Checking TPS Voltage?

#21
BTW: I've said this a ton of times.
For "100%" stock setups with surging problems
1) Read the codes
2) Put on a new *Ford* IAB/IAC
3) Put on a new *Ford* EGR.

THEN, you start to look at other things.

For people with a cone air filter on the end of the MAF, engine bay air filter, C&L, or ProM 75mm, then sorry that's your problem! *I* didn't tell you to get any of those!


i have posted this a few times and still got no real help
i have heads with 2.1 intake 1.6 exhaust and a cam with 570 lift and around a 220 duration,
can i fix my surging idle or isthe only fix mass air or blower????
 
#22
stang&2Birds said:
[on soapbox] :)
Because it was *not* the adjusting of the TPS that fixed the surging. People strip the bolt holes, spend money, and waste time screwing around doing stupid things. THEN, they spread their BS to others. And, other people GET SCREWED from the BAD information.

There's a TON of things that can cause surging and that can make the "surging go away". However, screwing around with the TPS is not one of them.

*I* care about telling people THE TRUTH and stopping the BS MYTHs. If YOU go around telling people that adding a 12-foot wing helped you to reduce your qtr mile time by 1 second, then you know what? You look "FOOLISH/Stupid" to the people that know better. Do YOU want to look "FOOLISH/Stupid"? I know that *I* don't. So, *I* get PO'd when other people give me bad information. and then *I* go on to tell that BS to others.

Yes, *I* do make mistakes. EVERYONE DOES! But, spreading KNOWN BS is WRONG - Period!

I've mentioned before that I taught (EE/CS) for 8 semesters. A GOOD teacher will always tell people the "best possible" knowledge they know and they will NOT spread BS. Of course, as new things are learned over time, and we find out that old *beliefs* were, in fact, wrong. But, that is VERY DIFFERENT that PURPOSELY spreading BS!
[off soapbox] :)



BTW: I think that because I used to teach, and I still mentor younger engineers (I've been a Principal Engineer / System Architect for over 10 years), trying to be as accurate as possible is important to me.
Click to expand...


Which penitentiary did you teach at? LOL

There are certainly better methods of getting your point point across that don't include an attempt to belittle a post that is made prior to yours. As I recall, this is a "discussion board". With that in mind, perhaps you could explain in laymen's terms the proper procedure for setting TPS and also the benefit of a properly set TPS. Like most, I've also not read 900+ pages of any EEC manual. I'm sure I'd be completely comatose if I had. My read knowledge of the EEC applies specifically to those items I've taken the time to go in a research in order to get an answer to a specific question. I'd love to know exactly what the cost/benefit of having a properly set TPS is vs. one that is not correctly set.
 
#23
Daggar said:
Which penitentiary did you teach at? LOL

There are certainly better methods of getting your point point across that don't include an attempt to belittle a post that is made prior to yours. As I recall, this is a "discussion board". With that in mind, perhaps you could explain in laymen's terms the proper procedure for setting TPS and also the benefit of a properly set TPS. Like most, I've also not read 900+ pages of any EEC manual. I'm sure I'd be completely comatose if I had. My read knowledge of the EEC applies specifically to those items I've taken the time to go in a research in order to get an answer to a specific question. I'd love to know exactly what the cost/benefit of having a properly set TPS is vs. one that is not correctly set.
Click to expand...

Applause! Applause! :cheers:

Friendly discussions are encouraged - that's how we all learn. A caustic approach closes the minds that otherwise would be enlightened.

My personal experience with TPS & idle:
TPS setting can affect idle speed and quality. These cars are so old that the sensors and wiring have shifted from the original factory specs. That means it sometimes works exactly like the book says and sometimes you have to play with the “adjustments” to get it to work.
 
#24
stang&2Birds said:
It should be on the "yahoo" site.

Also, you can find it by searching for "Tom Cloud"

or

EEC IV Technical Documentation, from allfordmustangs.com
A most read guide to the inner workings of the EEC IV PCM.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/techarticles/EECIV_Technical_Doc.zip
Click to expand...

I appreciate the link :nice:

I cannot find the GUFB in PDF format though.
I don't suppose you have a link to that as well?

jason
 
#28
JimBowy said:
I have a Ford document here that states how to modify and set the TPS voltage...
Click to expand...
I SAY PURE BS!!

Hmm, read my TPS page? You're taking about the "Level C" TPS that is NOT used on the stangs or newer cars.

Feel free to prove me wrong!


If you bothered to READ:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/Mustang-TPS-FAQ.html
Ford did have an older style TPS (Level C) that was used mostly with the POS EEC-III's computers. Those "Level C" TPS units had to be adjusted. ... When Ford switched to the EEC-IV's they still left the old TB's on some models for a while until the next update of the engine components. Also, until ~1989, Ford had problems making the D/RD TPS units with a proper seal from water. So, they kept using the Level C units until they where sure they could make the new TPS units reliable and also update the all of the needed TB's.
 
#29
Daggar said:
Which penitentiary did you teach at? LOL

There are certainly better methods of getting your point point across that don't include an attempt to belittle a post that is made prior to yours.
Click to expand...
What? I "belittle your post" because I DISAGREE? That's PURE BS! I did NOT attack you personally.

What school do YOU go to? Were people able to present FALSE information to the class?

You said: "people get results by adjusting the TPS"

I said: THEY DO NOT - PERIOD!

Sorry, saying that "an adjusted TPS helped at idle/etc" makes as much sense as saying that your PC runs better when you wear a blue shirt. It has NO BASIS in reality - NONE! (read my TPS FAQ for the "one exception - if the TPS is *BAD* and has a flat spot. A BAD sensor is NOT a GOOD sensor and it's foolish to keep it since there can be other bad spots).


If you and others want to think that the EEC is controlled by super intelligent space aliens and does magical and mystical things, that's fine.

But, do you start you start SCREWING UP OTHERS PEOPLES LIVES, then I hope that there are people that step in.

Want and EXAMPLE! Ask b58tt!!!

Here is the "classic newbie". He's been screwing around with the TPS for over 3 weeks. In that time, his car runs like crap. So, do ANY OF YOU CARE AT ALL that this person is WASTING HIS TIME?

Now, THINK!!! b58tt is likely driving his car, he's likely a teenager. Hmm, a teenager with a 3-10X likely possibility of getting in an accident, with a fast car, that runs like a POS. Hmm, THINK!!!!!

This person WHO EVER it is "at the time", could be driving next to YOU, your parents, your daughter or son, your wire, your GF, your brother or sister, your family members, your friends, and so on.

Instead of spreading BS that has TONS of FACTS to DISPROVE it, how about helping for REAL?


As I said, there are MANY MANY reasons why a car can start to run better or worse. Saying that it was because of the "adjusted the TPS" is FOOLISH!



I have BETTER things to do than to try to convince people that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth. GET A TWEEECER, do some tests, LEARN about the scientific method (that should have been learned in high school).
 
#31
stang&2Birds said:
I'm not sure where I got the pdf version, or how long I've had it. I may not have gotten it from the web? Try the "yahoo site" again. Someone with a HS link was going to upload it for me. It's ~1.2MB
Click to expand...
That was it.
I thought they had the text format there.

thanks
 
#32
vristang said:
That was it.
I thought they had the text format there.
thanks
Click to expand...
Yup, now there's a text version and pdf version. :)

I don't mind discussing things when people have at least taken the time to read the relevant documents. But, when people just spout gibberish because "it's what they saw", that's the same as saying that the Sun revolves around the Earth because that's "what I see".

BTW: YES, there are still people that VERY MUCH believe that the the Sun revolves around the Earth and will resort to personal attacks and so on to defend their bogus belief. Just look at the people that SWEAR that we never put a man on the moon. <rolleyes> Yup, they REFUSE to admits the TONS of evidence. We can send a satellite to Mars to take pictures with resolutions down to 3 feet. Hmm, how hard would it be for ANY country to send a satellite to the moon, to the locations we said we landed, take pictures, and then PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT THE U.S. LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING!!!!! Yikes!! ;) Yea, IMHO, some people may want to seek professional help because of their paranoia. :)

For $200, ANY person that knows assembler can get a logic analyzer and see the code for themselves as it executes on the EEC CPU (heck, even High school students now know assembler). You can NOT deny that! Also, ANYONE can but an EECSUCKA (under $100) and see what the code is in their EEC. Of course, maybe the people that did the EECSUCKA, Microsoft, and so on ALL conspired to "modify" the code before it gets logged to the PC.

I could give a rat's *ss if they did. I have my own custom hardware and software that I use. :) Although, I have been thinking of getting the latest EECSUCKA. Maybe they DO LIE about what's read out of the EEC because "the government" wants it kept a secret to avoid people getting 100MPG and 600HP. ;)

You can now see why many of the "tech heads" avoid stangnet and corral.

Have fun! I Got fun stuff to do. :)
 
#33
Hmm, seems like Motes no longer offers the EECSUCKA or even the son of the EECSUCKA. He now has
Ostrich - Real Time ECM Emulator
FORDEMU
http://www.moates.net/


For the old EECSUCKA circuit & program, along with other cool stuff (like the DOS-based "EEC simulator" - hangs after some period of time), see:

http://www.kvitek.com/ford/
eectch98.zip Technical notes on EEC IV MCU (80 pages PDF document)
eec-info.zip Miscellaneous EEC IV info (diagnostic codes, wiring, etc)
eecsk111.zip EECSucka - a ROM dumper for the EEC-IV (schematics, DOS executable)
asm8061_100.zip Intel 8061 assembler (Win32 executable and C source code)
dis8061_115.zip Intel 8061 disassembler (Win32 executable and C source code, plus A9L ROM image layout)
a9l_dump.zip Classic A9L ROM image (Mustang 89-93, E9ZF-12A650-AA)
eeccalib.zip Calibration info (A9L, J4J1, U4P0, X3Z)
deec02a.zip EEC IV simulator -- runs ROM images on a PC


Yea, people have been fooling around with the EEC since the time when there was only DOS! No Windows 3.1, no Windows95, no Windows98, etc. So, when I say that I no longer find modifying code and doing other things "fun and exciting", you can see why.

BTW: High School students now work on projects that have 10-100 times more compute power and abilities. The HARD part is the design of the system, equations, tuning, trade-offs, and so on. But, the students just need to know the equations and the basic architecture, and they can design and code from there.
 
#34
Stang2birds, you don't need to get all huffy about it. He posted something he thought was fact. Look at Professional Products throttle bodies, yes that's right they come with an adjustable tps plate. He wasn't intentionally spreading BS. Maybe a misconception but it's a common one.


EDIT: Don't know how I found this. Didn't realize it was so old. Sorry all.
 
#35
^^^^Wow.
I had forgotten all about this thread.

According to the Ford documentation on the TPS, there is NO need to 'adjust' the tps.
If you are within tolerance, the computer will self zero the base setting.

According to many hobbyists, there does seem to be some benefit to setting the tps to a tighter range, but I can't see the reason for it. I'm not going to say that the affect is 'in your head' but I can't understand why it makes a difference.
According to the EEC-IV code, it should make no difference at all.

As far as the Pro. Products TB's...
Can you provide a link to these instructions?
Possibly there is some justification there as to 'why' the tps needs to be adjusted.



jason
 
#36
I have to be honest here, THIS is why stang.net has such a bad reputation for tech help.

75% of the members here are your average Mustang owner looking for help. I would say there are some very helpful members here, HISSIN50 comes to mind. He has helped me out a TON. But there are a few overly-knowledgable members here who like to show off....as it were. I understand you are being helpful and trying to steer people in the right direction. But you have to remember who you are dealing with.

A lot of these posts come off like this....

You need to set your HGRAK to ~~.bv859 and move your HHJIL to .89 past DOP but do NOT move it above 45.657~``V.

Complete gibberish to most of us. While I appreciate the info...sometimes it isn't needed. Most of the time you are just cutting and pasting info to back up your opinion. An opinion that very well could be 100% accurate, but there isn't a need to go THAT deep into it.

This is a perfect case...where the forrest is being blocked out by the trees. The question at hand was how do you adjust your TPS. There is NO need to read 900 pages of Ford tech information. Most of us are running aftermarket TBs, which DO require adjusting the TPS. With my stock TPS on an aftermarket TB, I was reading .6. When I drilled out the screw holes and adjusted the TPS to .97, my car idled MUCH better. I don't need to read 900 pages of Ford info to know that adjusting my TPS HELPED my car.

Plus if you come off condensending, your information will tend to be ignored. Again, you may be 100% correct and you may be the most knowledgable person out there....but if you don't post your info in a way that the average guy can understand...and you come off like a condensending know-it-all....you really aren't helping anybody. Look at what you said in my Tweecer thread. You said "with an e-cam and 1.7 rockers your MAFS is the least of your worries". What the hell does that even mean? Were you trying to be helpful? Because it came off leaving me with more questions than answers.

I am just saying, if you want to help someone by utilizing your wealth of knowledge, just pay attention to the way your information is presented.
 
#38
stang&2Birds said:
What? I "belittle your post" because I DISAGREE? That's PURE BS! I did NOT attack you personally.

What school do YOU go to? Were people able to present FALSE information to the class?

You said: "people get results by adjusting the TPS"

I said: THEY DO NOT - PERIOD!
Click to expand...

You may want to go back and review. It's not my post I was referring to.
 
#40
vristang said:
^^^
And the pot has officially been stirred.
Click to expand...


I am not trying to stir the pot, insult anybody, or hurt anyones feelings. I am just voicing my personal opinion on the subject matter. It is tough, for the average guy, to sift through and understand a lot of the technical info shared on here. Too many abbreviations, too many overlytechnical terms. It gets confusing for the rest of us dummies. Just pointing it out, that's all.
 
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