Desperately need electrical help!

Hi,
No. Doubt it’s PATS related. If PATS was enabled or malfunctioning, you’d have a hostile Pony, indeed.
Grab your VOM & Check...
1) Clutch safety switch.(?) You recently bypassed this, or has this been bypassed for a longer time period? Clutch pedal safety switch operation(?)
2) Fuse block, under passenger side kick
panel. Test the fuses within.
3) Fuse block, engine compartment passenger side atop fender well, starter Solenoid relay located closest to firewall.
Solenoid wire fuse also present. (Read cover).
Get a helper. Turn the key to start, if you hear the Solenoid relay click, and fuse is good, you should have power to Solenoid. If not, de-energized, check continuity from Solenoid Relay to Solenoid to rule out a broken wire.
Good luck!
-John

Hi,
Is this one of the simple units that install in to the fuse block that initiates the relays simply to fire the starter solenoid with KO, Or a component of a remote starter setup using an aftermarket FOB?
Do you have a diagram or know exactly where the remote switch spiders in?
This does narrow things down, didn’t know about that, least’ that all works..
PATS may throw an EEC code if there’s something going on, will flash specific to what state it’s in.
Repeat flash on the dash when enabled & in lockout, a handshake sequence on the dash if all is well, X 3 I believe..(not gospel, will find out)
Did you check with a Scantool Yet ?
Good luck!
-John

Hi,
No problem! Jumping that 4 pin may cause you more problems, or fry something. Happy to help you play it safe by posting the dealer tech manual’s diagram & non Customer Codes on Monday when I’m back at the Shop, if nothing shows prior to then.
A Voltage measurement to chassis ground where your VOM is in parallel, not in series is the only test I’d feel comfortable with in that scenario.
Again, I’d be happy to post that info for you then. If that connector’s what I think it is..
one wire is (+)12VDC
one wire is Ground,
one is a TX
one is a Rx.

Hi,
Yes, with a Scantool that has the capabilities, and diagrams to reference where it’s safe to test in a specific fashion. PATS has caused many headaches, if presented to me- I’ll deal with it- but have not (yet) seen a PATS impaired car run flawlessly with only the switch not firing off the starter.
1) When you start the car with the remote, is your key in and in the RUN position?
2) Does it start if there’s no key in the ignition?
By no means does the above mean it can’t happen, so maybe we’ll both learn something. I welcome that.
That in mind, as the clock ticks away, wanted you to see this. It’s not my material, but will give you some insight.
https://themustangsource.com/servic...ti-Theft_System_(PATS)_%97_Pinpoint_Tests.pdf
Happy reading!!
-John

Silver Bullitt said:

HALLELUIA!!! PTL!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
Turns out there was a loose nut behind the steering wheel ..... that would be ME!

LSS, according to my Chilton Manual, Section 8, the Clutch Pedal Position (CPP) Switch is located at the TOP of the Clutch Pedal.
Since this is a main cut-off, it was one of first things I checked, and it tested good. Therefore, went on to everything else described above.
Wracked my pea brain for the next few days as well as rattled a bunch of you folks with mis-information.
Weellllll, in the process of cleaning up a rat's nest of wiring under the dash, along with my extensive study of the wiring schematics,
I noticed another little switch located off in obscurity on the left side at the BASE of the Clutch Pedal.
Thought this was the Cruise Control DEACTIVATION Switch, but decided to test it as well. It failed!!
Hmmmm ...... back to the schematics and started tracing the color codes of the two switches' wiring.
Turns out the CPP Switch (which will not allow car to start unless clutch is engaged) is the one located ON THE SIDE OF THE PEDAL.
The Cruise Control Deactivation switch is the one located ON TOP OF THE PEDAL !!
As you can see, all along from the onset I thought the CPP was good, and that my issue had to have been with PATS. W-R-O-N-G!!!!

Lessons learned for many -
A BIG THANK YOU to all for your input and suggestions as Blue is now back on the road. Y'all are awesome!!
And thank YOU Mr. Chilton for my week long witch hunt from which I've learned soooooo much!

Click to expand...

Hi,
Very good! No worries about posting what’s on your mind, glad you held off on jumping that PATS connector. Saw this Monday.
Tracking automotive wiring issues is an aggravating task, have to really slow down to catch things, great that you went back through and nailed it.
Best of luck!
-John

Silver Bullitt said:

HALLELUIA!!! PTL!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
Turns out there was a loose nut behind the steering wheel ..... that would be ME!

LSS, according to my Chilton Manual, Section 8, the Clutch Pedal Position (CPP) Switch is located at the TOP of the Clutch Pedal.
Since this is a main cut-off, it was one of first things I checked, and it tested good. Therefore, went on to everything else described above.
Wracked my pea brain for the next few days as well as rattled a bunch of you folks with mis-information.
Weellllll, in the process of cleaning up a rat's nest of wiring under the dash, along with my extensive study of the wiring schematics,
I noticed another little switch located off in obscurity on the left side at the BASE of the Clutch Pedal.
Thought this was the Cruise Control DEACTIVATION Switch, but decided to test it as well. It failed!!
Hmmmm ...... back to the schematics and started tracing the color codes of the two switches' wiring.
Turns out the CPP Switch (which will not allow car to start unless clutch is engaged) is the one located ON THE SIDE OF THE PEDAL.
The Cruise Control Deactivation switch is the one located ON TOP OF THE PEDAL !!
As you can see, all along from the onset I thought the CPP was good, and that my issue had to have been with PATS. W-R-O-N-G!!!!

Lessons learned for many -
A BIG THANK YOU to all for your input and suggestions as Blue is now back on the road. Y'all are awesome!!
And thank YOU Mr. Chilton for my week long witch hunt from which I've learned soooooo much!

Click to expand...

Great read following your issues. I am having similar ones with my 2010 v6 coup. I replaced the clutch switch mounted on the side of the clutch peddle and did not fix issue of no start. Like you have tested all fuses etc. checked starter and when bypass direct to starter it works and engine turns over. I noticed the switch on the top of clutch peddle but have not tested it. Do you you photos of the switches on the clutch and which was was loose or needed replacing? Hoping this is my issue.

Delta1958 said:

Great read following your issues. I am having similar ones with my 2010 v6 coup. I replaced the clutch switch mounted on the side of the clutch peddle and did not fix issue of no start. Like you have tested all fuses etc. checked starter and when bypass direct to starter it works and engine turns over. I noticed the switch on the top of clutch peddle but have not tested it. Do you you photos of the switches on the clutch and which was was loose or needed replacing? Hoping this is my issue.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Just to rule it out first, is your PATS Security dash light flashing repetively once your key is in the on position, or does it flash 3 times and stop (meaning PATS “proves out”, all is well..)?. Once that’s been ruled out..
You replaced the side clutch pedal switch, the switch on the base of the pedal was the culprit in the above thread.
Did you physically remove the fuses to verify 100% they were good?
Have a DVOM? Key On..Check for 12V+ at the wire landing on the Neutral Safety Switch, (use the Chassis at a good spot where you hit bare metal for the other meter lead) and check the other side of the switch when the clutch pedal is in (Disengaged) so you’re certain power is continuing on.
(For These tests make sure the Car is in Neutral, E-Brake engaged, and disable the Inertia switch so- just in case- the car can’t start and jump forward and result in injury, property damage, etc.). “I didn’t run over your Miata, the Pony didn’t like it &went into a full Gallop”
Check the starter relay. You can have another press the clutch in (or prop the switch closed so the Car “thinks” the Clutch is pulled in) and put your finger on the starter relay to feel for the “click”, or pull it and reinstall it (if you propped the switch closed).. Can also temporarily remove a relay from one of the other sockets (Like Rear Window Defrost) and swap it out to check and see if yours is bad. If the 2nd relay doesn’t work, you’ll have to carefully trace the wiring, Fuses, links, until the issues located.
May even be the Solenoid wire to the Starter, or the Keyswitch (Not likely- but possible).
I’ll leave 2 diagrams below that are 2005-2010.. S197 Mustang, Manual Trans). Check all the fuses again & follow the wiring. Any questions, don’t hesitate to ask.
Good luck!
-John

08GT500 said:

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/pats_job_aid_2013.pdf

Hi,
Just to rule it out first, is your PATS Security dash light flashing repetively once your key is in the on position, or does it flash 3 times and stop (meaning PATS “proves out”, all is well..)?. Once that’s been ruled out..
You replaced the side clutch pedal switch, the switch on the base of the pedal was the culprit in the above thread.
Did you physically remove the fuses to verify 100% they were good?
Have a DVOM? Key On..Check for 12V+ at the wire landing on the Neutral Safety Switch, (use the Chassis at a good spot where you hit bare metal for the other meter lead) and check the other side of the switch when the clutch pedal is in (Disengaged) so you’re certain power is continuing on.
(For These tests make sure the Car is in Neutral, E-Brake engaged, and disable the Inertia switch so- just in case- the car can’t start and jump forward and result in injury, property damage, etc.). “I didn’t run over your Miata, the Pony didn’t like it &went into a full Gallop”
Check the starter relay. You can have another press the clutch in (or prop the switch closed so the Car “thinks” the Clutch is pulled in) and put your finger on the starter relay to feel for the “click”, or pull it and reinstall it (if you propped the switch closed).. Can also temporarily remove a relay from one of the other sockets (Like Rear Window Defrost) and swap it out to check and see if yours is bad. If the 2nd relay doesn’t work, you’ll have to carefully trace the wiring, Fuses, links, until the issues located.
May even be the Solenoid wire to the Starter, or the Keyswitch (Not likely- but possible).
I’ll leave 2 diagrams below that are 2005-2010.. S197 Mustang, Manual Trans). Check all the fuses again & follow the wiring. Any questions, don’t hesitate to ask.
Good luck!
-John

Click to expand...

John,
Info it greatly appreciated. I did check the starter relay as mentioned and it checks good. Checked using my volt meter and also with power test to make sure switch is engaging in relay. Will check all the other recommendations mentioned. Thanks for the wiring diagram. This will help.

Larry

Delta1958 said:

John,
Info it greatly appreciated. I did check the starter relay as mentioned and it checks good. Checked using my volt meter and also with power test to make sure switch is engaging in relay. Will check all the other recommendations mentioned. Thanks for the wiring diagram. This will help.

Larry

Click to expand...

John,
FYI, the light in the dash for PATs continues blinking when key is in on position. So based on that what would be first point of attack.

Hi,
Check for Codes by plugging in your Scantool,.
(Do you have a Scantool?)
Any recent work done to the Car just prior to this occurring?
How did this no crank issue present? Was the Car sitting, you sent to start it & this occurred, etc? Battery connected tight, Grounds from engine to Block, to Chassis, and to EEC are all tight with no corrosion.
Check your Battery voltage for a minimum 12VDC. All of your accessories work as they should, no issues?
Hear any “clicks” from the starter when you attempt to start it ?
The S197’s had an issue with water coming inside through the Cowl, or pools there. ending up in the passenger side foot wells. Was there any heavy rain around the time this began?
Sometimes the water enters the SJB and causes electrical problems, and the grounds become corroded. Shine a light up underneath and look for evidence of this.
Try locking your Car (leave your window down?), grub I’ll lock it with your Remote (FOB), try opening the door with the key and see what happens if you try & start it.
If you insert the key, unlock the steering column and moving the wheel from right to mom steering tilt up and down randomly while trying to start it.
Try leaving the key in the on position for several seconds and see if it ceases, then retry starting. If the receiver ring is operational, , it should reset it
Disconnect your Battery terminal for several minutes and see if this helps.
Do you have a spare key that has the same black plastic head on it as the one you’re using? Do you have a bare steel key?
Do you have a spare key that has the same black plastic head on it as the one you’re using? Do you have a bare steel key?
The most common problem with PATS is a broken wire or door switch that isn’t functioning correctly. Check all those basic things, see what you find.
Good luck!
PS: Does your fuel pump prime when the Key is turned on?

08GT500 said:

Hi,
Check for Codes by plugging in your Scantool,.
(Do you have a Scantool?)
Any recent work done to the Car just prior to this occurring?
How did this no crank issue present? Was the Car sitting, you sent to start it & this occurred, etc? Battery connected tight, Grounds from engine to Block, to Chassis, and to EEC are all tight with no corrosion.
Check your Battery voltage for a minimum 12VDC. All of your accessories work as they should, no issues?
Hear any “clicks” from the starter when you attempt to start it ?
The S197’s had an issue with water coming inside through the Cowl, or pools there. ending up in the passenger side foot wells. Was there any heavy rain around the time this began?
Sometimes the water enters the SJB and causes electrical problems, and the grounds become corroded. Shine a light up underneath and look for evidence of this.
Try locking your Car (leave your window down?), grub I’ll lock it with your Remote (FOB), try opening the door with the key and see what happens if you try & start it.
If you insert the key, unlock the steering column and moving the wheel from right to mom steering tilt up and down randomly while trying to start it.
Try leaving the key in the on position for several seconds and see if it ceases, then retry starting. If the receiver ring is operational, , it should reset it
Disconnect your Battery terminal for several minutes and see if this helps.
Do you have a spare key that has the same black plastic head on it as the one you’re using? Do you have a bare steel key?
Do you have a spare key that has the same black plastic head on it as the one you’re using? Do you have a bare steel key?
The most common problem with PATS is a broken wire or door switch that isn’t functioning correctly. Check all those basic things, see what you find.
Good luck!
PS: Does your fuel pump prime when the Key is turned on?

Click to expand...

Well, Lots of questions to review. Thanks for all the suggestions.
The car has been running fine. Don’t drive it often. It stays in my garage most of the time so not out in weather. No water issues.
The problem started when out one day and did not want to start. No noise at all just all gauges come on then nothing. No clicks or noise like dead battery. I thought it was clutch switch so depressed clutch few times and kept trying after 2-3 tries it started. No problems for several days. Then one evening when leaving a friends house same problem. Then started. Next day it would not start at all. Again suspected clutch switch. Replaced it and after two tries it started. Two days later again no start and now nothing. Will not make a sound. Charged battery and still nothing. All battery connections are clean and ground seems good. Checked relays and all good. Did find one bad relay for ac inside blower motor. It had not been working for several months so solved that issue.

Checked all fuses with test light and all seem good. Jumped the starter by bypassing at relay and starter works.

Tried doing reset with key in ignition for 15 -20 min in on position then off 5 min still nothing. Anti theft light still blinks constant fast when in on position.

Will keep checking to see if i caused a lose wire or something when replacing clutch switch.

Not sure what else to try.

Delta1958 said:

Well, Lots of questions to review. Thanks for all the suggestions.
The car has been running fine. Don’t drive it often. It stays in my garage most of the time so not out in weather. No water issues.
The problem started when out one day and did not want to start. No noise at all just all gauges come on then nothing. No clicks or noise like dead battery. I thought it was clutch switch so depressed clutch few times and kept trying after 2-3 tries it started. No problems for several days. Then one evening when leaving a friends house same problem. Then started. Next day it would not start at all. Again suspected clutch switch. Replaced it and after two tries it started. Two days later again no start and now nothing. Will not make a sound. Charged battery and still nothing. All battery connections are clean and ground seems good. Checked relays and all good. Did find one bad relay for ac inside blower motor. It had not been working for several months so solved that issue.

Checked all fuses with test light and all seem good. Jumped the starter by bypassing at relay and starter works.

Tried doing reset with key in ignition for 15 -20 min in on position then off 5 min still nothing. Anti theft light still blinks constant fast when in on position.

Will keep checking to see if i caused a lose wire or something when replacing clutch switch.

Not sure what else to try.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Do you have a Scantool? Pull the codes from the Cars computer & see the code(s) stored, it may help.
Have a Spare key with the plastic head like the one you’re using? Try that, make sure your key ring has nothing but the Cars key on it. Certain things can interfere.
Make sure you turn your steering wheel to where it’s locked, then try starting it.
Does your fuel
Pump run for a few seconds & shut off (prime) when you turn the key on when the car doesn’t start?
It sounds like it may be a connection from the ignition switch to a door switch (either- check both) or other wiring going to/from the Clutch, to the fuses in the passenger kick panel, out to the starter solenoid. Being intermittent, it’s more likely you have a wire or safety malfunctioning versus a key identity issue that’s causing PATS to immobilize your car- thinking the cars being stolen.
This happens a LOT with PATS, you’re not alone by any means.
As seen in the thread above, you’ll note that there’s a round Transceiver ring that surrounds your ignition switch underneath the plastic(s) of your steering column. Not certain of how familiar you are with PATS, but an embedded device in the black plastic head of the key, PATS system is programmed to identify it. There’s a control box that the ring is wired to which runs PATS, and disables/enables things when it reads the key.If you have anything else on your keychain, e.g., a Speedpass, another Car’s Key with a Plastic head- anything but a bare key, remove it..
If PATS fails completely, it’s usually done for, new key(S) (usually requires more than one key to be programmed) are purchased & a locksmith needs to program the system to accept it. A traveling locksmith can usually both provide keys, FOB, and reprogram. Your Insurance will cover a portion of this, as will AAA, if it comes down to that.
But either way, you want to rule out a broken wire, switch, etc. It’s not always easy, but what is?
Check all your grounds. Remove, clean, add electric grease, fasten down- tight.
Its more often a broken wire/switch when function is intermittent. Some cut the top of the key off, tape it to the column, and then the car starts with a plain key. Others buy a programmer and disable PATS entirely.
I think both are foolish. System is excellent at preventing theft.
The light flashing rapidly isn’t jibberish, it’s actually spelling out a code that’s used to identify the problem.
So, try the few things I’d mentioned, borrow a Scantool, check every wire down to rule them out, I’ll see if i can post some diagrams.
I’d suggest getting a Shop manual for your Car, the diagrams alone are priceless. A Haynes or Chiltons, local stores carry them.
Until we text again, best of luck to you!
-John

Delta1958 said:

Well, Lots of questions to review. Thanks for all the suggestions.
The car has been running fine. Don’t drive it often. It stays in my garage most of the time so not out in weather. No water issues.
The problem started when out one day and did not want to start. No noise at all just all gauges come on then nothing. No clicks or noise like dead battery. I thought it was clutch switch so depressed clutch few times and kept trying after 2-3 tries it started. No problems for several days. Then one evening when leaving a friends house same problem. Then started. Next day it would not start at all. Again suspected clutch switch. Replaced it and after two tries it started. Two days later again no start and now nothing. Will not make a sound. Charged battery and still nothing. All battery connections are clean and ground seems good. Checked relays and all good. Did find one bad relay for ac inside blower motor. It had not been working for several months so solved that issue.

Checked all fuses with test light and all seem good. Jumped the starter by bypassing at relay and starter works.

Tried doing reset with key in ignition for 15 -20 min in on position then off 5 min still nothing. Anti theft light still blinks constant fast when in on position.

Will keep checking to see if i caused a lose wire or something when replacing clutch switch.

Not sure what else to try.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Do have one question. If you have the Key on, car in neutral with your clutch pedal safety switch closed (as if the pedal was depressed), will the car actually start if you jumper the starter solenoid?
Another thought is doing a (key out) resistance test across the Clutch safety wiring with a jumper wire w/alligator clips (strip 1/8” off the wire by gently walking a razor blade around the wires, then cut a slit across the center, insulation will peel off) on them-with a DVOM to look for a partially shorted wire to the chassis.
Try running a jumper wire across the clutch pedal switch terminals, see what happens to rule out an issue with the safeties. Same thing with wires going to the Starter Relay to your starter Solenoid.
Did you pull the cover off the Smart Junction Box (SJB) to look for any moisture? Although the car is usually parked indoors, they do leak and even condensation may cause issues.
We used to get the 05’s -08’s (but issues continued to the 14’s) at the shop that had one tailight on, headlight on the opposite side, and the TSB from Ford told us to “rock” the car back & forth from the side.
If lights began randomly flashing, the SJB was wet (no seals, the “fix” was drying it out- if not salvageable, replace the components inside, then run a bead of silicone around
the SJB).
Oh, and cleaning out the Cowl so it drains, plug in the base gets obstructed, and the door seals leak. Ford remarked do everything possible to avoid replacing parts, providing our time didn’t exceed the part cost.
Can you lock, unlock your doors with the FOB when the car starts, security light flashes? It’s a repeated flash, not 2 or 3, then pause, then it resumes .?
Aftermarket aftermarket alarm installed but PATS, or even a remote starter on your FOB?
If you found anything, please pst it so we can Chase it down.
Best,
John

08GT500 said:

Hi,
Do have one question. If you have the Key on, car in neutral with your clutch pedal safety switch closed (as if the pedal was depressed), will the car actually start if you jumper the starter solenoid?
Another thought is doing a (key out) resistance test across the Clutch safety wiring with a jumper wire w/alligator clips (strip 1/8” off the wire by gently walking a razor blade around the wires, then cut a slit across the center, insulation will peel off) on them-with a DVOM to look for a partially shorted wire to the chassis.
Try running a jumper wire across the clutch pedal switch terminals, see what happens to rule out an issue with the safeties. Same thing with wires going to the Starter Relay to your starter Solenoid.
Did you pull the cover off the Smart Junction Box (SJB) to look for any moisture? Although the car is usually parked indoors, they do leak and even condensation may cause issues.
We used to get the 05’s -08’s (but issues continued to the 14’s) at the shop that had one tailight on, headlight on the opposite side, and the TSB from Ford told us to “rock” the car back & forth from the side.
If lights began randomly flashing, the SJB was wet (no seals, the “fix” was drying it out- if not salvageable, replace the components inside, then run a bead of silicone around
the SJB).
Oh, and cleaning out the Cowl so it drains, plug in the base gets obstructed, and the door seals leak. Ford remarked do everything possible to avoid replacing parts, providing our time didn’t exceed the part cost.
Can you lock, unlock your doors with the FOB when the car starts, security light flashes? It’s a repeated flash, not 2 or 3, then pause, then it resumes .?
Aftermarket aftermarket alarm installed but PATS, or even a remote starter on your FOB?
If you found anything, please pst it so we can Chase it down.
Best,
John

Click to expand...

John,

I tried your suggestion on closing the clutch safety switch and jumped the starter and engine started right up. I then swapped out a different relay and the car started. I know i had a bad blower motor relay and maybe your comment about moisture getting into the system could be the issue. I pulled both relay’s out. I went and purchased a new relay at local auto parts store. They only had one 4 pin relay. $10.00. Put it in the starter relay slot and she started right up. Time after time. Replaced the clutch switch back together and car has started each time. Is it possible i did something to damage more than one relay or is moisture getting into the SJB under hood? Or could there be some other issue causing the relay to go bad? All items in the car are original except. I know the college kid i bought this from had put in a Panasonic system replacing the original sound system. Car has 115K miles but everything else seems to be in good. Will buy two more relays one for blower motor and one spare. Any other ideas