dad has worries about UD pullies

[trinity_gt]

......and causing the oil pump gear to fail!?! WTF .....where do some of you get these ideas?

From research and basic knowledge of engine function.

Are you one of those that erroneously calls the harmonic damper on the 4.6 a "balancer"? Do you understand the concept of torsional vibration in a crankshaft and the need to dampen it? Do you understand the concept of harmonics and resonance? Do you know where the oil pump drive gear is, in the engine, relation to the harmonic damper?

And even though I disagree with him calling it a "balancer", this is what Sean Hyland says in his book "How to Build Max Performance 4.6-litre Ford Engines":

"The harmonic balancer is essential in providing a trouble-free service life for the crankshaft. The oil pump failures on engines using stock oil pumps can be attributed to a harmonic problem that manifests itself by breaking the oil pump gears.

The first instances of oil pump failure we encountered were the result of trying a small crankshaft flange instead of a balancer. There also seems to be increased instances of oil pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced diameter harmonic damper provided. SHM recently developed an underdrive harmonic balancer that retains 92% of the original mass." - pg 19

I now await proof from you that torsional vibration in the crank cannot cause oil pump failure on these motors.

 

[reenmachine]

 

[Gearbanger 101]

From research and basic knowledge of engine function.

Are you one of those that erroneously calls the harmonic damper on the 4.6 a "balancer"? Do you understand the concept of torsional vibration in a crankshaft and the need to dampen it? Do you understand the concept of harmonics and resonance? Do you know where the oil pump drive gear is, in the engine, relation to the harmonic damper?

And even though I disagree with him calling it a "balancer", this is what Sean Hyland says in his book "How to Build Max Performance 4.6-litre Ford Engines":

"The harmonic balancer is essential in providing a trouble-free service life for the crankshaft. The oil pump failures on engines using stock oil pumps can be attributed to a harmonic problem that manifests itself by breaking the oil pump gears.

The first instances of oil pump failure we encountered were the result of trying a small crankshaft flange instead of a balancer. There also seems to be increased instances of oil pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced diameter harmonic damper provided. SHM recently developed an underdrive harmonic balancer that retains 92% of the original mass." - pg 19

I now await proof from you that torsional vibration in the crank cannot cause oil pump failure on these motors.

Yes, I’m aware that the modular engines are internally balanced and to a certain extent I agree with you. But in the same instance the cases being referred to are stock engines being spun past their normal parameters with either the addition of excessive horsepower or RPM. I guess if you bought a lowball cheap set of piggy back U/D pulleys, then engine harmonics might be increased to a certain extent that over a looooong period of time could contribute to some form of driveline failure, but for your average Joe just looking to kick up another 100hp out of his 4.6L, it never seems to be a problem.

That being said, it’s interesting that Sean Hyland Mororsports claims to have revolutionized the theory of driveline harmonics by developing a balancer that magically cures this issue. A more accurate description of the company that is SHM brings the words “Hack Artists” to mind. I live not more than about 3 1/2hrs from them and they’ve screwed up more mod motors than every other specialty company combined. He’s probably one of the last people I’d be taking advice from in regards to the understanding of Fords line of Modular engines. It’s a good theory, and in extreme cases a correct one, but for every one person who says adding a set of U/D pulleys screwed their motor, I’ll show you 50 that have gone 100,000+ without so much as a hiccup!

Hardly Newbie....and I recal you being one of the first ones to pipe up about it yourself. Back up that statement!

 

[reenmachine]

OK, here's the backup you requested...

Hardly Newbie....and I recal you being one of the first ones to pipe up about it yourself. Back up that statement!

Yes, indeed! What I said was:

Gotta love it when someone makes a statement like that with no explanation...

...which I stand by entirely. Popping in, making an alarmist broad statement:

dont do it underdrive pullies cause the oil pump gear to fail!

...and offering no explanation is totally bogus.

Regardless of whatever reputation SHM may have, these are valid points about dampers. You are also, in my opinion, correct in observing that this problem generally occurs in engines that have been modified to run way outside of factory parameters.

Go to any forum for any type of car and you will see this same topic absolutely beaten to death.

These potentially harmful harmonic vibrations, by definition, occur at certain discrete RPM ranges (frequencies) and the more time spent dwelling at those frequencies, the more effect there is. For example, I've seen photos of catastrophic crankshaft failure on a small block Ford due to harmonic damper removal, but this was in an airplane in which one drones on for hours at the same RPM, which happened to be at or near a harmonic frequency in that poor sucker's engine.

In most automotive applications, there is enough variance in RPM (normal driving) that one quickly passes through these harmonic ranges without ill effect. However, if, for example, you do mainly highway driving at a set RPM for long periods of time you may want to consider these issues more carefully.

 

[reenmachine]

if you're bored...

If you've got some time to burn, check out this thread:

http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30921

When the 350Z parts started to come out, there was a months-long debate over this very issue, mostly between a couple of people who knew what they were talking about and a million who were just repeating crap they had heard. It was rather entertaining, at times lapsing into discussions of religion and philosophy as they relate to harmonic dampers.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

 

[Mr GT 02]

I'm Surprised no one has mentioned the Steeda Timing Adjuster.

If your gonna get the Steeda Pullies. Then u SHOULD get the Timing adjuster also. I heard that it Complimets the pullies if u set the timing to 14* u should feel even better gains. knocking off some 2 tenths of a second.

Am I right?

 

[NiteRydaGT]

I'm Surprised no one has mentioned the Steeda Timing Adjuster.

If your gonna get the Steeda Pullies. Then u SHOULD get the Timing adjuster also. I heard that it Complimets the pullies if u set the timing to 14* u should feel even better gains. knocking off some 2 tenths of a second.

Am I right?

That's true that they do compliment each other but you can get the same effects of the timing adjuster from a custom tune or chip. I have heard that the t/a will sometimes bounce off the timing point originally set.

 

[CottonBurnerz]

I also asked my dad about most of my mods that i've installed in the car. He think that my car is already fast and doesn't need to be modify. He thinks everything is a waste. So, I just said screw it and ordered the parts. Once the parts came, he looks happy and gladly helped me install them...

I have no problem with the u/d pullies so far. EXCEPT for that one time after I installed it. I forgot to plug back in the alternator charger wire to the battery... lol. I made a thread about it on here somewhere a while back :shy:

 

[XStanger]

I live here in Vegas and most of the guys out here do not recommend the pulley's either. They say that with the extreme heat of the summer, the pulley's turn the water pump too slow at low rpm's which could cause overheating issues.

 

[tomustang]

just tell your dad you need 4.10's to spin the motor faster

haha, i second the motion.

 

[FallenPhoenix]

my friend has a set on his '03 for a year at least with no problems. This is in the middle of West Texas too.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I also asked my dad about most of my mods that i've installed in the car. He think that my car is already fast and doesn't need to be modify. He thinks everything is a waste. So, I just said screw it and ordered the parts. Once the parts came, he looks happy and gladly helped me install them...

Hahaha, that's funny. When I was younger my dad used to do the same thing. I used to get excuses like, "Oh, so and so said it will blow your engine up", or "I was told by so and so that it you've got any sort of modifications the insurance company won't cover you if you're in an accident". Meanwhile, it was just because dad knew that I'm be soaking up his garage for the next week installing it and he was trying to keep me out.

As a matter of fact, he tried to give the the insurance excuse just the other day when I told him I was springing for a Blower.

 

[raph130]

*

 

[Go HoTO!]

I've had mine on for months. No charging problems, no cooling problems. Isn't it true that since the accessories aren't pulling as hard with the u/d pullies on it extends the life of the water pump? I thought I read that somewhere.

That's what we call in the sales world...."a stretch".

 

[Go HoTO!]

Back to your original questions:

I think your father has some good reasons for concerns. If UDP's really did that much, I think he would be completely justified. But, they don't. With only 5 - 10 rwhp gains at the most, this is why there are so few complaints.

I have them on my car and have only noticed the steering to be tighter at or near idle speeds. You will never feel 5 - 10 rwhp with the SOTP, so don't expect much. Your wallet will feel them more than your arse.

 

[Seraphitia102]

i believe (in most cases) that stock cars last the longest.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

wtf? the crank has nothing to do with the oil pump. the distributer is turned by the cam which in turn spins the oil pump. simple as that. the damper absorbs vibration and balances the motor. ud pulley does nothing but steal less power from the crank since the diameter is smaller.

Ummmm, wrong motor dude.....we're talking 4.6's here.

 

[raph130]

*

 

[trinity_gt]

4.6, 5.0, 5.7, 1345.0, it makes no difference. a pulley wont "harm" and "break" stuff in your engine.

Oh man...

The oil pump in the modular motor is located on the crank snout.

That hole in the middle slips over the crank snout and those little teeth in the middle engage mating parts on the crankshaft itself driving the pump gears within. On the crank snout...again. As such, the drive gear is in direct contact with the snout and subject to all the vibration and harmonics the snout sees.

Unless you're at least familiar with crankshaft torsional vibration and why it is that Ford builds every modular motor with a specifically engineered torsional vibration damper as part of the crank pulley, I respectfully suggest you not inject misleading nonsense into a thread like this. Jeez...the Mustang mod motors don't even have a "distributer {which} is turned by the cam which in turn spins the oil pump"