if you were to choose...

would you go with bbk tuned length shorties or ford racing shorties ? which one would provide more power i realize that long tubes would be a considerable amount more,but im staying firm on going with shorties. also how well does the chrome finish hold up on these is it worth it to get the ceramic coating or the hts coating? :flag: thanks dudes
 
Ceramic coating is well worth the money.

As for which one? Well they will both perform very similar, fit and finsih will be more important.

However, there really is very little gain in getting shorties, they offer almost nothing over stock manifolds interms of performance. Unless you are going to be revving the motor to very high rpms (beyond what a stock internal mod motor can handle)

At the end of the day it's your choice, but considering the price and hassel of fitting shorties IMO it's not worth it. The only real gain you'll probably see is in throttle response.

Header Basics by Loren Barnes, President, S&S Headers, Inc.

You have probably heard words like: back pressure, scavenging, tuned length, merged collector, rotational firing order, compatible combination and many others that meant something, but how they relate to a header may be a little vague. This article should give you a basic understanding of how a header works, what the terminology means, and how it plays a part in the header's performance gains.

The first misconception that needs to be cleared up is that a header relieves backpressure, but a certain amount of backpressure is needed for optimum performance. Just the opposite is true. A good header not only relieves the backpressure, but goes one step further and creates a vacuum in the system. When the next cylinder's exhaust valve opens, the vacuum in the system pulls the exhaust out of the cylinder. This is what the term "Scavenging" means.

The first consideration is the proper tube diameter. Many people think "Bigger is Better", but this is not the case. The smallest diameter that will flow enough air to handle the engine's c.c. at your desired Red Line R.P.M. should be used. This small diameter will generate the velocity (air speed) needed to "Scavenge" at low R.P.M.s. If too small a diameter is used the engine will pull hard at low R.P.M.s but at some point in the higher R.P.M.s the tube will not be able to flow as much air as the engine is pumping out, and the engine will "sign off" early, not reaching its potential peak R.P.M. This situation would require going one size larger in tube diameter.

The second consideration is the proper tube length. The length directly controls the power band in the R.P.M. range. Longer tube lengths pull the torque down to a lower R.P.M. range. Shorter tubes move the power band up into a higher R.P.M. range. Engines that Red Line at 10,000 R.P.M. would need short tube lengths about 26" long. Engines that are torquers and Red Line at 5,500 R.P.M.s would need a tube length of 36". This is what is meant by the term "Tuned Length". The tube length is tuned to make the engine operate at a desired R.P.M. range.

The third consideration is the collector outlet diameter and extension length. This is where major differences occur between four cylinder engines and V-8 engines. The optimum situation is the four cylinder because of it's firing cycle. Every 180 degree of crankshaft rotation there is one exhaust pulse entering the collector. This is ideal timing because, as one pulse exits the collector, the next exhaust valve is opening and the vacuum created in the system pulls the exhaust from the cylinder. In this ideal 180 degree cycling the collector outlet diameter only needs to be 20% larger than the primary tube diameter. (Example: 1 3/4" primary tubes need a 2" collector outlet diameter.) The rule of thumb here is two tube sizes. This keeps the velocity fast to increase scavenging, especially at lower R.P.M.s. Going to a larger outlet diameter will hurt the midrange and low R.P.M. torque.

The amount of straight in the collector extension can move the engines torque up or down in the R.P.M. range. Longer extension length will pull the torque down into the midrange.

Engines that "Red Line" at 10,000 R.P.M. would only need 2" of straight between the collector and the megaphone. This is just enough length to straighten out the air flow before it enters the megaphone. This creates an orifice action that enhances exhaust velocity.

In the case of V-8 firing order, the five pulses fire alternately back and forth from left to right collector, giving the ideal 180 degree firing cycle. Then it fires two in succession into the left collector, then two in succession into the right collector. If the proper collector outlet diameter is being used (two sizes larger than primaries) the two pulses in succession load up the collector with more air than it can flow. This results in a very strong midrange torque, but causes the engine to "sign off" early, not reaching its potential peek R.P.M. The improper firing order on a V-8 engine results in the need to use large diameter collectors so the engine will perform well at high R.P.M.s. Unfortunately the large diameter collectors cause a tremendous drop in air velocity, resulting in less scavenging through the entire R.P.M. range.

Often cams are used with extended valve timing to help the exhaust cycling. This results in valve timing overlap (Intake and Exhaust valves both open at T.D.C.) which causes a "Reversion"cycle in the exhaust. When this happens, exhaust actually backs up into the cylinder causing intake air to be pushed back out the intake. This reversion causes "Standoff" (fuel blowing out of the Intake) at low R.P.M.s. This whole improper cycling has resulted in a number of "Cure Alls" to help stop this reversion and standoff.

The plentum intake was created to stop the fuel "Standoff". Then came "Anti Reversionary" Cones in the exhaust tubes, and stepped tube diameter in the header, extended collector lengths and even plentums in the exhaust tubes.

In this chain of events beginning with improper firing order, a series of cures has developed, each one causing a new problem.

The optimum cure to this whole problem is to correct the exhaust firing cycle. The two cylinders that fire in succession into each collector have to be separated. This can be done partially by a "Tri-Y" header, where the four primary tubes from each bank merge into two secondary tubes (separating the two pulses firing in succession) and finally collect into a single collector. This type of header helps, but the two pulses are still coming back together at the collector.

The second optimum cure is to cross the two center tubes from each bank, across the engine running them into the collector on the opposite side. This makes the firing cycle in each collector 180 degrees apart, the same as a four cylinder engine. Once this firing order is achieved, the small collector outlet diameter can be used and the "High Velocity Scavenging" at low R.P.M.s cures the reversion problems and eliminates the need for extreme cam duration.

This sounds so easy, you are probably asking why wasn't this done from the start?

If you have ever seen a set of 180 degree headers you would understand.

On today's cars, with space virtually nonexistent, crossing four tubes either under the oil pan or around the front or rear of the engine presents major problems. On racing applications where it is possible, there is still the problem of keeping the tube length down to a reasonable 32" long. If that's not enough challenge, then try to arrange the tubes into each collector so they fire in a "Rotational Firing" pattern. Then you have, what has been called "A Bundle of Snakes".

Arranging the tubes to fire rotationally adds to the scavenging capabilities. The exhaust gas exiting one tube, passing across the opening of the tube directly beside it, creates more suction on that tube than it would on a tube on the opposite side of the collector.

The next problem is "Turbulence" in the collector. When four round tubes are grouped together in a square pattern, so a collector can be attached, you notice a gapping hole in the center of the four tubes. The standard method in manufacturing headers is to cap this hole off with a square plate. This plate in the center of the four tubes creates dead air space, or turbulence, disrupting the high velocity in the collector. This problem is solved by using a "Merge Collector". This collector is formed from four tubes, cut at approximately an 8 degree angle on two sides. When the tubes are all fitted together they form a collector with a "Pyramid" in the center. This has eliminated the need for the square plate and has taken up some of the volume inside the collector, speeding up the air velocity.

Other methods of curing this problem are: fabricating a pyramid out of sheet metal and welding it over the hole between the tubes, or squaring the tubes on two sides so they fit together forming a "+" weld in the center eliminating the hole all together.

You can see that there are a great many factors that go into making a good header. When the header, intake system, and cam timing are all designed to operate to their maximum in the same R.P.M. range, then you have a "Compatible Combination". This combination can be tuned to deliver maximum power at any desired R.P.M. range.

These are some of the "Basics" you need to know about building a good high performance header. There are many other adjustments that can be made to fine tune a header, but this should give you a basic understanding of how all the components work together.
 
While they may not provide alot of peak HP they do appear from others dyno graphs to provide an increase across the board. From what I've gather on various sites the shorties are usually worth 5hp across the board and LT are usually 15 across the board. I haven't seen much difference in brands of shorties. Although just from looking at them the BBK's seem like they "should" make more power. If they are what you want I'd go with which ever is the better deal. I did. :)
 
300bhp/ton said:
Just curious, what basis do you reckon the BBK's "should" be better?
the reason I used " " is because they should however I haven't seen any data to back that up. The reasoning been the fact that the runners are closer to the same length which in theory will provide a better exhaust flow as I'm sure you know.
Now unlike others on here and other sites I don't get up on my soapbox about the parts I own, or the car I own either. I don't have a single BBK product on this car and really don't plan on any either.
 
BooWFO said:
the reason I used " " is because they should however I haven't seen any data to back that up. The reasoning been the fact that the runners are closer to the same length which in theory will provide a better exhaust flow as I'm sure you know.
From what I've read it seem primary pipe lenght is actually not that important on most V8's.

David Vizard said:
Headers — Primary Pipe Lengths

Misconceptions concerning exhaust pipe lengths are widespread. Take for instance the much-overworked phrase “equal-length headers.” More than the odd engine builder/racer, or two, have made a big deal about headers with the primary pipes uniform within 0.5 inch. The first point this raises is whether or not what was needed was known within 0.5 inch! If not, the system could have all the pipes equally wrong within 0.5 inch! Trying to build a race header for a two-planed crank V-8 with lengths to such precision is close to a waste of valuable time. Under ideal conditions it is entirely practical for an exhaust system to scavenge at or near maximum intensity over a 4,000 rpm bandwidth. Most race engines use an rpm bandwidth of 3,000 or less rpm. If the primary pipe scavenging effect overlaps by 3,000 rpm then it matters little that one pipe tunes as much as 1,000 rpm different to another. Since this is the case, then all other things being equal, pipe lengths varying by as much as 9 inches have little effect on performance. A positive power-increasing attribute of differing primary lengths is that it allows larger-radius, higher-flowing bends and more convenient pipe routing to the collector in often confined engine bays.

Apart from the reasons just mentioned, there is also another sound reason why we should not unduly concern ourselves about equal primary lengths. In practice, the two-plane cranks that typically equip V-8 race engines render the exhaust insensitive to quite substantial primary length changes. Experience indicates inline four-cylinder engines are more sensitive to primary pipe length, but a two-plane cranked V-8 is not two inline fours lumped together. It is two V-4s and, as such, does not have even exhaust pulses along each bank. With a conventional, as opposed to a 180-degree header, exhaust pulses are spaced 90, 180, 270, 180, 90 and so on. The two cylinders discharging only 90 degrees apart are seen, by the collector, as one larger cylinder and accounts for the typical rumble a V-8 is known for. This means the primaries act like they do on a four-cylinder engine, but the collector acts as if it were on a 3-cylinder engine having different sized cylinders turning at less revs. (Doesn't life get complicated?) This, plus the varied spacing between the pulses appears to be the cause of the system’s reduced sensitivity to primary length.

These uneven firing pulses on each bank seem to work in our favor. Evidence to date suggests that single-plane cranked V-8s, which have the same exhaust discharge pattern as an in-line four-cylinder engine, make less horsepower and are more length sensitive. Dyno tests with headers having primary lengths adjustable in three-inch increments show that lengths between 24 and 36 inches have only a minor effect on the power curve of V-8s that you and I can typically afford, although the longer pipes do marginally favor the low end.
 
300bhp/ton said:
From what I've read it seem primary pipe length is actually not that important on most V8's.
Yeah whatever. not getting in an argument with you.
Hence why I put down better times in my fox with equal length shorties than regular shorties, or why FL headers are better than shorties. Yes I know the thermal dynamics that come into play along with the scavenging effects for the longer primary tube allows the exhaust pulses to flow and gather. But I don't believe any of those things come into play with the original posters question. As to which is better the FRPP shorties or BBK tuned length headers.
 
300bhp/ton said:
At the end of the day it's your choice, but considering the price and hassel of fitting shorties IMO it's not worth it. The only real gain you'll probably see is in throttle response.


i was always under the impression that shorties were an easy swap, thats why they appealed to me more then the long tubes, if this is the case maybe i should rethink this.
 
mexis97gt said:
i was always under the impression that shorties were an easy swap, thats why they appealed to me more then the long tubes, if this is the case maybe i should rethink this.
Well LT's are perhaphs a little more work, but not really a great deal as you still have to take all the same stuff off.

The only way I look at it is, if you get shorties now and a few more mods down the line. You will always whish you wnet for LT's. But of course to then get LT's will cost you more because of the fact you have already bought and fitted shorties.

Like I said, it's really your decision on what you do, we can but advise when asked. But I tend to agree with MRVAX, if you don't want to comit to LT's then maybe use the money on a different mod which will represent better value for money performance wise over shorty headers.
 
thanks for the great info guys, i just dont wanna regret spending money on a set a of headers that im not gonna be happy with in a few months. i think im gonna do me some research on a set of long tubes. im just trying to figure out what im gonna do before spring

would y'all suggest pick 2.. 1. pi intake
2. xcal 2 tuner
3. headers
 
Kilgore Trout said:
According to the FRPP catalog FRPP shorties are the "finest short header you can buy" :nice:
:lol: Then I'm going to order NOW! Kidding aside, I've thought about shorties for a while, and it really isn't worth the money on an NA 2v unless you are pushing Stage 2/3 cams MAYBE.

The BBK's lose power down low according to numbers I saw in MM&FF Mag.

Save up for some VT Stage 1's.. Its only 300 bucks more than shorties, and they produce gains almost all across the board.

Wade
 
I've had FRPP shorties on 2 of my cars.. NA 97 GT and this S/C 96 GT.. IMO they are NOT worth the hassle. Granted it only took me about 3 1/2 hours to put them on (using a lift). But i would suggest saving up and getting either a set of Long tubes or a set of PI cams and a PI intake.