Historic's suspension set up.

Not being a "bully" or a "hater" (funny how when someone disagrees they get such a title), but plastic with a bolt cemented in it? Does NASA know of this part when they tech your car?

Extruded aluminum 1" blocks are only $9 a piece. Can't really see that as even a budget breaker.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/as...q.0/cont.1/intPgNo.1/redirect./qx/product.htm

Enought enough lets get back to subject I'm interested in..............................................................................................................






Have you thought about boxing in the control arms with a piece of steel welded on to reduce flex?

How far was your shelby drop because I have heard of people going over the 1" recomended limit and not having any bind.

Have you thought about moving some how the shock mount since your car is very low it tends to bottom out the shocks quickly how about moving them somehow or designing a different mounting point to have a better use of their available travel.

who is this GT2k guy? historic has dozens of races under his belt... actual, competitive, circle track races, and has shown videos of him passing the hell out of other, more modern cars... and this random guy comes up and talks (slang for bologna)? Dude... he actually races his car... go away.

HistoricMustang said:

Will pull the details together and before anyone says "plastic" is not safe back there, the thing has been around Daytona and Lowes at speed and my "butt" is still intact so it works.

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heh!

If plastic was not safe there wouldn't be a car on the road made after 1972.

SadbutTrue said:

who is this GT2k guy? historic has dozens of races under his belt... actual, competitive, circle track races, and has shown videos of him passing the hell out of other, more modern cars... and this random guy comes up and talks (slang for bologna)? Dude... he actually races his car... go away.

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Maybe you need to do a little research... you could start by looking at his finishes (last, 2nd to last, 4th in a field of 4, etc.) I'll give him credit for fielding a car in a VERY challenging class (but uh circle track? not exactly how I would describe AIX). He just told you to use a piece of plastic from Lowes between your rearend and leafsprings are YOU getting it yet?

Later.

Consider this...

Up Front -

Shelby Drop - old school and proven
1 1/8" Front Sway Bar - old school and proven
Front coils cut to drop front end 2 1/2" - Holy smokes, what spring rate do we find ourselves at now?
Poly everywhere - How about those strut rods? On a flat track would probably last, but on the streets you're destined to snap.
Monte Carlo Bar - old school and proven
Ford original Export Brace - old school and proven
KYB shocks up front - old school and proven
Toe In 1/8" total
Camber 1 degree negative
Caster 2 1/2 to 3 degrees positive
Quick steering box and Shelby pitman arm - old school and proven
Granada spindle and brakes - there are better choices now in the same cost field that will not induce bumpsteer and other poor handling characteristics
Brake Master cylinder from '70 Mustang
Ford Upper and Lower control arms - would box'em at the very least for a "track car"
7" x 15" rims with 245 x 45 Hoosiers - 245 on a 7" wide rim is a little much don't you say?

In the Rear -

5 leaf springs with reverse eye - old school and proven
1" lowering block (homemade) with wedge - we've looked at this "ingenuity"
Above two items drop rear about 2 1/2" - ok
9" Detroit Locker Rear End narrowed 1/2" each side - nowadays we achieve the same effect by backspacing wheels correctly
No rear sway bar - as most road racers do
Standard Ford Mustang shocks - you stiffen the rear so much with 5 leafs and then can't drop the extra $15 on KYBs alteast?
Poly bushings - not many spots for these in the rear
8 1/2" x 15" rims with 245 x 45 Hoosiers - ah yes, these 245s are on an 8.5" rim

SadbutTrue said:

who is this GT2k guy? historic has dozens of races under his belt... actual, competitive, circle track races, and has shown videos of him passing the hell out of other, more modern cars... and this random guy comes up and talks (slang for bologna)? Dude... he actually races his car... go away.

Click to expand...

I don't want to over generalize or start any inter-forum rivalry but many of the folks over at VMF seem to have a chip on their shoulder. If I didn't know better I'd say they were from a BMW forum or something. There are many glaring exceptions where VMFers have come to SNF and been cordial and contributed (Dodgestang comes to mind at the top), and you don't sense the haughtiness of the VMFer when you are on their forum either. But I honestly don't know why so many folks come in to the SNF and try to trash our members, I see it from many other groups. Anyone remember the RX7 guy? Corner-carvers and VMFers seem to do it most regularly though.

Only thing I can think of is they are jealous of the community. We have folks from all walks of life here, young and old, rich and poor, show cars and (ahem) jewels-in-the-rough (and cars like mine that have no rolled under their own power in ~10 years). We don't trash each other here and we don't appreciate those who do. If you want to suggest a better way of lowering your car by all means do, but leave the personal and ad-hominem attacks elswhere.

Edbert said:

I don't want to over generalize or start any inter-forum rivalry but many of the folks over at VMF seem to have a chip on their shoulder. If I didn't know better I'd say they were from a BMW forum or something. There are many glaring exceptions where VMFers have come to SNF and been cordial and contributed (Dodgestang comes to mind at the top), and you don't sense the haughtiness of the VMFer when you are on their forum either. But I honestly don't know why so many folks come in to the SNF and try to trash our members, I see it from many other groups. Anyone remember the RX7 guy? Corner-carvers and VMFers seem to do it most regularly though.

Only thing I can think of is they are jealous of the community. We have folks from all walks of life here, young and old, rich and poor, show cars and (ahem) jewels-in-the-rough (and cars like mine that have no rolled under their own power in ~10 years). We don't trash each other here and we don't appreciate those who do. If you want to suggest a better way of lowering your car by all means do, but leave the personal and ad-hominem attacks elswhere.

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Generalized generalizations are just that I'm not making this a forum thing just a common sense thing. If you think stangnet has a different demographic you are wrong. But like you said, let's not make this an inter-forum whatever...

The real deal is that someone is feeding you all some outdated and in some cases unsafe info ... and for some reason stangnet seems to be the only place so far that is swallowing it

I think we should all remember that Historic is really doing nothing unusual with his set-up. I have NO PROBLEMS with his set up. It works for him, that is great.

My problem comes when he starts preaching that the kind of stuff I have on my car is not needed to make my car perform well.

I am fully aware that you can make an old Mustang handle well by simply doing the mods he has done to his car. However, I am not after "good enough", I am after that "late model rocketship", and to attain that, improvements need to be made.

If you want what he has, do it! If you are not looking to compete with the top of the line cars, and just want to play, then Historics tried and proven methods are the way to go.

Want to pass him, and catch that "late model rocketship" then catch up with the technology, and spend the money on the right parts.

87

Guys,

I really don't want to have to close this thread, but if we keep on putting fuel on the fire I'm going to have to.

GT2K,

You've made your point about his setup. I agree that I wouldn't consider using plastic lower blocks either. Now hopefully when someone sees this thread they will consider other options.

No problemo.

FWIW, I don't have the know-how to back up anything regarding the build of a race car. Nor do I really care to. What I do know is that someone that regularly campaigns a race car of the same vintage as my weekend toy manages to compete (to a degree) with a setup much like my street car. If I had a couple million to spend on my car, you can believe it wouldn't still have Granadas and stock steering. Since that isn't the case, it is still cool to see what can be done with the old tech. (though my lowering blocks are metal)

I've gotten plenty of useful info from Historic, and I'd like to see GT2K stick around if for no other reason than he's making people think.

I don't know about any "this forum is one way, that forum is another". I've lurked VMF before and seen alot of good, useful stuff. I just don't like the forum software there. Whatever the forum demographics may be, I'm not an impressionable youngster.

so can someone answer my questions.

you had a question?

I've watched this go on and on, here, on VMF, and on CC, and I think lots of folks have lost a bit of perspective, especially GT2K and Historic here.

to GT2K: While you may not approve of some of the stuff Historic says, even your own analysis of his setup, with your "old school and proven" and "there are better choices" comments, acknowledges that much of what he has done is functional and "proven". And while you may criticize certain aspects of his setup as questionable, ultimately, the evidence for or against those aspects is in the reality of their effectiveness and safety, not in suppositions or prejudice.

Therefor, assuming some questionable part of his setup actually works (work with me here for a sec), like the Lowes plastic lowering blocks, then the only real concern is safety. This is where Historic's only evidence is that he isn't dead yet. He doesn't have any numbers about the density or structural integrity of the component and he is using it for a purpose that it was not designed for. If this is your concern about any of his mods, then I agree. This should be a concern everybody, including Historic.


to Historic: I appreciate your approach of building a competitive car on a budget. However, even you must admit that higher end components from TCP, GlobalWest, Griggs, or whoever, may (and probably do) offer more performance potential. Don't knock 'em and say they aren't functional or they aren't necessary. They are, and they may be. Its probably just best to admit that you don't need them for what you're trying to accomplish.

You should also acknowledge concerns about safety and be a bit more vigilant. Safety is not a matter of best guess ("uh, this looks like it could work...") and rolling the dice ("...and its seems hard enough"), but rather using good engineering and testing approaches ("the component should be this size, must have these specs, and it meets these pressure tests"). We are at such a point in technological development that if you are serious about what you do, there is technology available to help develop and analyze components fairly inexpensively (if not downright cheap). Like the Lowes blocks you've gotten hassled for... you should be able to contact the manufacturer and get the specs, thus giving you data that you can use to make calculations. Put them in one of the computer programs available for estimating structural integrity and you'll have a better defined idea of their limits and safety. If the specs meet the function intended, then its an ok choice, right? If not, back to the drawing board.


to Everybody: Lets keep some perspective... Components just have to function and perform correctly, while being safe; it doesn't matter where they came from or how they're built. The Lowes blocks might be ok if they're functional and safe. Cutting springs isn't, in itself, wrong to do, even 2.5". As long as they function correctly, don't make the car unsafe or unpredictable, and the car performs the way the driver needs, it doesn't matter what the spring rate is, does it? The question becomes: is it specs come before function, or does function come before specs? In my opinion, specs (i.e. spring rate, sway bar diameter, structural integrity of lowering blocks) should be determined by the function it will serve. If stiffer springs are needed, it doesn't matter if they're 1000lb/in, even if that sounds insane. If that is what is needed, then that is what is should be used.

And don't forget that racers and backyard mechanics have created components from parts bins and hardware stores since day 1, using stuff for things for purposes they weren't originally designed for, and built some effective, functional, and safe vehicles. Billet, stainless, extruded, etc. hasn't always been available, but still cars got built and driven. The aftermarket supply of well designed parts and components hasn't always been so good, which meant if folks wanted/needed something, they built it from what they had or designed something new . Imagine that...

All of that said, I do think it is important to acknowledge that stuff from TCP, GW, Griggs, Cobra Automotive, etc., is great stuff, built out of the desire for better (design and material) components. I also think that we should choose to benefit from this stuff if it fits our needs and budgets. However, it is equally important to acknowledge that while that stuff is available, our own needs/desires may be able to be satisfied without them. Do I really need tubular control arms, or the perfect ball joint angle, or rollerize spring perches, or rack&pinion steering? Maybe, maybe not. I can imagine circumstances for both. And if I do need them, should I necessarily get them from those folks if I can build something functional and safe for less? Ever heard of home brewed rollerized perches, or rack&pinion, or boxed lowers, or tubular strut rods? Yep...

Keep some perspective, quit raining on other peoples' parades, offer some good constructive feedback, and keep the insults and chastising out of it. And realize, if you do otherwise, you will alienate people and damage what little integrity you can have over the internet. And if that doesn't matter to you, do the rest of us a favor and stay off the internet entirely...

Holy Krapp.. it's good to be ALIVE!!!!

Hey since this thread has everyone's attention... anybody ever get their rear end housing powder coated? Any issues? Cost?

It's fun watching these little spats break out from time to time. MY only advice is that you limit the length of your responses. I can't stand reading 500 word essay's about people not liking other people. Keep them short and to the point.

As for the two principal parties, have at it. I'm smart enough to figure out what sounds like good advice and what sounds like a fart in the wind.

I got the impression that GT2K might just have a little bit of a jealous chip on his shoulder. So what. We're all jealous Historic has the time and cash. Maybe GT2K just got sick of the "chest thumping" and felt like calling him out. Exposing a poser? Whatever.

Anyways... I'll hang up now and listen to your answer (radio slogan).

HAVE FUN PEOPLE!!!!

DarkBuddha,
You've kind of warped my line by line commentary on "the setup" ... noting things are old school and proven was to highlight that the only things new to the table here are questionable and potentially unsafe or proven in an "I'm not dead yet" manner.

I've done a lot of backyard engineering myself over the years but there are some areas you don't wanna take chances with.

Enough on this, someone had a question?

That be me.

BAD67FUN said:

I got the impression that GT2K might just have a little bit of a jealous chip on his shoulder. So what. We're all jealous Historic has the time and cash.

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Feel free to check out my car at http://www.classic-mustang.net/jay though it's a bit outdated and does not cover the Flaming River R&P, the AOD, or the JBA / Borla exhaust I'm finishing this winter. Here's a quick picture too (not a jealousy issue on my side for sure):

You DIRTY BASSTURD!!! That car looks SWEET!! I hate you!!!

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.....