How Big Is Too Big???

Scurvilicous

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Nov 17, 2015
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First of all, I'm pretty new to the forum world and have tried finding the info i need through the search option.
That being said I'm undertaking a build on my 94 GT, 5.0 with a T5. Ultimately i want to go with a turbo or supercharger with a aftermarket 347 or 363 block. I want to do this in stages, stage 1 being this winters project ( I'm canadian so weather forces me to park my car from nov-may). I want to start with heads, cam, intake, fuel system and keep the bone stock bottom end. I dont mind re-buying injectors,cam when i step up some more but i dont want to re-buy heads. are afr 205's too big to start with on my stock bottom end? i have an explorer upper and lower intake i want to use on stage 1 as well. what heads to i get that will let me see a good improvement now and after i step up to a larger displacement and then possibly turbo/blower?
 
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The answer to your question is going to be slightly skewed to opinions. My opinion is there really isn't a "too big" head as far as the intake runner goes. You can cam it appropriately and it will run well. Now you're not going to be able to advantage of all the heads ability in your scenario. The intake tract and smaller displacement and mild cam events will not be able to flow enough to make a ton of power.

Now getting an afr head to fit for piston to valve clearance is a whole other problem. The inline valve(especially with the larger radial surface area) isn't going to clear the factory piston valve reliefs. You would have to "create" bigger-deeper reliefs for clearance. This will involve you grinding on the piston tops. This has been done before. I'm not a big fan of this option if not done correctly. You will create a thinner piston top and if you leave sharp edges you can create issues.

The best option IMO(I'm biased because it's what I'm doing lol) is to go with the Trick Flow 11r series heads. The improved valve angle increases ptv clearance. And you can run a fairly aggressive cam without touching the Pistons. My custom cam is 223/227-.525/.525 lift for example. I also would recommend buying your intake now also. Good options are tfs r box,Holley systemaxII,Edelbrock rpm II would be my choices. This head/intake option with some forced induction at a later date would be capable of supporting close to a 1000 hp(may have to do some work to any intake if that were the goal though). You can run the existing intake if you want but it would choke off your present combo. So it would limit what power you could make with a head/cam upgrade. But again it would "run" ok.
 
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First of all, I'm pretty new to the forum world and have tried finding the info i need through the search option.
That being said I'm undertaking a build on my 94 GT, 5.0 with a T5. Ultimately i want to go with a turbo or supercharger with a aftermarket 347 or 363 block. I want to do this in stages, stage 1 being this winters project ( I'm canadian so weather forces me to park my car from nov-may). I want to start with heads, cam, intake, fuel system and keep the bone stock bottom end. I dont mind re-buying injectors,cam when i step up some more but i dont want to re-buy heads. are afr 205's too big to start with on my stock bottom end? i have an explorer upper and lower intake i want to use on stage 1 as well. what heads to i get that will let me see a good improvement now and after i step up to a larger displacement and then possibly turbo/blower?
A 347/363 with forced induction? The real question is should you get your jackstands chromed or custom paint them with cool looking flames? Oh and do you have about $20,000 or more to put in your car over the next couple years as you go through these stages? @TOOLOW91 and @Boosted92LX have pretty much what you wanting and the receipts pile up pretty high real quick and so does the down time.

Good luck, oh and I also agree with @A5literMan 's advice too.
 
@A5literman gave you great advice. Do it once and right the first time

TFS 11r heads
custom cam
Performer II or systemax II intake
Injectors- if n/a 30 if a power adder at least 42 if not 60 on a 347

the one thing I will add is this- if you do not buy a Dart block now, you will be doing this all over again. Do not waste your money on high dollar internals in a stock block build. These blocks split open like a melon once you start pushing 400+ hp. Some guys get lucky and get more time out of the block than others.

To do this right, expect to spend at least 7-10 grand on the motor without the blower., tune, electronics, exhaust, cooling, transmission, clutch, cooling system,, rearend, etc. etc etc. You can easily dump $20000 into these cars. We've all been where you are now........staring into the abyss wondering how far down the hole you are going to go. Are you going to take the blue or red pill, Neo?
 
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@TOOLOW91 gave you great advice. Do it once and right the first time

TFS 11r heads
custom cam
Performer II or systemax II intake
Injectors- if n/a 30 if a power adder at least 42 if not 60 on a 347

the one thing I will add is this- if you do not buy a Dart block now, you will be doing this all over again. Do not waste your money on high dollar internals in a stock block build. These blocks split open like a melon once you start pushing 400+ hp. Some guys get lucky and get more time out of the block than others.

To do this right, expect to spend at least 7-10 grand on the motor without the blower., tune, electronics, exhaust, cooling, transmission, clutch, cooling system,, rearend, etc. etc etc. You can easily dump $20000 into these cars. We've all been where you are now........staring into the abyss wondering how far down the hole you are going to go. Are you going to take the blue or red pill, Neo?
I agree with your points Mike. The one that I mildly disagree with is the intake(if the upgrades I purposed are what you were referring to). He could purchase one of these intakes(non explorer option lol) now and run it on a dart block build. Just depends on the extent of the purposed build. If it's a 6-800 hp build one of these intakes can flow enough air(may need to be worked a little though). I believe Tmoss has ported them into the 300cfm range for example. Even the explorer has been ported into the 280-290cfm range. Which with some forced induction would be more than capable.

Op the one thing you really have to be honest to yourself about is the likelyhood of a full tilt build. Like others have said you're looking at a 20k drivetrain (minimum-more like 30k)if you're going down the "dart block,forced induction,fuel system,better trans/rearend etc" rabbit hole. Not trying to imply you havent considered all of this. Just trying to clarify. If you're going to stay with a stock block I'd cut the cost in 1/2 and just do a h/c/i-blower (and even use some of your existing parts)and make around 400-500rwhp(still pushing the limits but relatively safe). I personally didn't realize how expensive these builds get. The incidentals and labor(if you're not doing it yourself) really adds up. There has been a few "while I'm replacing this, I might as well replace that" moments. I initially expected about 4000$ and have gone over that by about 2k(without a transmission or shortblock upgrade). The favorite saying is add up your supposed costs and double it isnt far off for the "real" cost.
 
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/steps up to soap box.
there's nothing worse than modding a car and it not being what you want. worse than that is adding a bunch of power then living in fear of clutch, transmission, rear end/axles.
I went half a$$'d the first time and ended up cracking the block. Then, the car had to sit while I started saving. Now I've got a car I spent money on and cannot drive. I told myself right then, just save up and do it right, and do it once. For me it took nearly 11 years (lots of extenuating circumstances) however, it's now complete, exactly what i wanted and I have no fear of breaking it.
And as stated above, 20K goes real fast... you can spend more than that on a E7 306 if you put the effort in.
If you cannot wait to save up... well, if I were to do it over again, in stages I would do:
rear end...
suspension...
clutch/transmission...
cooling/fuel/ignition...
buy a block (build short block if funds allow) and stare at it...
build the motor.
Everyone wants power first, and our Mustang Club is littered with Fox's on jack stands due to "budget" builds and broken parts... mine was the longest lived in that category.


And I think Mr. Rawls gave you a very good response elsewhere on the internets... which goes hand in hand with what A5literMan noted in post #3.
 
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you know, I want to touch a little more on the budget of doing it "right".
before I got into "non-stocking" my car, I had a pristine, all original, straight as an arrow low mileage Fox. I had offers of $15K... by club members who knew the car well.
i have since spent well north of $20k making it what I believe Ford should have made... and I'm still sporting 4-lug, stock brakes and a little 306 with stock heads.
for sake of argument, lets say the car is worth $40k (which the insurance company agrees)...
What would you buy for $40K? Bet a 25+ year old Fox noodle is not on the list. I love my car don't get me wrong, but god-forbid it were to be written off... I will not be shopping for an old Fox, and certainly not for someone elses "gem/project" with who knows how many gremlins.
Think about that before you head down the "rabbit hole".
Sure, everyone says they are cheap to modify... but the folks that have done them "right" and have "trouble free" examples, if they are being honest, will have some insight on "cheap".

I don't mean to stomp your desires/dreams... parts for these truly are "cheap", but to do it "right" and ensure longevity, there are a lot of parts involved.
 
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Thanks very much everybody for the input. I completely agree with doing it right the first time. As I stated in the OP i dont want to touch my bottom end this winter and would be alright with not completely utilizing all of what the heads could do until I go with the larger displacement shortblock. as far as the forced induction after that......maybe i was dreaming bigger then what my end goal is. 550-600 WHP is enough for me in the end, and reliability is also importnat. In respsonse to cleanlx , I didnt mention that i have a freshly rebuilt 99 v6 t5, centerforce clutch kit, bbk 255lph fuel pump, FRP 4.10 gear set, and the cobra spec LSD clutches, sub frame connectors. and new shocks and struts already sitting in the shop waiting for install. I havent pulled the trigger on injectors yet because I havent decided on the H C I. That being said, I hope that these parts will be sufficient to handle the HCI and then i can worry about upgrading my drive train from there and then ultimately the larger CI shortblock. I know i should start with the block, but what kind of extra fun aka HP would i get from a Shortblock or upgraded drivetrain this year with stock Heads and intake. Im trying to limit myself to 5k a year and im fully capable of anything short of machine work. again, Thanks everybody for the advice, ive read alot of forum posts but this is the first post of my own and i appreciate you taking the time to try and help.
 
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My advise...save the money until you can jump into exactly what you want out of the engine. I should have done this myself. I would be further along if I had just built the dart block motor on the side and bought most parts once. Now I've spent a bunch of extra cash that will not transfer over to the other build. I will probably be able to sell those parts but at probably a 50% loss. I say do it once. You'll be money ahead and have what you ultimately desire. Just my .02. Good luck and make a progress thread whichever way you decide.
 
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Wellllll... Im with boosted. I could own a real nice termi. Or a used shelby. But anyways.

Do it right and do it once. I did the whole stock block thing that was a bunch of money down the drain. Personally i agree with all the info given in here. if this is the route you choose to go id still get a good intake. Tfs r or a Holley systemax come to mind. I wouldn't waist the money on a cam for the stock block deal. Buy a custom cam once for the big motor(Brian Freezy "Freezy74" on the interwebz is mine and a few others guy for the cam stuff. Id buy 205-225s head wise if you decide to go the route you plan on. That's one place i messed up and under planned for and am sure i am leaving power on the table but that is what it is. t5s - they are a time bomb. I destroyed two that still shifted but didn't sound great while beating on it. Plan on a decent trans. Decent rear. Stiffen the chassis and some good brakes. Fuel system to support the power you want. It adds up fast and spirals out of control.
 
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Man,...I just was dogging @Gearbanger 101 on the other thread for saying the same thing.

What classic car is worth what is invested in it?

Would you pay 100k for the typical "wicked rides" 69 Camaro? or a similarly stupid amount invested in a (insert year) fat fendered street rod?

It's all about what makes the guy that modifies something old versus the one that buys what everybody else can.
All the money invested weighed against what you could have bought for the sake of reliability.

The dollar total invested in any nice ( average) fox over time (12-15k)
Gee! I coulda had a brand new Kia Forte.
The Dollar total invested in a heavily modded version escalates up from there.

You, I, we, all of us coulda had something new and reliable for the dollars invested in a hobby car. I try to be the stalwart flag waver for builing one of them to be reliable before the decision to step off the reliability cliff takes over,...but who am I to talk? I have a $30,000 fairmont.

Everybody should have a 250 I 6 w/ obsolete, un replaceable stuff sourced from all over the world, and then throw a turbocharger on it as icing on the" get in it and go anywhere cake".
 
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FWIW, I'll continue spending money on mine.
To some people it's not about getting the money back out of it when selling because it's something they plan on keeping long term. People that buy and sell frequently should be concerned with getting less than $.50 on the dollar. I'm always concerned about how much I'm investing in my 5.0 and lately I've been thinking about getting out of my 5.0 and stepping up to a 2010+ Audi S4. Most likely won't happen because I hate car payments.

@Scurvilicous I would do the aftermarket stroker block and HCI all at once if your goal is truly to achieve 550-600 whp. Stock blocks typically fold their hand at 450+ flywheel HP. Spend the money on tremec trans, beefing up the rear end, 5 lug conversion and wheels etc while you piece together the block over time. Also, why 4:10 gears with a T5? Are you drag racing a lot? 3.73's are the highest I'd go with a street car and even less if planning boost. What are you going to do for tuning? Are you going to pay someone else every step of the way to keep tuning your car (big $$) or maybe do a DIY tune like megasquirt, PiMP, or quarterhorse?
 
So many cars now come stock with 400+ hp. To me it almost doesn't make sense to build a Fox to those levels. The market is flooded with vehicles that do that for much much cheaper than what it would cost in a sbf. These are nostalgia cars now. If you want them to keep any sort of drivability the costs associated like said are staggering. They seem at their best with a simple hci and suspension goodies.
 
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So many cars now come stock with 400+ hp. To me it almost doesn't make sense to build a Fox to those levels. The market is flooded with vehicles that do that for much much cheaper than what it would cost in a sbf. These are nostalgia cars now. If you want them to keep any sort of drivability the costs associated like said are staggering. They seem at their best with a simple hci and suspension goodies.


yep yep

1. plan on getting mabe $.50 on the dollar for what you have invested if you sell
2. getting these cars to perform to what a stock muscle car of today does is often out of the budget of most guys. Getting a pushrod motor to 400+ reliable HP is easily $4-5k and then you need to address all the other components of the drivetrain- voila $10-20k.... and then you are afraid to drive it anywhere because it will get stolen/hit/breakdown etc.

I bought my current car for $5k and probably have another $6k in it, and it still has the stock brakes, 4 lug wheels, needs a better torque converter, and only makes about 350ish crank hp. I could easily drop another $3-5k ( vortech, 5 lug disc conversion, wheels,) but wondering if it's worth it at this point.
 
I would recommend the 5 lug swap to anyone. It's honestly something I would do to a bone stock car. I realise that wheel choices now aren't as limited ad they were even 10 years ago but the added stopping power and rim selection makes it worth it.