Hard Starting: Looking for possile leads...

todderasesaredd · Oct 2, 2007

Hey everybody.

I've got a '66 coupe that just doesn't want to start and it's driving me crazy. I think I have considered most of the obvious things, so I'm looking for a little help from anyone out there with an answer to any of my questions. Here's the scoop:

Car basics:

* 1966 coupe,
* rebuilt 302 (or so previous owner says and I have not yet verified. The intake manifold code says 298, but I digress)
* Carter Performance Series (9000) carburetor

The details right now:

* 80 degrees. Southern California. 6:00 pm.

* Engine cranks, but will not start. No firing.
* I am getting a spark from coil to dist and from dist to plugs.
* Fuel pump seems to be working fine (I tested with catch bottle).
* I Propped open choke and sprayed starter fluid in carb - no help.

Recent History:

I've been driving it almost every day for five years. Always been running well up to a few months ago. Around that time I discovered there had been a leak in my radiator which really did a number on my air filter/carburetor. They were covered in crud. So...I installed a new radiator and got a new air filter.

However, I noticed that the car would stall when I started it cold and then put the car in gear. I checked out the electric choke and realized it was way off setting. I don't ever remember touching it before. Maybe it was always like that since I got it? Anyway, I reset the choke so that it would actually be CLOSED when the engine was cold. This seemed to fix my problem. I may have even over did it a little since now the engine was really revving in idle. I fiddled with the idle screws a bit. Things were fine for a few weeks until one morning my car just wouldn't start at all for the first time ever! Engine would crank and crank, but not start? Took the bus to work. Tried a number of things, but no luck. Finally, I decided to rebuild the carburetor since it was pretty darn dirty due to to the leaky radiator grime and I don't know the last time it was cleaned. Rebuilt the carb (even got a great book on carter/edelbrock carbs). Clean as a whistle now and I put it back on the car. Oh, and I got a new set of plugs and a battery, too. When I turned the key, it started right up. Oh boy!...but...

It's been a few weeks since I've done this work and there have been a handful of times that the car still won't start. The car DOES start sometimes. When it does, it starts up quick and strong. I've been tearing my hair out trying to find out what's going on here. Since I've owned it, I've never had a problem starting the engine. Now when I jump in the car, I don't know if it's gonna start.

Two mornings ago, I could not start the car, I propped open the choke and used starting fluid. The engine cranked and cylinders fired, but it would not totally start. I had to keep the starter motor going as it sputtered and eventually the engine started to run steady after about 16 seconds of holding the ignition switch on. It worked for the rest of the day and started up just fine later that day.

I've been leaning towards the idea that my fuel mixture is too rich and my engine is getting flooded. But would this really happen after the car has been sitting for a whole day and I just crank my engine? I tightened the idle screws to test and it seemed to have no effect.

If anybody has any clue to what might be going on here, please let me know. If you can think of any more test I can try, that would be good, too.

Thanks to anybody to took the time to read all of this and/or replied. I will updated this thread so maybe it will help somebody else in the future in the archive.

-Todd

Iamdiffrnt · Oct 3, 2007

When It won't start, if you move the throttle do you see any gasoline squirting in the carb? You may have a bad fuel pump. Works sometimes, but not others...

Hope this helps.

iskwezm · Oct 3, 2007

My old Edelbrock carb used to have bad problem with dirt. it would get clogged with sediment very easily and run like crap till it was cleaned out.

xoxbxfx · Oct 3, 2007

Iamdiffrnt said:
When It won't start, if you move the throttle do you see any gasoline squirting in the carb? You may have a bad fuel pump. Works sometimes, but not others...

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE

Check that...maybe the line is clogged or the jets in the carb. Have you checked timing? Does it try and start? Stutter? Or just plain nothing?

RUSTYNUT · Oct 3, 2007

Check for a sticking float. I rebuilt a carb and had the same issue. Turned out the new float tabs would hang up now and then. A little grinding solved the problem.

jcode68 · Oct 3, 2007

When you checked the fuel pumpt using a catch can, was this before or after the inline fuel filter? Possible filter is clogged. As others suggested, could be sediment in the carb as well.

xoxbxfx · Oct 3, 2007

jcode68 said:
When you checked the fuel pumpt using a catch can, was this before or after the inline fuel filter? Possible filter is clogged. As others suggested, could be sediment in the carb as well.

from my experience with clogged filters, they will unclog themselves and allow the sediment to fall to the bottom, allowing gas flow until there is a good amount of suction or pressure to stir up the sediment again. The car should still be able to run, just really crappy

Doesnt hurt to look though

todderasesaredd · Oct 3, 2007

xoxbxfx said:
Iamdiffrnt said:

When It won't start, if you move the throttle do you see any gasoline squirting in the carb? You may have a bad fuel pump. Works sometimes, but not others...

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE

Check that...maybe the line is clogged or the jets in the carb. Have you checked timing? Does it try and start? Stutter? Or just plain nothing?

Click to expand...

When I yank the throttle on the carb by hand, plenty of fuel comes from both accel pump nozzles. I just tried it again. Although I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure it's not an issue of clogged fuel lines or faulty fuel pumps. When I rebuilt my carburetor, I squirted carb cleaner through every tiny whole I could find to make sure nothing was blocking flow of air or fuel. That thing is clean and in working order. I also replaced the carb accelerator pump just in case. The bottom line is that rebuilding the whole carb seems to not have helped this problem. If my floats were stuck/malfunctioning then I would not be able to squirt fuel from my accelerator jets, at least I think. However, since I still have car that won't start. I'm at a loss.

Just now when I tried to start the engine, it cranked for the first two tries. Then on the third and fourth I actually got a little cylinder firing action just briefly. Then fifth and sixth tries, just cranking.

Oh also one thing to note is that I do notice after cranking the engine a few times, the carburetor will sometimes "burb" gasoline right after I stop cranking. A bit will shoot right straight up out of the carb. Not sure exactly why or if that would be considered abnormal and maybe a sign of what's wrong.

Also, I forgot to mention that I have a hairline crack in one exhaust manifold and a pretty big tear in one muffler. Those will be fixed as soon as I can figure my problem here, but mentioned them just in case there a change either one could be a factor.

Also, whenever the car does start, it never stalls.

Thanks to everybody who replied! I'm not sure what to try next. Wish I could think of more tests. I really think it's gotta be something simple, but who knows.

-Todd

D.Hearne · Oct 3, 2007

I can't believe nobody's caught this one. Your whole problem is the distributor, namely the internal parts. Still got points in it? If so, that's the problem. Get a points distributor wet = no start. Not even if it's damp, still no start. Dry it out, completely--don't get it wet--again. Best thing to do to avoid future problems is replace the points with an electronic conversion module.

todderasesaredd · Oct 3, 2007

D.Hearne said:
I can't believe nobody's caught this one. Your whole problem is the distributor, namely the internal parts. Still got points in it? If so, that's the problem. Get a points distributor wet = no start. Not even if it's damp, still no start. Dry it out, completely--don't get it wet--again. Best thing to do to avoid future problems is replace the points with an electronic conversion module.

Hmmm....cool.

I thought of the distributer, but I thought that since I was getting a spark at the plugs I could rule that out. I've pulled a couple plug wires one at a time and exposed the metal grip inside by pulling back the rubber wire boot. Then I placed the end of the wire on it's side leaving the metal bit sticking out at the end hovering a little less than 1/4 inch from the block. When I crank the engine, I see a regular spark, roughly about one every second or so. Granted, I did not check every plug wire.

If the problem is the distributor, would I still be seeing a spark like I am? Also, it hasn't been rainy or damp lately. I don't have any experience dealing with distributors, so I'm a bit ignorant here. Any advice/tips on how to effectively dry out the inside of the dist?

Thanks for the lead!

JDS68Stang · Oct 4, 2007

My instincts are telling me your choke is causing you these problems, your not getting enough air intake on start up and then the plugs get soaked.

I think when you are lucky enough to get it to fire up the suction opens the choke just enough to keep it going. My impression is the choke is malfunctioning.

Try for the next few days on the first cold start opening the choke manually and dropping a screw driver down a bit to hold it fully open, then attempt to start it, does it fire up? Pump gas pedal once or twice first. (clothes pin might work better than screw driver, just dont drop screw driver in to deep to interfere w/ the venturis if you use that)

It may run a bit rough till warmed up but I can distinctly remember having this problem oh some 30 years ago or so, lol. I bet my older brother would know for sure but can't really call him right now considering it's 4:00 a.m. here.

If that's not any help gotta consider what could have gotten affected by the constant spray of the coolant over that period of time on everything. I was leaning towards the points and condenser myself but saw that allready posted.

You did replace the old condenser right? That could have gotten wet from the spray over time with your radiator problem, for $4.00 that's worth a try.

A hair blow dryer should dry moisture out but coolant will need to be wiped off. Good luck.

D.Hearne · Oct 4, 2007

Your radiator hose episode is what initially caused this. It dumped all over the distributor. You've compounded the problem in trying to get it started since. You've probably also fouled the plugs with excess fuel. Clean and dry out the distributor and replace the spark plugs. Ditch the points for an electronic module ASAP.

xoxbxfx · Oct 4, 2007

Are you sure you are not 180* off with the distributor? Id double check it at top dead center.

todderasesaredd · Oct 4, 2007

I'm going to try some things this Saturday. I'll update the thread. Thanks all!

gtss · Oct 4, 2007

I would totally agree with D.Hearne but would also add that because the plugs have been getting wet due to the repeated no starts, in effect flooding.
I would check/change the oil because the repeated no starts will have gas washing down the cylinder walls and contaminating the oil with gasoline
good luck
gtss

dodgestang · Oct 4, 2007

Stick shift car? Have you checked your clutch linkages?

What this video (its from a BBQ I had at the house a couple months ago).....and listen to the black 68 trying to start....his clutch linkage was loose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REUstso6uj0

todderasesaredd · Oct 6, 2007

OK. I hopped in this morning and turned the ignition. Vrroooooom! Started right up.

I think my initial hunch is correct. The engine is getting flooded -really flooded. Some of you guys seem to have guessed that, as well.

The distributor theory was a good possibility, but I'm definitely getting sparks and there really is no weather difference between today and two days ago. My dist cap is tight and the coolant didn't make it inside. It's dry.

Once the engine was flooded, I was screwed until it dried out. Every time I tried starting the car, it only made the situation worse. Now, I need to mess with the choke linkage and idle screws to significantly lean out the mixture.

Thanks a lot for all the responses. The forum is great!

-Todd

D.Hearne · Oct 6, 2007

With points ignition, all that's needed to keep it from sparking is steam from hot coolant. It may be dry now, but it wasn't when the radiator hose puked all over it. Been-there, Done-that too many times. A simple trip to the car wash and the spray wand passing too close to the distributor is all it takes to do this. One more reason to not use points. After a nuclear exchange? Yea. Otherwise the damned things are long since obsolete.

JDS68Stang · Oct 8, 2007

todderasesaredd said:
OK. I hopped in this morning and turned the ignition. Vrroooooom! Started right up.........

............Once the engine was flooded, I was screwed until it dried out. Every time I tried starting the car, it only made the situation worse. Now, I need to mess with the choke linkage and idle screws to significantly lean out the mixture.

Thanks a lot for all the responses. The forum is great!

-Todd

Try my suggestion earlier about holding open the choke and trying a cold start for a few days. First off remove the air cleaner and visibly see if the choke is totally closed or stuck though. Do what you would usually do before a start (pump the linkage by hand and watch what the choke does), does it totally close up, is it sticking? It may work normal one day and not the next also.

You can totally disengage the choke and try just running with it open awhile, just warm up a bit more before going to work ect... , better yet take it out and around and get back home, retry it again when cooled close to home incase it won't start again for a few days.

I wouldn't mess with the carb adjustment screws just yet unless you know it's getting to much fuel from that reason. If it ran good after starting before, the adjustments probably are not contributing to the problem. It's best to trouble shoot one item at a time.

I think it is your choke like I said before, but I wouldn't write off D.Hearnes suggestions either and I would at least replace the points and condenser and rule them out also. My condenser just recently caused me two days of trouble shooting headaches, I thought it was the carb. originally. My car ran good then instantly like crap, then hard start, had flooding symptoms I was sure, I was very wrong.

Let us know eventually how you make out once the problem is solved.

speed1972 · Oct 8, 2007

D.Hearne said:
With points ignition, all that's needed to keep it from sparking is steam from hot coolant. It may be dry now, but it wasn't when the radiator hose puked all over it. Been-there, Done-that too many times. A simple trip to the car wash and the spray wand passing too close to the distributor is all it takes to do this. One more reason to not use points. After a nuclear exchange? Yea. Otherwise the damned things are long since obsolete.

I think everyone agrees that points are old school and there are better options out there but in this case, he didn't have a problem until he rebuilt the carb. Yes the car would stall cold but anyone that doesn't have the choke set properly will either stall a car or it will run like crap until it warms up..... Go back to the last thing you changed, that is 99% what is causing your problem now.

JDS68Stang said:
Try my suggestion earlier about holding open the choke and trying a cold start for a few days. First off remove the air cleaner and visibly see if the choke is totally closed or stuck though. Do what you would usually do before a start (pump the linkage by hand and watch what the choke does), does it totally close up, is it sticking? It may work normal one day and not the next also.

You can totally disengage the choke and try just running with it open awhile, just warm up a bit more before going to work ect... , better yet take it out and around and get back home, retry it again when cooled close to home incase it won't start again for a few days.

I wouldn't mess with the carb adjustment screws just yet unless you know it's getting to much fuel from that reason. If it ran good after starting before, the adjustments probably are not contributing to the problem. It's best to trouble shoot one item at a time.

I think it is your choke like I said before, but I wouldn't write off D.Hearnes suggestions either and I would at least replace the points and condenser and rule them out also. My condenser just recently caused me two days of trouble shooting headaches, I thought it was the carb. originally. My car ran good then instantly like crap, then hard start, had flooding symptoms I was sure, I was very wrong.

Let us know eventually how you make out once the problem is solved.

Definitely start with the choke. As stated above, always go back to the last thing you checked. By forcing the choke to stay open, you are taking the choke out of the equation. Closed choke is only forcing more fuel into the engine and getting the plugs wet. Once that happens, it will never start. Same thing goes for spraying starting fluid down the carb. You propped open the choke but flooded it with a different method. If it wasn't getting fuel at all, this would have fired it up but in your case, you are getting too much fuel and this just amplifies the effect.

Oh and like JD said, don't worry about the adjstment screws right now as long as it is running fine once it does start......

Let us know how it goes.

LB

Hard Starting: Looking for possile leads...

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