dodge challenger

ever known anyone that owns a vette? they all say the same thing.
thats because everything on them is so expensive, you need deep pockets to maintain or modify them.

stanmckinney said:

I'm hoping the price of Shelbys, GT500s and other Mustangs will come down when the competition comes out.

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me too, but it just might have the opposite effect ...

hope not

If the competition looks good and is priced right, I think prices for special Mustangs HAVE to come down if Ford is going to sell them. I don't see how it could have the opposite effect. Competition should be good for consumers.

07BLKSTANG-GT said:

I am surprised to see so many response in such a short time for this thread. Ford got it right with the S-197 Mustang and car makers are taking notice. The Vette is a bad ass no doubt, but as a daily driver it is not practical. For the same amount of money, you could buy a lexus sport sedan with almost similar performance, but with more practicality.

Dodge got it right with the new challenger-if they stay true to form. Now if Dodge can do something about the Charger. I will probably buy the new Challenger under certain conditions. First, the price has to be right. Second, I ain't giving up my Mustang. Third, well it has to look good.

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would love to know what lexus has similar performance, lol

Keeping with the original theme of the thread and not going on about Corvettes and such I'd have to say that I can't wait for the Challenger to come out. I'm sure the V8 version will be more expensive and better performing than the Mustang GT but I still prefer the looks of the 'stang more. I'll be looking for a second car in a few years and the Challenger will definitely be on my list of possibilities. However, I'd rather have a different animal that doesn't have a V8 and RWD for the sake of difference and practicality, maybe Evo X or S4?

Here's my opinion as a UK owner of a 2005 Vortech supercharged GT with Tokico D-Specs and Roush springs - it's as good as a stock C6.

Now we've shot down the holy elephant that is the Corvette, let me just expain why. I used to own a Corvette C5 Z06. Brakes aside, it's no faster than my Mustang. My friend still has a C5 Z06 (which those of you old enough to remember is faster than a stock C6) and the two cars are pretty even in a straight line and through the twisties. This has been underlined by UK comparisons between a Roush Mustang and a C6 where the C6 was always rated behind the Mustang.
Conclusion: A well-sorted muscle car can compete with a sports car.

Forget the C6 Z06, that really is in a different league but before lauding the "Top Gear" C6, look what beat it and the C6 lap was pretty untidy to boot, the time being made up through sheer grunt:

Morgan Aero 8 GTN (BMW engine)
1.25.9
BMW Z4 M (a 3.2 litre six)
1.26.0
BMW M5 (a big weighty 4 door saloon)
1.26.2
Porsche Cayman (It's got a little engine but great handling)
1.26.2
Ferrari 575 GTC (big fat 4 seat Italian GT)
1.26.8
Chevrolet Corvette
1.26.8

But then a Vette has two seats and is as useful to me as a nun at a gang bang. I need 4 seats so a Vette is off the list (and the ugly C6 was never on it). I'd also have to contradict the running expense of a Vette. Having had a Z28 and a Z06, they don't go wrong. The LS engine is brilliant and it's a simple pushrod that a monkey could service.

Am I looking forward to the Challenger? Yes but no. It looks fabulous but even now, it's beginning to look like it's already been in production for a while due to over-exposure. Remember the good old days when a new car really was? I also think it will probably carry too much weight and even in SRT-8 form, it will just be another 300C with an interfering traction control system out to spoil the fun. It will still be an old Mercedes underneath. I'd buy it for the styling alone but would probably begin to doubt it after a while. I doubt it would be able to "hang with a Stang" (nice catchphrase, feel free to use it).

I am looking forward to the Camaro far more. It's a new design, not hampered by the old. The design is new with stolen retro cues rather than wholesale theft. It will be getting IRS and should move the game on in the same way the 2005 Stang did. With IRS, there is no reason to believe that this car will not be developed to handle to European standards just like the C6 Z06 was - they have the Nurburgring to develop it and experience with the Cadillac CTS-V. This car has potential and with an LS7 engine could be the perfect muscle car. Price will be the enemy but GM are looking to compete with the Mustang. Shame really as BMW have shown you can go upmarket as long as you deliver the goods and selling it as a 4 seater Vette instead of trying to distance it, as they have for so long, has always been a mistake. Look at what idiots are paying for GT500s and tell me there isn't a market for an LS7 Camaro. Look at the profits sheets and tell me that quality and competitive premium is just as effective as volume. What you can't do is sell dressed-up mediocrity as a premium product. Speaking of which has anyone ever thought of making these cars smaller and lighter?

That being said, when the Challenger, Camaro and S-197 Mustang II (LOL) launch, there'll be some stunning bargains amongst the current shape Mustangs which would incline me to buy a second "2005" Mustang and keep the change. Here in the UK, the Mustang is still as rare as a supercar and gets just as much attention and photo footage so maybe I'm less inclined to want something new but the Camaro is looking more promising for me. A black LS7 Camaro. Salivation City.

I stopped reading your bs after the 1st line.. The Roush lost to a stock C6 on a track, your car would not be as fast as the Roush in this case, ergo NO your car isn't as fast as a C6..

V. Barbarino said:

I stopped reading your bs after the 1st line.. The Roush lost to a stock C6 on a track, your car would not be as fast as the Roush in this case, ergo NO your car isn't as fast as a C6..

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this guy has a set on him, i tell ya. i don't know why he even has a Mustang, or if he even does for that matter. if he does, he should trade it immediately and buy a Vette that can spank all of us, even the guys who have superchargers and nitrous. this guy is in a league all his own. it does no good to argue with him and therefore i wouldn't.

this could get interesting.. Should he be or should he just :Zip2:

i don't know if i would ban him or not, but i think if he loves Corvettes so much, he should own one and stay off our boards...

in a str8 line the stang "could" win, but that's not the argument we are talking at a track.

nitrous, gimmie break, nitrous is for kids with hondas.

McQueens Dream said:

and if Ford comes out with that Ferrari looking Mustang in 2010, i will have to convert back to a Chevy, or maybe even go Mopar. and the Mustang needs some competition anyway, right now it is the only rear wheels drive car in the sports car arena minus the Corvette, and it's too expensive to me for no more car than it is...

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What ^^^he^^^ said.

From the commercials I've seen, the Stang seems to be slowing down in sales. They never use to use Stang in commercials now they have one with the "pony package" which is god awful looking. It has 3 stangs on the track racing with Mike Roe doing the narrative.

Get ready, Saleen's Shelby's Roushes etc will all drop under MSRP...

The launch of the Challenger/Camaro will be awesome. It will be like reliving the days of the Trans Am series all over again... The Big 3 with their big and heavy RWD American V8 powered muscle cars.
Just a reminder, the Stang was consistantly outpowered by the Camaro/Firebird, so I don't see Ford jumping on the HP bandwagon to compete with GM this time either. They will probably stick to their guns and build the classic American Pony car and let the name do its job as it had so well before.

V. Barbarino said:

I stopped reading your bs after the 1st line.. The Roush lost to a stock C6 on a track, your car would not be as fast as the Roush in this case, ergo NO your car isn't as fast as a C6..

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Shame you didn't read past the first line or maybe the big words just got too hard for you. I've owned a C5 Z06 and you haven't so I have a direct and immediate comparison.

As a track ace like yourself will appreciate, the Roush Mustang was slower round the Top Gear track by 1.2 seconds with it's stock 415hp but so it should be when the Vette weighs a lot less and has 400hp. Mine has suspension equal to or better than the Roush (Tokicos over Roush springs) and 462hp and since the Vette's times were made up largely by bludgeoning the straights with sheer power, you really think an extra 50hp wouldn't pull back that? Watch it again and see how untidy it gets. Then again, if you wanted a track car, you'd buy an Ariel Atom right? What most people want is a damned fine road car that does everything well.

People who think track times are the be all and end all show a degree of ignorance because it doesn't mean anything about handling and says just as much about power and outright grip. I suppose the Vette handles better than all these cars too does it?

Chevrolet Corvette 1.26.8
Aston Martin Vanquish S 1.27.1
Aston Martin DB9 1.27.1
Porsche 911 GT3 1.27.2
BMW M3 CSL 1.28.0
Roush Mustang 1.28.0
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5
Porsche 911 Carrera S 1.28.9
Mitsubishi Evo VIII 1.28.9

I'm actually a great Vette fan but you need to get a realistic perspective. I've had a C4 (which I loved) as well as the Z06 and have always had Z28s before they dropped the ball. When I sold the Z06, it wasn't to downgrade, it was to get something as fast and which handled as well if not better and was still American. So far I haven't been disappointed. So dream on because sometimes the dream's not actually nirvana when you get there (or indeed IF you get there).

The other thing is exploitability. An average driver (I appreciate you probably taught Michael Scumacher to drive so it wouldn't apply to you ) can probably get more out of a well-sorted Mustang than a C6. Proof? Well if you vaunt Top Gear's track time as a biblical fact, you have to accept their criticism of the car, you can't pick and choose the bit you like. Off set, the Stig was mightily impressed by the Roush Mustang according to people who were actually present during the filming to the point where he actually wanted one.

Try also EVO magazine's Performance Car Of the Year test 2005/6 which included the Roush Mustang and the stock C6. In the final ratings, the C6 came 12th and the Roush came 3rd because the Roush could be driven faster on twisting, wet and undulating Welsh roads (you know, real roads although I appreciate an ace like you probably laps Indianapolis in between running the Nurburgring and Laguna Seca). In a nutshell, on real roads:

Part One: The Real World

13. Mazda MX-5
12. Chevrolet Corvette - "...it tied itself in knots as soon as the road turned nadgety. It feels like a live axle at the rear, like the engine's far too much for the chassis. And it always feels huge, which is weird, because it's not."
11. Volkswagen Golf R32
9. Subaru Impreza WRX
9. BMW 130i M Sport
8. Renault Megane 225
7. Caterham CSR
6. Subaru Forester STi
5. Lotus Exige 240R - "Even if you could stretch to 44k GBP, it's unlikely the Lotus would be your first car, it's just too single-minded, so it starts to look like a rich man's plaything. Happily for Lotus there are enough rich men around..."
3. Nissan 350Z GT4 - "...the crucial difference between the Nissan and cars like the Mustang and Corvette is that the Z's rear suspension deals with all the bumps. There's a bit less feedback, but it only takes a couple of corners to realise that the back end's sorted, that it's with you, and that you can really start to exploit it."
3. Roush Ford Mustang - "If you want the full American experience, right down to the Nascar roar,...the Mustang gives you that. It is flawed, it is a bit lairy. It's an analogue car, not overly sophisticated, but it's actually pretty well sorted."
2. BMW M3 CS - "It's mostly down to the steering feel - but the whole car feels like they've taken the best bits from the CSL and just polished them a bit more. And you haven't got any of the horrible compromises of the CSL like the harshness and the fixed-back seats."
1. Renault Clio Trophy

If you've read this far, your opinion isn't as blinkered as it first seemed and you are able to embrace facts as well as blind prejudice. Saying something loudly doesn't make it true. Prestige badges and GM marketing will never compensate for reality. The C6 Z06 is a fantastic car, leagues ahead of a GT500 but the C6 is just a competitor. Maybe with the C7 you'll be right - let's hope so.

If you don't understand any words, ask your mum to help you.

like i said, i wouldn't argue with V. Barberino, he knows everything there is know about cars, so why bother. he should be driving a Vette...

The Challenger looks awesome and I would drive one anyday.

I love my mustang but my Vette was a MUCH better car! Bought it the next model year(was 2000 Hardtop purchased in '01) for $35k with 5k miles. I sold the car with 25k miles to buy a different vehicle and regretted it since. ZERO problems, only things I had to purchase for the car were the upgrades I bought. So the comments bout having to throw money at the Vette are crap. Unlike my Mustang which came with problems like the fuel pump and suspension clunk that eludes many people. Since the Vette is a penis car I bet those guys that drive Geo Metros must be hung like horses.

Not all people that own Vettes are necessarily people a Mustang owner would associate with. It's not like I switched friends or didn't hang out with my stang buddies when I got a Vette. I agree some Vette owners may be stuck-up but not all. Thats like some Vette owners saying Mustang's are cheap POS's. Negative comments from people about Vettes generally stem from the people that aren't able to get one for one reason or another. There are people that simply don't like them but that doesn't make them crap.

McQueens Dream said:

i personally can't wait to look into one myself. it and the new Camaro. i know, this is a Ford site, but come on, who can't resist a retro Camaro and Challenger with over 400hp? i was born a Chevy man, but converted, and if Ford comes out with that Ferrari looking Mustang in 2010, i will have to convert back to a Chevy, or maybe even go Mopar. and the Mustang needs some competition anyway, right now it is the only rear wheels drive car in the sports car arena minus the Corvette, and it's too expensive to me for no more car than it is...

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I couldn't agree more, except for the convert to mopar (i can't believe i just typed that word), maybe chevy. Anyways, i think ford has the most to loose in this deal. Simply because they were the first to redo retro right, i hope they aren't also the first to redo retro wrong. Thats why i bought my '07, because I'm afraid the F#$% it up. The Giugiaro Concept is nice, but the nose is getting plenty round for my likes. Then the big questions will be coming do i trade up for a new model Giugiao stang, or by an old gt500 left over on the lots. Oh my friends terrible rough decisions ahead.

mahoogan said:

The Challenger looks awesome and I would drive one anyday.

I love my mustang but my Vette was a MUCH better car! Bought it the next model year(was 2000 Hardtop purchased in '01) for $35k with 5k miles. I sold the car with 25k miles to buy a different vehicle and regretted it since. ZERO problems, only things I had to purchase for the car were the upgrades I bought. So the comments bout having to throw money at the Vette are crap. Unlike my Mustang which came with problems like the fuel pump and suspension clunk that eludes many people. Since the Vette is a penis car I bet those guys that drive Geo Metros must be hung like horses.

Not all people that own Vettes are necessarily people a Mustang owner would associate with. It's not like I switched friends or didn't hang out with my stang buddies when I got a Vette. I agree some Vette owners may be stuck-up but not all. Thats like some Vette owners saying Mustang's are cheap POS's. Negative comments from people about Vettes generally stem from the people that aren't able to get one for one reason or another. There are people that simply don't like them but that doesn't make them crap.

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That's great that you didn't have a problem. I'm sure there's Ferrari owners out there that haven't either. But the majority of Vette owners have. I'm not saying every Vette owner is a douchebag, but the majority of them are. And those aren't the people I'd like to hang out with. BTW, look at my signature. If I wanted a Vette, don't you think I could get a Vette?