FAILED EMISSIONS! Have a few questions...

[vristang]

No they dont hook up anything to your tailpipe. They just smell the air from the exhaust to see if it will pass. COME ON!!!! You cant even cheat the test by using another car for the exhaust to pass.
You need to read the web site again. Those are the things ADDED to the original inspection. You just dont listen. I think I know alot more than you. I live here. You dont. Ask anybody thats from NY.

Wow.
I am asking someone from NY.
Since you know alot more than me what are the grams per mile measurements for the testing. I am not doubting that you have passed the NY emissions test. I am curious however how the NY standards compare to CA. The most recent book I have lists projected changes for 1993-1996 vehicles to be
.25 NMHC
3.4 CO
.4-.07 NOx
Does anyone know if these numbers are correct today?
Does anyone know the numbers for NY? Are they different?

 

[mpswirl]

Well guys i lived in NY for 24yrs and i was a NYS inspector and i dont care what anybody says your car WILL fail the inspection without cats and i was an inspector from 1990-1997. As far as the original post i agree with most change the timing back and get those cats working with the air pump. HC are simply unburned fuel. Nox is high combustion temps (egr) and cos are partially burned fuel. Iam currently a Arizona emission inspector and we have strict emissions here. Even if your car isnt runnung the best the cats will mask a lot of the problems.

 

[tomabram]

Wow.
I am asking someone from NY.
Since you know alot more than me what are the grams per mile measurements for the testing. I am not doubting that you have passed the NY emissions test. I am curious however how the NY standards compare to CA. The most recent book I have lists projected changes for 1993-1996 vehicles to be
.25 NMHC
3.4 CO
.4-.07 NOx
Does anyone know if these numbers are correct today?
Does anyone know the numbers for NY? Are they different?

Why would you care about CA? Your sig says you are in Seattle. What does WA have to do with CA?
And like I said before, I will post the numbers on Mon or Tues next week.

 

[vristang]

Why would you care about CA? Your sig says you are in Seattle. What does WA have to do with CA?
And like I said before, I will post the numbers on Mon or Tues next week.

I only care about CA because the rest of the world follows their standards. If you care about emissions policies, you have to care about CA. I was not trying to push you to post numbers before you tested, I was just hoping someone else might know, or know where to find the answers.
The entire point of this site is to exchange ideas and knowledge. I'm just trying to better understand emissions testing procedures and standards.
It seems to me that alot of people complain about how strict emissions testing is, but have no idea what the standards are.

 

[tomabram]

I only care about CA because the rest of the world follows their standards. If you care about emissions policies, you have to care about CA. I was not trying to push you to post numbers before you tested, I was just hoping someone else might know, or know where to find the answers.
The entire point of this site is to exchange ideas and knowledge. I'm just trying to better understand emissions testing procedures and standards.
It seems to me that alot of people complain about how strict emissions testing is, but have no idea what the standards are.

Who says the rest of the world follows CA standards? Where the heck did you read that garbage from, or did you just make it up? Your talking out of your azz now. You are just making false statements and have no clue what you are talking about. And really who cares what the standards are in any state. You car will either pass or fail.
Unless your car runs like a total piece of c**p it will pass without the cats. My car was running great and the cats didnt do much at all in changing the emmision numbers.

 

[vristang]

Who says the rest of the world follows CA standards? Where the heck did you read that garbage from, or did you just make it up? Your talking out of your azz now. You are just making false statements and have no clue what you are talking about. And really who cares what the standards are in any state. You car will either pass or fail.
Unless your car runs like a total piece of c**p it will pass without the cats. My car was running great and the cats didnt do much at all in changing the emmision numbers.

You certainly are argumentative.
Maybe I did not express my self clearly. When CA creates new legislation the rest of the country takes note. CA has always been a leader in passing clean air acts and emissions testing procedures/requirements. The following is from Cleaner Cars: The History and Technology of Emissions Control Since the 1960s by J. Robert Mondt Published by SAE (pg 227-29). By the way I am a member of SAE and have a 4yr degree in Automotive Design. I do have a little knowledge, and some experience to boot.
1961- PCV California
1963- PCV the rest of the USA

1968- 7-mode driving test cycle emission test established by CARB
1972- Original Federal Test Porcedure

1966- First year for emission controls in CA
1968- Frist year for emissions controls in the rest of the USA
I see a pattern?

I care what the emissions standards are in various states so that I can gain an understanding of how certain combinations affect emissions output. For example, I have never heard of a CA car passing emissions without the use of Cats. So, how does the NY emissions test differ from CA such that NY will pass vehicles without cats? What are the differing demands being made by these two states?

I would argue that an engine that is running very well can still fail an emissions test. Reducing unburned HC and CO is easy to do. Changing the NOX output however is more difficult. For example, a high compression engine will produce higher levels of NOx due to the greater thermal efficiency. If high enough the car will fail (arguably even with the use of EGR), even though it runs very well.

I don't mind hearing that I am wrong, in fact I enjoy it because it usually means my undestanding of a subject is about to improve. However, if you are going to tell me I am wrong, please explain. I choose to participate in this site to learn from others and to help others learn from my knowledge and experiences. If you have facts to share please do so. Just saying that I am "talking out my !@#" accomplishes nothing.

I apologize to the original poster for the change in direction. Have you retested, or when do you expect to? Please let us know how things work out for you. I am very interested.

 

[tomabram]

First off what does NY have to do with CA? Do you really think we care what is passed there? Dont think so. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

ANd you said emission controls? If you mean they started testing for emissions first then this proves you wrong again. If they started this back in the sixties and the rest of the USA follows then why does most states still have safety check only (no emissions)? Its been almost 40 years so it dosent look like anyone is following CA. All you did was state an oponion, not a fact. NY didnt start emission testing unitl after 1981. So saying we followed right after CA is a lie. Cars were NOT equipped with any kind of emissions until the mid 70's, which was because of the gas shortgage. So I dont see any pattern and the bull you stated is simply not true.
And just because you havent seen any car pass without cats means ZERO!!!!
It dosent mean its not true. A good running car WILL pass with flying colors without the cats. I had several cars without them and I have NEVER failed, or come close to failing. So dont say it cant be done, when in fact it has. For you info, cats do more in restricting airflow than they do in reducing emissions.
What do you mean "did I retest"? A retest is when you fail and have to take the test again. Like I said, I never failed. My car will be tested on Mon. so I can scan the inspection receipt and post it so you can see the results.
But I dont see how me posting the results would matter. You will probably claim the car has cats and start more BS. But I will post it anyway. I can also take a pic of the exhaust to prove there is no cats on the car. I got the car from my Dad who had put a full exhaust on and deleted the cats.
So its true, very true.
I dont know where you got your info from but its probably the same place that said NY dosent test for emissions.
Believe it.

 

[seijirou]

First off what does NY have to do with CA? Do you really think we care what is passed there? Dont think so. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

ANd you said emission controls? If you mean they started testing for emissions first then this proves you wrong again. If they started this back in the sixties and the rest of the USA follows then why does most states still have safety check only (no emissions)? Its been almost 40 years so it dosent look like anyone is following CA. All you did was state an oponion, not a fact. NY didnt start emission testing unitl after 1981. So saying we followed right after CA is a lie. Cars were NOT equipped with any kind of emissions until the mid 70's, which was because of the gas shortgage. So I dont see any pattern and the bull you stated is simply not true.
And just because you havent seen any car pass without cats means ZERO!!!!
It dosent mean its not true. A good running car WILL pass with flying colors without the cats. I had several cars without them and I have NEVER failed, or come close to failing. So dont say it cant be done, when in fact it has. For you info, cats do more in restricting airflow than they do in reducing emissions.
What do you mean "did I retest"? A retest is when you fail and have to take the test again. Like I said, I never failed. My car will be tested on Mon. so I can scan the inspection receipt and post it so you can see the results.
But I dont see how me posting the results would matter. You will probably claim the car has cats and start more BS. But I will post it anyway. I can also take a pic of the exhaust to prove there is no cats on the car. I got the car from my Dad who had put a full exhaust on and deleted the cats.
So its true, very true.
I dont know where you got your info from but its probably the same place that said NY dosent test for emissions.
Believe it.

Do you even read Vristang's posts before you respond or do you just skim them? I hope you're not actually reading them, because you're certainly not comprehending them. He never said a car wouldn't pass without cats, so really, why are you even arguing this. Untill recently, all cats were 2-way cats, they reduced HC and CO. As our friend Vristang posted earlier, reducing these two outputs is easy to do. Comprehension tells us, that means no, you don't need cats. However he further goes on to talk about NOX, something that cats havn't cleaned up untill recently. Our Mustangs control NOX by the EGR system, not by the cats.
Furthermore, he's not talking to you when he asks if a retest was done Narcissus. He's talking to the original poster, and this was even in big bold letters. The original poster being 1990LXDroptop.
Emissions has nothing to do with the "gas shortage". I don't know where you got that idea. Stuffing a plug in the exhaust pipe and reducing power output, making everybody drive around with their foot deeper in the throttle isn't how you go about conserving fuel. If you don't believe me, go look at the fuel economy of a new car, and notice that there are actually two different ratings. One is standard, and the other is "California equipped" and is lower. California is, and remains, to those who actually bother with emissions testing, the pioneer of emissions controls.

 

[tomabram]

Do you even read Vristang's posts before you respond or do you just skim them? I hope you're not actually reading them, because you're certainly not comprehending them. He never said a car wouldn't pass without cats, so really, why are you even arguing this. Untill recently, all cats were 2-way cats, they reduced HC and CO. As our friend Vristang posted earlier, reducing these two outputs is easy to do. Comprehension tells us, that means no, you don't need cats. However he further goes on to talk about NOX, something that cats havn't cleaned up untill recently. Our Mustangs control NOX by the EGR system, not by the cats.
Furthermore, he's not talking to you when he asks if a retest was done Narcissus. He's talking to the original poster, and this was even in big bold letters. The original poster being 1990LXDroptop.
Emissions has nothing to do with the "gas shortage". I don't know where you got that idea. Stuffing a plug in the exhaust pipe and reducing power output, making everybody drive around with their foot deeper in the throttle isn't how you go about conserving fuel. If you don't believe me, go look at the fuel economy of a new car, and notice that there are actually two different ratings. One is standard, and the other is "California equipped" and is lower. California is, and remains, to those who actually bother with emissions testing, the pioneer of emissions controls.

Ummmm....yes he did say he never heard of a car passing without cats. And I guess he didnt say that NY had no emission testing either, right? Read the post. ANd if you know anything about cars the emissions were introduced during the gas crunch. And I wasent only talking about cats during this time. The entire emission system was added during this time. And yes lowering compression and adding emissions reduced power output to save on fuel. Why did you think cars during the mid seventies had no power? I guess the manufacturers wanted cars with much less power to push away customers. (yeah right)
Less power means less fuel burned. You should do some research before you come back with stupid comments.
Bottom line, cats dont do as much as you think.

 

[vristang]

First off what does NY have to do with CA? Do you really think we care what is passed there? Dont think so. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

ANd you said emission controls? If you mean they started testing for emissions first then this proves you wrong again. If they started this back in the sixties and the rest of the USA follows then why does most states still have safety check only (no emissions)? Its been almost 40 years so it dosent look like anyone is following CA. All you did was state an oponion, not a fact. NY didnt start emission testing unitl after 1981. So saying we followed right after CA is a lie. Cars were NOT equipped with any kind of emissions until the mid 70's, which was because of the gas shortgage. So I dont see any pattern and the bull you stated is simply not true.
And just because you havent seen any car pass without cats means ZERO!!!!
It dosent mean its not true. A good running car WILL pass with flying colors without the cats. I had several cars without them and I have NEVER failed, or come close to failing. So dont say it cant be done, when in fact it has. For you info, cats do more in restricting airflow than they do in reducing emissions.
What do you mean "did I retest"? A retest is when you fail and have to take the test again. Like I said, I never failed. My car will be tested on Mon. so I can scan the inspection receipt and post it so you can see the results.
But I dont see how me posting the results would matter. You will probably claim the car has cats and start more BS. But I will post it anyway. I can also take a pic of the exhaust to prove there is no cats on the car. I got the car from my Dad who had put a full exhaust on and deleted the cats.
So its true, very true.
I dont know where you got your info from but its probably the same place that said NY dosent test for emissions.
Believe it.

The Retest question was not intended for you.
I have told you where I got my information, TEXT PUBLISHED BY SAE.
I never said that you should care about CA testing, only said that I do.
You have some terminology mixed up. Emissions controls are different from emissions testing. A PCV is an emission control device. PCV is required when the car leaves the factory, due to FEDERAL regulations.
By all means tell me who started emissions testing first? Again, I am here to learn.
I will be the first to admit that just because I have not seen it, does not mean it is not true. I will say it again, I DO NOT DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE PASSED NY EMISSIONS TESTS WITHOUT THE USE OF CATS. I am curious however how the CA standards compare to NY.
Cats do restrict airflow, I will not argue that! However, while the first cats were very resrtictive, technology has greatly improved. Todays cars will not have the same percentage of performance increase that our older fox bodies experienced by removing the cats.
No need for pics, I do believe that you don't have cats. I don't have cats either (but it is on the list of things to do).
I would like to see however what performance mods you have made to your car. Are you still running all the other emissions stuff? PCV, EGR, fuel evaporator canister, etc. What year is your car? Is the motor orignal? How many miles? Are you running the stock cam, heads, intake? Please list anything that could possibly affect the outcome of the emissions test.

To finish I have cited all of my sources. Even when I was wrong about the visual inspections in NY. Citing that info to you allowed you to go back and see what I had misunderstood. You have yet to do so. Can you please help me out, by letting me know where you are getting your info? If I am mistaken I would like the opportunity to learn the error of my ways.

 

[tomabram]

Sorry I misunderstood the question was not for me. My car only has exhaust work done, headers back. No other changes were made except for the air cleaner box removed. Its an 88 GT with 43K on it. Another car I had a few years ago also had no cats. It had heads, cam, intake, headers, supercharger, and a few other things and that also passed very very easily. None of the numbers even came close to the limit. The numbers were less than half than the limit was. I was suprised when it passed because it was the first time I had a test with no cats. But it just shows if a car is running good it will still pass without the cats. No worries. If the car has mods done (heads, intake, cam, headers) it will pass even easier.
And I know CA is alittle more strict than other states because the air quality is terrible there. But if you find out the testing limits I will compare them to my test results.

 

[davs5.0]

I think he may have been refering to NOT passing w/o cats due to some states having a visual check. Up here in Canada, they do a visual check to see that they are there. Most of us have to have a "friendly" set of eyes verify that they are installed. Once that is done, we do pass without them all the time.

 

[HardmanGT]

Well, since we are on the subject of California standards, it should be noted that Massachusetts adopts CA emission standards. So as far as New Yorkers not caring about what happens in CA, just give it time. You too will have CA emission standards at some point as well. You guys just seem to adopt them later than some other states.

New York has only recently adopted the VOC standards that rule the auto body world. The use of more clean products and equipment is now the law.

 

[tomabram]

I think he may have been refering to NOT passing w/o cats due to some states having a visual check. Up here in Canada, they do a visual check to see that they are there. Most of us have to have a "friendly" set of eyes verify that they are installed. Once that is done, we do pass without them all the time.

No we also have the visual check as well. But if you know the guy they dont dont care.

 

[1990LXDropTop]

Well I set my timing to 8* initial, lowered the fuel pressure, ran the fuel additive, and hooked my smog back up... AND I PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS!!! This made my week! I'm so relieved. The guy there said it was the "cleanest" mustang both emissions and looks wise he has ever tested. He said he tested a stock 5.0 stang yesterday, which passed, but not with "flying colors." Now I can put my o/r h-pipe back on drive for another year until it is that time again. Except next year I don't need emissions

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[vristang]

Well I set my timing to 8* initial, lowered the fuel pressure, ran the fuel additive, and hooked my smog back up... AND I PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS!!! This made my week! I'm so relieved. The guy there said it was the "cleanest" mustang both emissions and looks wise he has ever tested. He said he tested a stock 5.0 stang yesterday, which passed, but not with "flying colors." Now I can put my o/r h-pipe back on drive for another year until it is that time again. Except next year I don't need emissions

Thanks for all the help guys!

Congrats!
I am curious, what were your numbers?

 

[1990LXDropTop]

Congrats!
I am curious, what were your numbers?

HC grams per mile: 1.17 (Limit 2.00)
CO grams per mile: 2.28 (Limit 30.00)
NOx grams per mile: 0.62 (Limited 3.00)

Passed with flying colors

 

[vristang]

HC grams per mile: 1.17 (Limit 2.00)
CO grams per mile: 2.28 (Limit 30.00)
NOx grams per mile: 0.62 (Limited 3.00)

Passed with flying colors

Thanks for coming back with that info.

 

[Raginstang]

come on dude, I don't mean to ruin your parade but use some common sense! if your trying to get your car smogged, you need ALL of the emissions equipment working and ON the car. you are answering you questions with the smog pump, which is a big factor in the smog system, put the pump back on, re check that everything is working and then reinspect, but not until everything is on the car, or your wasting your money, I mean you wouldn't go to war without a gun would you? don't go to smog without all the equipment. good luck. oh and by the way, I don't know where you live, but here in california, if they saw that you didn't have a smog pump you would fail immediatley

 

[1990LXDropTop]

come on dude, I don't mean to ruin your parade but use some common sense! if your trying to get your car smogged, you need ALL of the emissions equipment working and ON the car. you are answering you questions with the smog pump, which is a big factor in the smog system, put the pump back on, re check that everything is working and then reinspect, but not until everything is on the car, or your wasting your money, I mean you wouldn't go to war without a gun would you? don't go to smog without all the equipment. good luck. oh and by the way, I don't know where you live, but here in california, if they saw that you didn't have a smog pump you would fail immediatley

Ummm, do you know how to read? If so, then do yourself a favor and read some of the previous posts before commenting. Good day.