(I think) Timing chain issue... might explain dyno/starting/timing issues..

Steve S · May 4, 2009

Hi there,

I had a problem with a balancer i bought a while back, the numbers on it were in the correct position for timing chain cover with the pointer on the passangers side but mine is on the drivers side. I had a reading similar to yours to get the motor to run close to good, stamped new numbers on it and started again.

Steve

SadbutTrue · May 4, 2009

Steve S said:
Hi there,

I had a problem with a balancer i bought a while back, the numbers on it were in the correct position for timing chain cover with the pointer on the passangers side but mine is on the drivers side. I had a reading similar to yours to get the motor to run close to good, stamped new numbers on it and started again.

Steve

Before you put the new #'s on, was your timing pointer pointing to 0 at TDC? My balancer has 3 sets of #'s, one of which matches up to my pointer at TDC. I would think this wouldn't be a problem if your pointer lines up with 0 but I guess theoretically just lining up at 0 doesn't mean they're right all around.

Capt Dan said:
It could if you were not hooking up your timing light to the #1 spark plug wire.

I am 100% sure I'm hooking up the light to the #1 wire (well, to the #1 spark plug, after working through some logic it'd probably be the #3 terminal on the distributor). Does that kill the theory automatically?

Say I connect the #1 spark plug wire (w/ light) to where the #3 terminal is (next one up, since 351w firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8).

A spark would go to the #3 terminal and then to the #1 plug (and light) about 45 degrees early (1/8 a turn). While the distributor thinks you're firing the #3 50-55* BTDC early you're really just firing the #1 plug at about 5-10* BTDC. Hence why it runs decently at initial timing numbers that don't make sense.

Any flaws with this logic? Seems like its worth a shot...

jcode68 · May 4, 2009

Others will have to verify, but I think you are using the wrong firing order for the cam you are using. The correct firing order (based on threads i have read) I believe should be 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. Does the cam card list the firing order to use? You are using the XE274H cam, correct?

fordmach70 · May 4, 2009

timing

I have to ask are you going clockwise or counter-clockwise with the plug wires around the dist?

SadbutTrue · May 5, 2009

jcode68 said:
Others will have to verify, but I think you are using the wrong firing order for the cam you are using. The correct firing order (based on threads i have read) I believe should be 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. Does the cam card list the firing order to use? You are using the XE274H cam, correct?

Pretty sure thats the 302 firing order, not the 351w. 351w and 5.0 HO are what i wrote, what you wrote is the old school 302/289 firing order.

fordmach... going CCW (unless my memory is even worse than I think it is...)

edit: got it all back together last night but the battery is dead, so it'll have to wait til today when we can charge it to mess with the spark plug wires

65ShelbyClone · May 5, 2009

Yes, 1-5-4 is the old 221/260/289/302 firing order and 1-3-7 is for the 351W/5.0HO. Comp's XE274H has a different part number for each, I would guess because of the firing order. Which part number is your cam?

jcode68 · May 5, 2009

I think the 2 different part numbers reflect hydraulic roller and hydraulic flat tappet. I based on the part# in his sig, I believe he is using the flat tappet. Jegs has the firing order posted for this cam:

35-246-3 - Comp Cams 'Xtreme Energy' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts Details

Ford/Mercury 351ci/5.8L ''Windsor'' 1969-95 & 302ci/5.0L H.O. 1982-95
*Note: Firing Order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

So it looks like he is using the correct firing order, just need to make sure it is in fact wired properly going counter clockwise. I have a feeling the root cause for this problem is very simple and will surprise all of us when found. Let's hope it's soon!

SadbutTrue · May 5, 2009

jcode68 said:
I have a feeling the root cause for this problem is very simple and will surprise all of us when found. Let's hope it's soon![/COLOR][/SIZE]

Me too...

woodsnake · May 5, 2009

I'm thinking more and more a fuel related issue.....

However, I'm hooked on this thread, and have followed it from the beginning.

I too, and am looking forward to the final resolution...

65ShelbyClone · May 6, 2009

jcode68 said:
I think the 2 different part numbers reflect hydraulic roller and hydraulic flat tappet. I based on the part# in his sig, I believe he is using the flat tappet. Jegs has the firing order posted for this cam:

Comp doesn't list an XE274H roller cam.

I didn't know Jegs provided the firing order, but I checked the 35-246-3(351W) against the 31-246-3(smallblock) and they do indeed have different firing orders.

SadbutTrue · May 6, 2009

I have the 35-246-3.

We moved the spark plug wires over one (CCW) and then wrestled with it for about 2 hours, didn't make a whole lot of difference (other than a huge hassle trying to find where it ran again). We had to restab the distributor about 30 times... and when it finally ran (idled... really, really rough), the initial timing was... shock... 50 degrees or so

Guess I try reversing those wires within the distributor next...

Swapping a 500 edelbrock on friday just to see if that helps.

Rusty67 · May 6, 2009

What happened to that 600 double pumper I loaned you ?

SadbutTrue · May 6, 2009

Rusty67 said:
What happened to that 600 double pumper I loaned you ?

In my back seat still. I think we decided if we're going to throw on a random carb we'll use an edelbrock because we've had more luck getting them to plug-and-go.

Rusty67 · May 6, 2009

That 600 carb is dialed in perty good. It should fire right up and hold an idle really well.

jcode68 · May 6, 2009

Did you ever verify that the avance isn't locked out on your distributor? What stop bushing and spring combo is installed?

SadbutTrue · May 6, 2009

jcode68 said:
Did you ever verify that the avance isn't locked out on your distributor? What stop bushing and spring combo is installed?

I think we still have the stock/standard bushing & spring combo for now... wanted to get it timed before messing with that since right now its impossible to tell how much actual initial or total timing I'm running.

Have not verified the advance isn't locked out. Will do soon.

SadbutTrue · May 6, 2009

Rusty67 said:
That 600 carb is dialed in perty good. It should fire right up and hold an idle really well.

Maybe I'll just use it then, it'd be slightly less work than yanking the one off Alex's car.

SadbutTrue · May 13, 2009

Swapped carbs (both rusty's holley and my brothers edel 500), didn't make any difference. Not that it makes a difference in the meantime, but I re-jetted my carb (71 primaries, 76 secondaries, up from 65/68). Floats weren't stuck, fwiw.

Haven't checked the distributor lockout yet. Plan on calling compcams and MSD today to see what they say.

CraigMBA · May 13, 2009

By any chance do you have the vacum advance line still connected when you are setting the timing?

Rusty67 · May 14, 2009

I don't think his has the vacume advance canister.

(I think) Timing chain issue... might explain dyno/starting/timing issues..

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