How Big Is Too Big???

FoxMustangLvr · Nov 19, 2015

mikestang63 said:
yep yep

1. plan on getting mabe $.50 on the dollar for what you have invested if you sell
2. getting these cars to perform to what a stock muscle car of today does is often out of the budget of most guys. Getting a pushrod motor to 400+ reliable HP is easily $4-5k and then you need to address all the other components of the drivetrain- voila $10-20k.... and then you are afraid to drive it anywhere because it will get stolen/hit/breakdown etc.

I bought my current car for $5k and probably have another $6k in it, and it still has the stock brakes, 4 lug wheels, needs a better torque converter, and only makes about 350ish crank hp. I could easily drop another $3-5k ( vortech, 5 lug disc conversion, wheels,) but wondering if it's worth it at this point.

I'd venture a guess that the average 302 with HCI and a decent driver could keep up with the stock modern muscle cars of today. For me the Fox is all about nostalgia and I love the body style and push rod sound when breathing through flowmasters. These cars become problematic for those that want to exceed the typical 302 w/ HCI and shoot for the moon only to land on jack stands in a lot of cases.

For me a stock long block with a Vortech or a 302 w/ HCI should keep the car fun, my wallet happy, and the car on the road. It won't be the fastest but it will be reliable, quick, and fun to drive.

stykthyn · Nov 19, 2015

FoxMustangLvr said:
I'd venture a guess that the average 302 with HCI and a decent driver could keep up with the stock modern muscle cars of today. For me the Fox is all about nostalgia and I love the body style and push rod sound when breathing through flowmasters. These cars become problematic for those that want to exceed the typical 302 w/ HCI and shoot for the moon only to land on jack stands in a lot of cases.

For me a stock long block with a Vortech or a 302 w/ HCI should keep the car fun, my wallet happy, and the car on the road. It won't be the fastest but it will be reliable, quick, and fun to drive.

Laws of Newtonian physics say we only need 275rwhp to keep up with a coyote.
@MFE92 has been pushing his Fox around porches and bimmers for quite some time now.

A5literMan · Nov 19, 2015

While I understand the stated logical options, I don't exactly agree. Getting 400 hp out of a 302 dependably is slightly a challenge but not that big of a deal. Blower/fuel system alone does that on a relatively stock setup. I look at these cars as hobbyist cars nowadays. They still have a low buy in cost compared to the older muscle cars and yet can be modified many ways. I like bone stock to full on race cars. I obviously prefer more "race". I bought a brand new 93 GT and did the popular "15 minute tune-up" and took it to the track in the first month of owning it. I think the big problems are that they are 22+ years old. Especially electronics. There isn't a 20+ year old car that I "want" to drive on a daily basis. And show me a car that doesn't depreciate/loss money on. I think of mine as a "hot rod" "toy" "fun car" that reminds me of being young and gives me an adrenaline rush/nostalgic feel. If I had more money I'd build a seriously fast/loud/obnoxious "race car" like 84 ttop or 90lx coupe. Those are what I ultimately want but will probably never do it(to much money/time involved). I do agree that probably the sweet spot for these cars are the simpler versions that incorporates a good powertrain,5lug conversion with nice wheels/brakes and nice paint/interior

stykthyn · Nov 19, 2015

That's why the coyote swap is gaining steam. Removes 90% of that pesky electronics and puts in a power plant that would split a stock block while adding room for growth, decent mileage, and street manners.

mikestang63 · Nov 19, 2015

stykthyn said:
That's why the coyote swap is gaining steam. Removes 90% of that pesky electronics and puts in a power plant that would split a stock block while adding room for growth, decent mileage, and street manners.

I THINK that would be my choice if/when I decide to replace the current motor. For about the same price, you get reliable 400+ hp. modern engineering, electronics. better mpg, and room to grow to 600+ hp with a power adder and a tune. You can probably do a coyote swap these days for around $10k with a used motor and trans I figure?

MFE92 · Nov 19, 2015

stykthyn said:
Laws of Newtonian physics say we only need 275rwhp to keep up with a coyote.
@MFE92 has been pushing his Fox around porches and bimmers for quite some time now.

Yes, but it's getting harder and harder to do. Cars are SO good these days it's almost hard to believe. And, as I found when I broke my engine a few months ago, pushrod 5.0 blocks and parts are no longer a dime a dozen, but junkyard Coyotes are getting there. The old "find an Explorer engine and call it a day" doesn't carry much water anymore when most of them have 100k+ miles on them. If you want reliability you can trust, you're going to have to tear those down and rebuild, which means you're really only buying the shortblock, heads and intake plus necessary machine shop time and labor. And then at the end of the day all you have is an iron GT40P engine, which isn't setting the world on fire. And the days of $100 junkyard blocks as a base for your own top-end recipe are rapidly fading behind us.

The crazy thing is, a Coyote crate engine is maybe $6100, which costs LESS than a pushrod Boss 302 crate engine ($6350), and makes 100 more HP. Problem is, the Coyote still needs a $1500 control pack, a different K-member, headers, and a TKO-style trans. So it starts adding up fast. Sure, there are cheaper ways to go Coyote, for instance decently low-mile F250 engines are in junkyards for about $2000, but you still need the control pack, you still need to figure out the instrument cluster, still need the K-member and all the rest.

All that said, when I replaced my engine, I gave serious thought to going junkyard Coyote. But *my* priority was getting a working known-good engine in the car and getting it back on the road before summer with a minimum of ****y, so I ended up with an old but never used 302/GT40Y/E303 crate engine. Almost totally plug & play, for less than half what it would cost to even start a Coyote project, but a lot more expensive than it was the last time I had to do it....yet still only marginally (if at all) more powerful/faster than my old engine.

stykthyn · Nov 19, 2015

Excellent post as always

89oem · Nov 19, 2015

Coyote T56 magnum and all the fixings, There are no words to say what its like driving a fox with modern manners and 7000+RPM of instant go and a straightline TQ and HP curve.

I bet The guys with newer coyotes and foxes like @hoopty5.0 and @84Ttop look at their cars and go I wonder if I ....

I know @TOOLOW91 gets it, he's built a blown one..

Im amazed everytime I turn the key, Its THE best thing Ive ever done to a car...

And costs do run pretty high to do it right just like the referenced builds in here, but the modern drive train is the icing on the cake.

23 MPG topdown air blowing ice cold at 80 mph on the interstate in August, not too shabby.

TOOLOW91 · Nov 19, 2015

I agree 100 percent @89oem . I thought about doing an aluminator with a billet Jt trim vortech and putting my motor in a race car . But my funds won't allow that right now

Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

A5literMan · Nov 19, 2015

89oem said:
Coyote T56 magnum and all the fixings, There are no words to say what its like driving a fox with modern manners and 7000+RPM of instant go and a straightline TQ and HP curve.

I bet The guys with newer coyotes and foxes like @hoopty5.0 and @84Ttop look at their cars and go I wonder if I ....

I know @TOOLOW91 gets it, he's built a blown one..

Im amazed everytime I turn the key, Its THE best thing Ive ever done to a car...

And costs do run pretty high to do it right just like the referenced builds in here, but the modern drive train is the icing on the cake.

23 MPG topdown air blowing ice cold at 80 mph on the interstate in August, not too shabby.

Now that I'm thinking about it...you need to post some pics of that car. I think I've only seen one lol

A5literMan · Nov 19, 2015

Oh and coyote swap is badass...but can it be done for 10k? Seriously asking. Seems to me it's still a 15-20k project. I really messed up if it is 10k

84Ttop · Nov 20, 2015

89oem said:
I bet The guys with newer coyotes and foxes like @hoopty5.0 and @84Ttop look at their cars and go I wonder if I ....
.

I've wondered... wondered some more and have really been thinking about pulling the trigger on something like this. I've got some things in the works and if/when I make up my mind I'll divulge

89oem · Nov 20, 2015

Ya I need to post up pics...

For the swap it really depends on your starting platform and goals (as we all know)

Im running full PS, PB (hydroboost) and AC, AC took months of research, phone calls, trial and error in the end it works awesome and correctly with a blend of Fox and Coyote AC components,

Every step needs decisioning as to how it impacts the whole and everyone is doing it a little different with still limited aftermarket parts but that list is growing.

Folks like @Mustang5L5 and @TOOLOW91 and some really good guys on Corral and FRPP gave some very helpful advise along the way on things.

My platform was my 100% original factory car with over 200k miles on it - so build or swap -

I chose swap after talking and asking allot about builds here and other sites and then seeing the last swap the shop had done and am very happy with that decision. The relationship with the shop is great and I consider the guys friends now for sure!

Hardly one pieces of stock Fox product remains in the drivetrain or suspension.

Motor 6 k with 2yr 24k mile warranty from FRPP (very helpful folks there too for reference)
PCM 1,,500
MM k and stuff 1k+ (also very helpful folks!)
trans to mate and take power 3k
tune $$
etc etc etc

So like a E7 hci build reference yes 10 k can do it but REALITY plan on 15k to start as we known it snowballs, (Thanks Norm Abrams -while youre at it - ugh) and supporting parts add up fast.

Again, modern, smooth and over 7k RPM outta the box - whats not to love

How that compares to fully built dart with boost? IDK, but each has its pluses and fans.

89oem · Nov 20, 2015

84Ttop said:
I've wondered... wondered some more and have really been thinking about pulling the trigger on something like this. I've got some things in the works and if/when I make up my mind I'll divulge

But what will Vortech think of you running a VMP-TVS, lol

Seriously you gotta build one!!

mikestang63 · Nov 20, 2015

89oem said:
Ya I need to post up pics...

For the swap it really depends on your starting platform and goals (as we all know)

Im running full PS, PB (hydroboost) and AC, AC took months of research, phone calls, trial and error in the end it works awesome and correctly with a blend of Fox and Coyote AC components,

Every step needs decisioning as to how it impacts the whole and everyone is doing it a little different with still limited aftermarket parts but that list is growing.

Folks like @Mustang5L5 and @TOOLOW91 and some really good guys on Corral and FRPP gave some very helpful advise along the way on things.

My platform was my 100% original factory car with over 200k miles on it - so build or swap -

I chose swap after talking and asking allot about builds here and other sites and then seeing the last swap the shop had done and am very happy with that decision. The relationship with the shop is great and I consider the guys friends now for sure!

Hardly one pieces of stock Fox product remains in the drivetrain or suspension.

Motor 6 k with 2yr 24k mile warranty from FRPP (very helpful folks there too for reference)
PCM 1,,500
MM k and stuff 1k+ (also very helpful folks!)
trans to mate and take power 3k
tune $$
etc etc etc

So like a E7 hci build reference yes 10 k can do it but REALITY plan on 15k to start as we known it snowballs, (Thanks Norm Abrams -while youre at it - ugh) and supporting parts add up fast.

Again, modern, smooth and over 7k RPM outta the box - whats not to love

How that compares to fully built dart with boost? IDK, but each has its pluses and fans.

i am sure a LOT of guys here- including myself- would greatly appreciate it if you could post the list of parts you used to accomplish the swap. Oh and pics!

A5literMan · Nov 20, 2015

mikestang63 said:
i am sure a LOT of guys here- including myself- would greatly appreciate it if you could post the list of parts you used to accomplish the swap. Oh and pics!

Agreed. And I'm rethinking my initial build ideas. I can sell/part out my project and be 1/2 way done to a coyote swap..:errrr I'm really contemplating this.

89oem · Nov 20, 2015

Let me get my stuff together and throw up a thread, I just get side tracked with work and life ...

TOOLOW91 · Nov 20, 2015

89oem said:
But what will Vortech think of you running a VMP-TVS, lol

Seriously you gotta build one!!

We know that won't happen . Besides I was at a track with someone who had a tvs car with all the seats out of it spare out of the trunk etc and another" vortech "car full weight same cars diff blowers both 2015 .... The only diff is the tvs car has about 15-20 passes and this vortech car had 2 .... They were ran that day and went faster on just those 2 passes then the tvs car .

Here's were I get to smile and laugh @84Ttop and say it pays to be on the inside Lol !

Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

A5literMan · Nov 20, 2015

89oem said:
Let me get my stuff together and throw up a thread, I just get side tracked with work and life ...

Also what shop did you use?

TOOLOW91 · Nov 20, 2015

A5literMan said:
Agreed. And I'm rethinking my initial build ideas. I can sell/part out my project and be 1/2 way done to a coyote swap..:errrr I'm really contemplating this.

If you need help advice don't hesitate to pm me . I did one of the first swaps over here over 2 years ago now .

Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

How Big Is Too Big???

FoxMustangLvr

I love my Pimp

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.

mikestang63

MFE92

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.

89oem

Mustang Master

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

89oem

Mustang Master

89oem

Mustang Master

mikestang63

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

89oem

Mustang Master

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

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