Crappy Rose Festival incident.

[codemonkey]

So today I decided to take my girlfriend and her kids to the Rose Festival. While standing in line at one of the kiddie rides (teacup or somethign like that) some guys started yelling. There were people crowding around this, and two people started fighting. They came forward and one of them knocked into my girlfriend's three year old daughter. I yelled at them to knock it off (not exact words of course, but this board censors cuss words).

Naturally, these guys stop fighting, and surround me instead. I start getting a lot of threats hurled at me, from everything to they are going to "beat me down" to explicity threatening to shoot and stab me. They surround me completely, and I have guys behind me and in front of me, yelling threats.

Many of you who know me, know I am a very non-confrontational person. I hate fighting. (I hate it so much, I worked as a bouncer for 2 1/2 years to protect one of my best friends, who was a bartender). I am one of those guys who you really have to push in a corner to get a fight out of. You really have to ask for it. That being said, I am also 6'-2" and 275 pounds, so that doesn't happen often, thankfully.

But even with my physical size and bouncer experience, 20 guys could pretty much beat me to death. This is pretty obvious. Had one of them decided to jump me, all of them would have jumped in and I would have been creamed. Luckily the portland police swarmed in and grabbed a bunch of them. Of course, immediately people start screaming racial harassment (these guys were all black) but thats a whole other post.

But this gets me to thinking. I am an innocent bystander, there really wasnt anything I could have done to avoid this type of conflict. I could have easily been beaten severely, maybe even to death, because I didnt want people figthing and shoving over children. I am now thinking of getting a concealed weapons permit, and start carrying.

My question is: Am I overreacting? Sure I wouldnt need to carry at all times, but in incidents like this, just brandishing could have saved my life. I'd like to hear some feedback, please dont turn it into a flamewar though.

 

[The Factor]

Wow sorry to hear that, just add beer and you have instant a..holes. Well about your CCW permit that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the indvidual.If you dont have a bad temper, whitch it sounds like you dont and you only use it if you or loved ones and or friends life are threatned or feel that great bodily harm is something thats coming your way.But you have to be careful branishing a weopon.Also if you ever pull gun you better be ready to use it or it could cost you your life or someone elses.You have to ask yourself if you could really do it.What happen to you today is a prime example, what if you would of pulled your gun today, and then that provoked them to rush you, "if there on drugs and or drunk" there not going to care about the gun.Then you put yourself in a position were you have to use it and instead of having a story to tell your friends you'll be telling your attorney and or judge if you shot or killed someone.Unless they pull a knife and are within so many feet of you like a couple of feet or have it in the throwing position then distance dosent matter, then more than liikely you have the wright to shoot and to stop the attack, but just because you feel threatoned is not probably going to be enough and you'll definately need a good attorney.I dont have a problem with ccw permits, actually I thinks is great that the states we live in allow it because alot dont.You just have to make sure you can handle the responsibility. Goodluck with your decision

 

[Rootus]

Am I overreacting?

No, does not sound like it to me.

Sure I wouldnt need to carry at all times

Then what would be the point of getting the permit? It is not easy to predict when you are going to find yourself in a situation requiring deadly force to defend yourself.

but in incidents like this, just brandishing could have saved my life.

Or gotten you killed.

1. Do not pull out a gun until you are ready to shoot it.

2. Brandishing it as a threat is a bad idea -- and illegal almost everywhere unless you are in a situation where you feel in imminent danger of severe injury or death. It could also be considered escalation (now see #4).

3. Even if you have a gun on you, the best advice is always to run if you can, preferrably screaming like a little schoolgirl to attract as much attention (witnesses) as possible. You can rationalize later to soothe your ego, but you want to be alive to do the rationalizing. The gun is the last resort, period.

4. Doing anything to make yourself the target of a grand jury is going to cost you $10,000. Actually going to trial will clear $100,000 easily.

In the middle of Rose Festival, around a lot of people (and with cops fairly close by it sounds)... and in Multnomah County on top of that ... pulling a gun in the situation you were in would probably have been a huge mistake. I do not think you are overreacting, however I would strongly recommend that you consider all the reasons you might want to carry a concealed handgun, and educate yourself as to when it is appropriate to use it, and what the potential consequences are.



Dave

 

[stock50LX]

With the broad use of drugs today, you are probably not going to be faced with a rational adversary if you are packing. The situation you found yourself in probably had the best possible outcome for you. I question the motivation of the two men fighting if you became the target based on your verbal defense of children. That incident will probably color the attitude of the children, and you too, for years ahead.

 

[SMOKEDYA]

Well i'm not shure how oregon works with ccw's? but in washington if i remember right even if you have a ccw you cant take it to where there is alcohol being served, school's, fed. building's and so forth! I could be wrong as for it's been a couple of year's now since mine expired and for all i know the law's have changed? But here it's like they said even tho you have a ccw you can still get in trouble for brandishing, and here you only get a couple of complaint's in a period of time then you loose your permit and will never get one again! BUT like i said i could be wrong on some of this and these are what i remember from the laws in WASHINGTON? So if ya get one keep your head on stright and dont let it go to it! (your head) I think it's the best thing to turn and leave! peace




john

 

[Darkness]

In any case you did the right thing, stalling those morons until the cops showed up was perfect.

 

[codemonkey]

you guys all bring up some valid points. Luckily this sort of thing rarely happens, but it still kind of sucks. I'm just glad the PD showed up when they did. I overheard the cop yelling at one of them that they'd been starting trouble all morning, and that they were watching them.

I dont know if I'll do the CCW thing. It will probably be more trouble than its worth.

And as much as I hate to say it, I may just start avoiding Portland in general for certain activities. I've noticed that I see crap like this a lot more in the city. Whenever I go to other activities in small towns or suburban type areas, there is always less trouble. Hell, even the county fairs are pretty cool and without incident. There are plenty of kids stuff, car shows, stuff like that, that are not in an urban environment where the people tend to be more ignorant and dangerous.

Ironically enough, the LAST time I went to the rose festival, a few years ago, we witnessed a huge brawl just outside the gates as we were leaving. This was a bunch of kids, probably high school age. Thankfully, we were nowhere near that one, but still, its not very comforting to have a bunch of people fighting around you. You really never know what can happen. I think this is the last time I go to the Rose Festival for a while.

 

[1993c0bra]

Thats why im taking Juijitsu and karate so I can at least defend myself, if something like that comes up,

 

[Darkness]

Thats why im taking Juijitsu and karate so I can at least defend myself, if something like that comes up,

You think that you can beat 20 guys on meth with some karate moves??? Heck even a 9mm has trouble stoping one of those fools!!!

 

[wazazzle]

you did the right thing. in a moment like that it's hard to hold back when all you want to do is explode. i worked as a bouncer and bodyguard a few years back, your main concern is the safety of your girlfriend and her little daughter. if it broke out in a fight, i could almost guarantee that both of the girls would been injured somehow - if not attacked too. using your head and not your muscles was the right thing to do. however by not backing down you also proved you're more than willing to bash a few head in. sure 20 guys can back a pitbull into a corner, but nobody wants to be the first to be bitten by the pitbull! (hmm ever thought about having a pit or rott?) they also double as car theft detterants just remember to crack the window open and h2o for them.

 

[codemonkey]

question the motivation of the two men fighting if you became the target based on your verbal defense of children.

These guys fighting weren't strangers, in fact I think they were friends. All the people in the group knew each other, so I think it was just a couple of buddies who had a disagreement. I'm sure glad I dont have friends like that!

3. Even if you have a gun on you, the best advice is always to run if you can, preferrably screaming like a little schoolgirl to attract as much attention (witnesses) as possible. You can rationalize later to soothe your ego, but you want to be alive to do the rationalizing. The gun is the last resort, period

I agree a gun would be a last resort. However, in my experiences with guys like these, if you take off running, this will antagonize them. The whole reason they were "acting tough" is because they were all in a group, against one guy. One on one, they are likely pretty weak. When they see you run, they know you're scared, and take advantage of that to do a "beat down". I was scared, but I didn't show it. Thats usually the best way to deal with these type of people. (wannabee gangsters).

you did the right thing. in a moment like that it's hard to hold back when all you want to do is explode. i worked as a bouncer and bodyguard a few years back, your main concern is the safety of your girlfriend and her little daughter. if it broke out in a fight, i could almost guarantee that both of the girls would been injured somehow - if not attacked too. using your head and not your muscles was the right thing to do. however by not backing down you also proved you're more than willing to bash a few head in. sure 20 guys can back a pitbull into a corner, but nobody wants to be the first to be bitten by the pitbull! (hmm ever thought about having a pit or rott?) they also double as car theft detterants just remember to crack the window open and h2o for them.

Yeah, one of the things I learned as a bouncer is how to keep things from escalating. Its more or less keeping your mouth shut. No matter what they said to me I didn't respond, and instead just looked people in the eye and stood there. Had I responded back with name calling and yelling, I'm sure it would have gotten physical pretty quick.

 

[Rootus]

When they see you run, they know you're scared, and take advantage of that to do a "beat down". I was scared, but I didn't show it. Thats usually the best way to deal with these type of people. (wannabee gangsters).

If you attempt to face them down, and that fails, then you're in trouble. First, they're probably going to beat you, and perhaps kill you. Second, if you use the gun and kill one or more of them, then if you ultimately survive the experience you are going to do jail time. Lots of it. The law provides for self defense, but that argument goes into the toilet very quickly if you escalate the situation (and attempting to face them down is most certainly escalating).

Best of luck whatever you choose to do,

Dave

 

[1993c0bra]

You think that you can beat 20 guys on meth with some karate moves??? Heck even a 9mm has trouble stoping one of those fools!!!

haha well i didnt mean taking 20 guys at once maybe ill be able to run fast enough from them dudes with a little bit of training ive received.

 

[codemonkey]

If you attempt to face them down, and that fails, then you're in trouble. First, they're probably going to beat you, and perhaps kill you. Second, if you use the gun and kill one or more of them, then if you ultimately survive the experience you are going to do jail time. Lots of it. The law provides for self defense, but that argument goes into the toilet very quickly if you escalate the situation (and attempting to face them down is most certainly escalating).

One can say it is escalating, but as I said, these are wannabee gangsters. These are guys who get invovled with "gangs" or pretend they are in a gang, and usually run in groups for one reason: alone they are weak, together they are strong.

That being said, the mentality of these people is quite different from mine or yours. We see a fight as something we'd rather not do, and something to avoid at all costs. Its a problem, and a bad thing. They see it as something to find, something to do. Generally these types are very anxious to prove how "tough" they are, and they base much of their personality and self worth on their fighting ability. So all they have to do is find someone weaker than them, and they will attack them to maintain thier image.

I am convinced, based on many things, that had I apologized, or try to run away, this would have encouraged them to jump me. They look for any sign of weakness and pounce on it, because It's a chance for them to impress everyone with how tough they are. Sad, but true.

 

[hungrymonkey]

I have my CCW, and I probably would not of produced my sidearm in that situation.

The opportunity for the weapon to be taken from you sounded pretty high. Plus it was in a crowd, which is a high liability for hitting a bystander.
Also, the portland PD probably would of taken you down and ignored the other people.

The only you could of done is exactly what you did.
Not be overly aggressive and try to back up watching for sucker punches.

 

[D347643]

people starting yelling racial harrassment? thats absolutely ridiculous! i cant believe how bad portland has become lately and how overblown the whole racial thing is. Those guys were black and they sounded out control and they were taken down enough said....if those guys were white the cops still would have done the same thing!!! I doubt you would have heard any of the racial comments though. The people in Portland are so goddamn quick to jump on the oppression bandwagon it makes me wan to vomit. You did the right thing though....glad nobody got hurt. Too bad we have these monkeys wandering around portland causing trouble, its really sad.

Drew

 

[codemonkey]

I have my CCW, and I probably would not of produced my sidearm in that situation.

If I had a sidearm, I would not have produced it either, just from what happened. But if I would have been assaulted, and everyone started jumping in, I would at that time to defend myself. Only takes a few good stomps to the head to put you out of commission, and thats generally the tactic the "gangstas" take.

The opportunity for the weapon to be taken from you sounded pretty high. Plus it was in a crowd, which is a high liability for hitting a bystander.
Also, the portland PD probably would of taken you down and ignored the other people.

Yeah, I agree with you completely. Just exploring some of my options.

The only you could of done is exactly what you did.
Not be overly aggressive and try to back up watching for sucker punches.

Pretty much. As one guy said, stall em till the cops get there.
__________________

 

[ZeroCool]

you done good...hell, as many shootings that happen around me it is not worth it!

 

[lamrith]

I am sorry to hear what happened and I know I would have done the same thing (yell at them or give a block to knocl them away from kids)

BUT I will tell you right now a concealed would not have helped you and would have inflamed the situation as I am sure one of the guys behind you would have pulled and shot without waiting to see what happened..

 

[89MustangGX]

First, let me say that hind sight and being there are different. Only you were there and know what it was really like and how threatened you felt, etc.

No, onto my opinion...

I too probably would not have produced a weapon. If not for the simple fact that there were too many variables and other options still remaining. As a last resort, you would draw your weapon knowing that you have no other options and what you're doing will be the right thing. I don't think that I could say that about this situation.

With that said, the situation could have just as easily been the right time to produce. That's why if you carry, you carry all the time. Because you just never know.

If you're not the type of person who could make a descision like we are talking about here (or the one we have not talked about), do not even bother with a CCW. You will more than likely end up getting yourself or other people hurt if the situation ever came up again. You would be better off putting it out of mind completely and just resting on the fact that retreating is your best defense.

Even with a CCW retreating is still the best defense -- if you don't lose sight of that fact, you will probably make the right decision if the time comes.