Handling....what's handling??

To the OP...

With that budget you're very limited...

Handling will improve with almost any suspension mod on our mustangs.
I'm sure you felt improvement with just the springs?

Just do your research and pick quality parts.

Oh yea...

Be prepared for a rough ride when upgrading your suspension.

If you think your car shakes and rattles now... Wait until you really start getting into more serious suspension upgrades

bigkeeko said:

I didn`t quote the rest of the $hite you spewed out as I`m not only one but 3 levels above what you `think` you are.

I drive for a living. I have every license there is. Trucks , buses, plant the lot. I`ve competed in rally competitively as both navigator and driver and have spent a fortune over the years on 4wd and RWD cars just to have the privilege to enter. When was the last time you went ditch hooking or used a hydraulic handbrake?

Recently I`ve had an Accord Type R and a Civic Type R and a Mitusbishi Galant VR4. SN95s don`t handle anything like these , Mitsubishi Evos, Subarus or the likes and to say otherwise makes you look silly. A stock Ford Focus from 1999 has an excellent chassis and FAR superior to whats on an SN95. Where I live (clue), handling actually counts with our narrow winding undulating roads with awkward cambers and hairpin bends. I don`t need some jumped up bum on a forum telling me otherwise.

Your idea of what handles and mine are two totally different things.

I won`t get involved in some nonsense argument with someone on the internet who has had a `modded civic` or is ignorant or clearly misinformed. I can drive the car. What I`m saying is I can drive other cars faster.

I love my Mustang for what it is but great handling car it isnt.

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I'm sorry if my post rubbed you the wrong way. But reality conflicts with your worldview.

Where I live (clue) roads are covered in ice and snow four months out of the year. We don't just get flurries and the occasional icy rain. What you think of as "bad weather" or "bad roads" is what we deal with on the way to work every day. Get over yourself.

You owned a few front wheel drive vehicles and make some sort of claim of being able to "drive" while you modded your Mustang for straight line driving. It just tells me you don't know how to drive a powerful RWD vehicle. If you could, you'd recognize the platform you own and realize it is unmatched for the money for what it can deliver to to someone who can understand how to drive it.

AWD will generally be faster over the same course as a similarly power and weight RWD car. That's physics. Claiming that makes a Mustang handle poorly just

makes you look silly.

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I grew up driving RWD V8 sedans, unlike you. I know how to drive vehicles you have spent very little time in. I grew up driving these vehicles on gravel, snow, and ice. Hence my perspective.

I modded my Civic for handling because it was atrocious from the factory despite all I heard from your type of bigot. I spent thousands on that POS and eventually traded it for a 99 Mustang GT because the Mustang was 100 times the car the Civic was in every category. The same cloverleaf (you don't have those, sorry) the Civic would manage to reach ~65 mph tops after all my efforts in braces, swaybars, tires, whatever. I was able to hit 70+ mph on the same cloverleaf easily with my Mustang. End of conversation.

A New Edge Mustang is the product of 30+ years of concentrated effort to make a 2+2 V8 sports car. Not a drag racer, but a sports car. You bought a car you have no experience driving, know nothing about weight transfer and specifically how to drive an actually powerful RWD car, and immediately deem it incapable. That's the difference between you and me.

You decided your car was over your head when it came to driving around corners and decided to mod it for straight line driving. Your perfectly valid choice, as the car is relatively light, has a V8, and is RWD, making it suited to drag racing. But had you experience driving something other than FWD cars, you would recognize the car for what it is - a very capable machine that because it is powerful and RWD, demands a greater attention to the finer points of throttle application and weight transfer.

But that would require you to recognize that you need to brake to transfer the weight onto the front wheels prior to turn-in, and apply the throttle with discretion, unlike your FWD wonders that at worst understeer when you give them too much throttle, and backing off slightly lets them bite and continue the turn. A RWD V8 car requires you to learn how much gas you can apply without losing traction and how to maintain your trajectory while the rear end steps out. How to integrate steering input, throttle input, braking input, and clutch and shifting while driving the car hard. And how to listen to your senses while driving. It's a much more complex coordination of skills than FWD or AWD demands. But the result is a faster lap time than the FWD car could ever deliver and a whole lot easier on the tires than an AWD car.

AWD is cool and I'm a big fan, but it is a different beast and I find it less rewarding. Perhaps because I grew up driving gravel roads with 4x4's and know how easy it is to carry corner speed when the power is split between four wheels instead of two and how nice it is to be able to tap the brakes when you start to push and then power the front back around in front and come out of the curve on the rugs while feeling the front wheels through the steering wheel pulling you around. But that's just me. I'm guessing that's also why you like it.

I'm not knocking people who use their Mustang for drag racing. Racing is racing. But someone who thinks the car was designed for straight line is ignorant. Thats a fact. Since day one, the car was intended to be an affordable 2+2 sports car, not a muscle car straightline beast. Just like a Corvette, it is really good at the straight line stuff, but just like a Corvette, was really intended for drivers who have broader horizons. A Corvette is on another level, but we can't all afford a Corvette. Hence the popularity of the Mustang on track days.

Way back in the early days of the model Lee Iacocca asked Carroll Shelby how to make the Mustang a handling car capable of winning its class in SCCA because that's what he envisioned for the car. Over the years it has generally been Ford's track car entry in racing. Ford campaigns Focuses in drag racing as much as Mustangs, and Mustangs in paved course racing and far-from-factory AWD Focuses in rally. Maybe I'm an idiot, but if the Focus was such a superior machine, why isn't Ford campaigning a Focus in AMLS? Maybe you should shoot them an email informing them that the factory Focus is a far better road course car than the Mustang?

Anyone who would wax poetic on the virtues of a FWD platform while denigrating a Mustang GT for handling is clearly either ignorant or a hamfisted driver. A RWD V8 car demands finesse, not the hamfisted inputs of an AWD car. It's OK to have a preference, but just plain ignorant to decide your preference is somehow superior in ability just because you lack finesse.

FWIW, racing is a great way to spend money. Spending money is hardly bonafides for driving ability. Nobody drafts drivers from rush hour or college parking lots. If you want to race competitively you have to bring a checkbook. If you want to brag about your checkbook, brag about your checkbook without pretending the size of your checkbook makes you a better driver. I drive my car every day, rain or shine, snow or sleet. You drive yours in a straight line because you cannot control it in a corner. Don't blame that on the car.

And I have a drivers license. I suppose that makes me a better driver than someone who doesn't, but since I do, I know for a fact that your internet claims of having drivers licenses for every vehicle under the sun is so much talk. So what? CDL licenses in the States are dime a dozen. So are trucks in the ditch. Get back to me when you can handle a powerful RWD V8 sports car on a road with corners, much less ice and snow.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to everyone agreeing with you. That doesn't make your opinion invalid. It just makes it a data point. And the data points to your opinion as coming from someone with limited experience with powerful RWD V8 cars.

But I'd buy you a beer if we ever meet. It's not hate, just give your Mustang a chance by looking at it as a back road machine that you need to learn and master, not something to dismiss because you are unfamiliar with how it behaves.

40oz said:

It just tells me you don't know how to drive a powerful RWD vehicle.

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I got as far as there and decided you`re really just winding me up and surely can`t be serious. Your `no experience of RWD cars ` comments are a bad assumption of my post as I happened to mention a couple of FWD cars that actually DO go round corners.

Listen mate. Like you I was brought up with RWD. I really want to give you the `benefit of the doubt` because, really I have nothing to prove and you clearly are looking for some long drawn out internet `college debate`. Time to get my experience stick out. What I write comes from me. Not guff copied and pasted from other sites to make me look like a know all referencing dung about shelby and the like. The S197 GT500 doesn`t exactly handle great either by the way and thats a hell of a lot better than an SN95.

My personal take on the SN95 handling thing is this.

Far too much nosedive on braking and far too bouncy and wallowy on the stock set up. (the one YOU said was good).
The cars are easy to drive in a straight line (american style) or round corners in a mildly enthusiastic manner but when pushed hard, the cars chassis has its limits.
The stock suspension is so mushy and soft it makes exploring the cars limits difficult. I haven`t modded it for drag. We don`t drag here. I haven`t really modded it. Just made it look a bit better.
Yes...I think suspension could be firmer and even after lowering and adding wider wheels and tyres the car still feels heavy and hard to chuck around without getting out of shapes. The correct thing to do here is a FULL suspension set up. Bilsteins for example. On the stock car the arse end lets go on anything uneven at speed especially over bumps on corners. A Bit skittish to say the least.
This of course can be fun as we all like a bit of oversteer and opposite lock but the back end just isnt tight and planted and while you`re looking great catching your slide and looking out of your drivers window,
`Mr 123hp Subaru` covers the road totally fuss free in a less spectacular manner while still managing 3 figure speeds.
Hence my 1.8 Focus or 2.0 Civic Sport statement.

If you don`t understand what I`ve just written or disagree please don`t go any further with this bit as you`re deluded.

Bottom line is you need to stiffen the shell (the one you said was stiff).
If you jack the rear and the front stays on the deck the chassis is actually twisting due to it being floppy, weak and if the truth be told , old technology. 30 years of concentrated effort? For f**k sake man you`re coming across like a misty eyed flag waver. Its awful. The chassis is woeful man. 30 years of what?
This obviously means less control. Thats why guys look at subframe connectors , strut braces and tubular upper and lower control arms with poly bushings, panhard rods that kinda thing. I`m choosing NOT to throw good money at it. My choice. I`ll just accept what it is.

If the engine and drivetrain uses it's energy twisting the shell instead of putting the power to the road, it's being wasted.
Surely you can understand this?


I`m not slaughtering my or anyone elses Mustang. I love them becuase theyre quirky and different and fun here. My GT makes me smile but its not an out and out drivers car. Your average modern BMW diesel would leave it behind in real world driving.
I`ve had 2 Sierra Cosworths that would eat my Mustang alive on the twisties. They were 80s (powerful RWD ) Fords with similar output.

Says it all really.

^ Hi I'm the internet, have we met?

40oz said:

I know for a fact that your internet claims of having drivers licenses for every vehicle under the sun is so much talk.

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Have some of that

I guarantee you my experience at Sebring of all places I can outdrive any FWD car that can offer out there with my puny little RWD 380hp Mustang. If one person doesn't like you man. Don't worry about it, it is just the interwebz....

It don't matter my e-shlong is longer than yours!

joshjwc9 said:

I guarantee you my experience at Sebring of all places I can outdrive any FWD car that can offer out there with my puny little RWD 380hp Mustang. If one person doesn't like you man. Don't worry about it, it is just the interwebz....

It don't matter my e-shlong is longer than yours!

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hey, FWD isnt my thing either. They can only handle so much power before it becomes a bit pointless. Torque steer is garbage. I didnt say they were the `way ahead`. The point in question was poor chassis technology.

Keep your hair on cowboy we`re on the same side here I drive a Mustang because I like it.

N8Dogg98 said:

^ Hi I'm the internet, have we met?

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LOL

My bad, seriously.

Yet another thread hijacked!

To the OP get yourself some bilstien HD's and some CC plates with the alignment specs MM recommends and you will be set. Or you can get the starter box I linked. take it to a quality alignment shop. Not les schwab or americas tire. In fact for about $100 you can do it yourself like I did.

There your set no more arguing over who's E-Penis is bigger!

bigkeeko said:

Have some of that

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Man, you struck a nerve and it's not your fault. But seriously, my point about your licenses was that they don't say squat about your ability to control a powerful RWD sports car. Why pretend a CDL means you are another Senna behind the wheel when by your own admission you prefer AWD and FWD? There's nothing wrong with preference, there is something wrong with pretending preference equals objective judgement.

I know for a fact you lack the same experience I have behind the wheel of a powerful RWD sedan because they don't sell the kinds of cars I grew up driving in your country. And you have never seen the weather we deal with as routine in my locale. I'm not saying this to denigrate you, I'm saying this to highlight why we disagree.

If you want to call the 99+ Mustang chassis "flexible," what word to do we use to describe Honda chassis? "Floppy noodle"? "Silly putty"? "Jello"?

FWD stands for "fail wheel drive." It works for people with limited driving skills and reduces costs related to drivetrains. Have you ever driven a Daytona Turbo? The car every drving magazine in the early 90's called "The best handling FWD car in the world"? I thought not. If you had, you'd realize the FWD cars you revere for their handling are floppy approximations of performance.

In 1999, when the New Edge Mustang debuted, Sport Compact Car ran a match-up between it and the 1999 Acura Integra Type R, and the Mustang won by well over a second on a very short low speed track. SCC changed the track to favor the ITR and managed to find a configuration of Streets of Willow that let it win by a tenth. They had the balls to acknowledge that the Mustang was the more capable track and drivers car, faster in every situation but their loyalties still lay with the FWD Acura. That's integrity, IMHO, willing to admit that they still preferred the ITR even though it lost a match they really expected it to win. And presenting the data showing that loss despite their own prejudices.

You are not being half so generous. You ignore any data that might disagree with your own preference and refuse to acknowledge that a Mustang demands a different skillset than a FWD or AWD platform without recognizing that different skillsets are not inherently inferior.

In the pantheon of performance, FWD is dead last. AWD beats RWD up to a certain power level, then RWD really begins to shine. Witness the Z06 and ZR1 and Viper trumping the GTR on tracks like Nurburgring. AWD is great, FWD just plain bites. All can be fun, but just because you are comfortable with how an Accord Type R drives doesn't make it faster or better handling than a stock Mustang GT. And nobody in this country cares about an Accord Type R because they don't sell it here and never have. Because nobody here would pay that much of a premium for such a car when we have cars like the Mustang GT that perform better for less money and are more satisfying to drive and and more comfortable for long drives. An ITR has all sound deadening materials removed, is pretty hardcore as cars go, and is still slower around any given course than a 7 year old dime-a-dozen Mustang GT with power seats and a better stereo.

In the US we have access to cars that perform far better than whatever FWD rockets you have access to. I would love to be able to drive some of the cars you can sample, but there is a reason I own the car I do, and it isn't from ignorance. As much as you might say I am ignorant I can say the same about you.

I want a TVR, but that will never happen. IMHO they make my ideal machine. I could give two ****s about the opinion of some punter who thinks his Accord is the tits machine.

Preference is fine. Just don't confuse preference with objectivity.

Quite the thread. lol

40oz said:

I`m splitting hairs and talking out of my hole

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You`re right son, and not the one with teeth in it.

That`ll do. Finished for me.

LarsD said:

Quite the thread. lol

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Cliffs notes?

things really escalated quickly

^ Yeah, I stabbed a man in the heart...

With a trident?

I knew there was a reason why the typical "What Suspension?" thread had 40 posts and 500 views....