Indecision Time Again

[CarMichael Angelo]

I called Summit a few weeks ago to check into the possibility of doing this, and they said that it was no problem, so the actual part swapping part of this dilemma isn't an issue. What I'm trying to decide on are the pros/cons of going one way or the other.
Now typically, when I post one of these I get hardly any advice from the collective, and this one may be the same. Given that I'm talking about intercooling vs not intercooling, I at least hope those that have a S/C-T/C will at least chime in....

Anybody who has looked in on my build thread knows that I have this elaborate, rear mounted heat exchanger w/ a 3 gal water reservoir, and a Bosch recirc pump running water to a front mounted A2W I/c mounted under the driver side front fender.
I'm running an inline F/I mallory pump that will feed pump premium through a -6 line, feeding (6) 60 lb EV-1 injectors, then return it back through a -6 return.

I'm concerned that that was not a wise choice, considering I want to drive the snot outta this car.
An A2W I/C in a closed loop system like mine will start to heat soak. Whatever the fans on those rear mount radiators are capable of cooling the water to will be the average temp of the recirculated water. That will be at least ambient, more than likely well north of that after I heat that water up when I put my foot in the throttle and boost starts coming online.
This being a weenie six banger, in order to make the targeted HP/TQ (which is low when compared to V/8 numbers) 400/500 RWHP/TQ, I'm gonna have to make alot of boost comparably speaking......like 16-18 P.S.I.
Air compressed to 18 P.S.I is hot, and the I/C may not be able to relieve that much of the heat once the water temp starts to rise in the closed loop. The heat exchangers get their air from "gills" that are molded into the quarter panels infront of the tires. One of these gills is done, the other, still needing to be built.

A2A is not an option. There is ABSOLUTELY no room in front of the radiator, or beneath the bumper to acommodate one of those big assed things.
All of the above junk is sitting on my "on the one hand" side of my brain.

The other side wants a more conservative, less complex route.

Run E-85, dump all of the rear radiator, water reservoir, front A2W I/C junk, and seal up the Gills on the one side w/ a piece of sheet metal.

E 85 isn't everywhere down here, but it's convenient enough especially w/ the intended purpose of this car to get to.
The benefit to E 85 is that it's high octane, and runs very cool. That'll be of huge benefit across the board as I'm sure that the cooling effect on the engine will not only control I.A.T's, but also the actual coolant temps as well.
The cons are that right now, it's way more expensive than premium and depending on where I drive, I have to be acutely aware of where I have to go to get the tank refilled. The engine requires more fuel when it's drinking E 85, and that means that gas mileage will also suffer, so I'll be stopping more often as well.
Bottom line: It'll cost more to drive it.

As a precursor to all of this, the pump I have isn't capable of moving E85, so I gotta buy a new one. Additionally, I gotta increase the delivery line size up from -6, to -8. I don't know about the return line size requirement as of yet.
Summit will let me return the pump for exchange (even though there is no box......can you imagine being a vendor for these guys?) and I will have to buy the line and fittings to run a -8 feed. Even w/ the return/exchange,..it'll probably be about a 250.00 additional bump, but I may be able to sell the I/C, the rear water reservoir, and the Bosch pump to mitigate that, since none of it has had a drop of water ran through it as of yet in the grand scheme of things, it'll probably be an even trade.

So there you have it.
Keep the complex A2W system and run gasoline.
or dump it, and run E 85.

 

[Noobz347]

To hell with E85.

I can partially visualize what you're describing as your air-to-water system and I can't really imagine you putting this together without an effective way of cooling the heat exchanger.

As I sit in my arm-chair, yeah... I would have gone air-to-air for street car all day and every day.

So long as your heat exchanger system is getting lots of air flow when the car is at relatively low speed, then I think you're good to go. If you describe to scrap this system, there's still no way that I'd go E85. I'd be looking at other options:

Going air to air
water/meth
relocating air to water heat exchanger if air flow is a concern - this I would put in front of a 3 core rad.

I still like the gills

I might have a different opinion if you'd said, "There's 3 e85 stations within 5 miles" or "I just inherited an ethanol plant and am moving to Iowa".

 

[hoopty5.0]

Meth.

 

[A5literMan]

Meth.

Now now you know not to mention this to the "Walter White" look a like but I agree that's a way to go. I would go e85 but I live in Illinois(same as Iowa I guess). I do have a few stations around for easy access. Out of those 3 options I'd still probably choose e85(with the a2a option off the board). I also would keep the gills because just as a design cue I think is badass.

 

[RangerJoe]

If you lose the gills, i'm out. My thoughts back when you first did the rear mount was concerning all the heat being brought in the car, but anyways.

I am two hours east of you, and e85 is few and far between. But, considering e85, can you not do both? Keep it the way it is and do e85?

Joe

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Meth.

To hell with E85.

I can partially visualize what you're describing as your air-to-water system and I can't really imagine you putting this together without an effective way of cooling the heat exchanger.

Here, completely visualize it:

I/C

Water lines (-12)

hoses under..

through,

water is pushed by this thing...

sucked through this thing..

which runs through these things, w/ air drawn through them by the two black things, and vented through the floor..

which pull air through this part..

that's reduced by this thing....

that's attached by two of these things..

that sucks air through this thing.

As I sit in my arm-chair, yeah... I would have gone air-to-air for street car all day and every day.
relocating air to water heat exchanger if air flow is a concern - this I would put in front of a 3 core rad.

Like I said.....

No room in front,

and no room underneath.

I still like the gills. Gills?

I might have a different opinion if you'd said, "There's 3 e85 stations within 5 miles" or "I just inherited an ethanol plant and am moving to Iowa".

There are 5 within 7.5 miles here actually.

Now now you know not to mention this to the "Walter White" look a like but I agree that's a way to go. I would go e85 but I live in Illinois(same as Iowa I guess). I do have a few stations around for easy access. Out of those 3 options I'd still probably choose e85(with the a2a option off the board). I also would keep the gills because just as a design cue I think is badass.

Gills?

If you lose the gills, i'm out. My thoughts back when you first did the rear mount was concerning all the heat being brought in the car, but anyways.
I am two hours east of you, and e85 is few and far between. But, considering e85, can you not do both? Keep it the way it is and do e85?

Joe

Everybody lives on a budget, for most it's money. For me, now that the majority of the parts are bought. Now the the budget here is what to sacrifice to be able of driving the thing at all in 2015.

I love the Gills too, but that other side constitutes another week of work.....

I guess I'm just trying to find a shortcut.

 

[95BlueStallion]

Nose to the grind stone. Short cuts now, lead to head aches later. That being said, and with no boost experience, I am a firm believer in the simpler a thing can be the less that can/will go wrong with it.

P.S. Keep the gills, that design makes the car yours.

 

[madspeed]

hmmmm, how about get cutting and fabbing right on that front bumper. I can see the front gills already

 

[madspeed]

or what about something mounted like the newer 911's??

 

[RangerJoe]

Everybody lives on a budget, for most it's money. For me, now that the majority of the parts are bought. Now the the budget here is what to sacrifice to be able of driving the thing at all in 2015.

I love the Gills too, but that other side constitutes another week of work.....

I guess I'm just trying to find a shortcut.

Mike, I don't know if you are like me, but I tend to impose deadlines on my projects and usually end up rushing through or cutting sometype of corner and then wish I had done it differently. Sometimes it is money restraints and sometimes it is time restraints, but I always wish I had spent more of it after I am done. The car is going to be cool. I hate to see it take two or three more years, but I would rather that happen then you finish the car and hate it.

Joe

 

[Boosted92LX]

Meth if not a2a. Just say no to E85. I'm a huge fan of a2a, but then again I seriously modified my bumper to work with the enormous a2a cooler. I think it's worth looking into to get rid of those annoying refills... I went boost to do away with nitrous refills. . Why replace it with another p.i.t.a.?

 

[jrichker]

@madmike1157

If you are going to have Air Conditioning, there is a simple answer: put another evaporator coil in the water tank and let the AC cool you and your intercooler water. With a good working AC, the temp of the gas in evaporator will get down around 32-40 degrees F. Figure about a 20-30 degree transfer loss and you end up with 60-70 degree water which is better that you would get anywhere else.

A 12 volt normally open solenoid valve in the high pressure refrigerant feed for the cabin evaporator coil will shut down the cabin evaporator when the heat is turned on in the cabin. It will let you keep the intercooler cold and allow you to enjoy the heat in the winter.

 

[jetmech807]

@madmike1157

If you are going to have Air Conditioning, there is a simple answer: put another evaporator coil in the water tank and let the AC cool you and your intercooler water. With a good working AC, the temp of the gas in evaporator will get down around 32-40 degrees F. Figure about a 20-30 degree transfer loss and you end up with 60-70 degree water which is better that you would get anywhere else.

A 12 volt normally open solenoid valve in the high pressure refrigerant feed for the cabin evaporator coil will shut down the cabin evaporator when the heat is turned on in the cabin. It will let you keep the intercooler cold and allow you to enjoy the heat in the winter.

There is a company that makes something very similar to this. Check out "Killer Chiller".

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Gee, Thanks guys.....Just what I was hoping for.....advice.

I spoke w/ AEM electronics yesterday, and they didn't recommend using a water meth system as a stand alone replacement for an intercooler, and advised me to use one of their systems as an augmentation to what I have to ensure the heat soak is kept in check.
Snow cooler wouldn't return my call.

The guy at AEM did ask a pretty obvious question though.......
" How do you know that your system will not do the job as is"?

Uhhh,.....I don't.

"I don't know about you, but I'd recommend you try it first before you go trying to modify what you have, not even knowing if it wont work."

Good advice.

Mike, I don't know if you are like me, but I tend to impose deadlines on my projects and usually end up rushing through or cutting sometype of corner and then wish I had done it differently. Sometimes it is money restraints and sometimes it is time restraints, but I always wish I had spent more of it after I am done. The car is going to be cool. I hate to see it take two or three more years, but I would rather that happen then you finish the car and hate it.

Joe

I agree Joe. The longer something sits w/ me,....the more I second guess myself. I don't know if you looked, but as I was stacking all of those pictures of the entire system for @Noobz347 , I said to myself "You're stupid, the damn thing is done save for the corner you're trying to cut, and it's the last corner."

The E 85 thing makes sense to me though, and if I were to use it, I wouldn't need all of that junk, and gain the benefits that come w/ that fuel. I looked into where E 85 stations are around me, and beleive me there are plenty w/i 10 miles of this house that would make using it on a car like this acceptable.

But.......

I wanna drive the car to SEMA in November. (whether that's this year or the next), it's a bucket list thing for me.......Alone 2300 miles, one way in the desert SW, driving parts of RT66 to see the remaining tourist trap things like the biggest ball of twine, stand on the Four corners, and to return the thing back to the Gila river and maybe see a real Gila Monster. ( What a great photo op,...a 4 legged Gila next to the 4 wheeled Gila.)

When you do a E85 search for that region of the US you get nothing...........for about 250 miles. Real "Last Chance Texaco" kinda stuff. If I converted to E 85, I'd have to either do one of two things to be able to make that drive.

1. Build two different tunes, so if I was faced w/ no E85 availability, I'd just drain and switch. ( then do my damnest to keep the thing out of boost while having to drive through the beginnings of the Rocky Mountains)
2. Carry two 5 gallon jugs w/ me at all times so the thing would make the stretch between Albuquerque, and Phoenix w/o stranding me in between. ( I don't want the wife to have to identify my bleached white skeleton laying next to the car when I ran out of gas, then out of water.)

@madmike1157

If you are going to have Air Conditioning, there is a simple answer: put another evaporator coil in the water tank and let the AC cool you and your intercooler water. With a good working AC, the temp of the gas in evaporator will get down around 32-40 degrees F. Figure about a 20-30 degree transfer loss and you end up with 60-70 degree water which is better that you would get anywhere else.

A 12 volt normally open solenoid valve in the high pressure refrigerant feed for the cabin evaporator coil will shut down the cabin evaporator when the heat is turned on in the cabin. It will let you keep the intercooler cold and allow you to enjoy the heat in the winter.

And again, the reply that gets the cookie. If I did have heat soak problems this would be the way to fix it. I do have A/C, and it is a universal type from Vintage air. Putting that into place if I need it would be what I'd most likely do, because if I could chill the water below ambient, no A2A would be better. I don't know if I need to worry about the solenoid though, I don't see me standing on the throttle when the heat is on. ( Unless I move to Iowa, and buy a S197 so I can throw it into a curb) If it's so cold that I need the heat on, the ambient air that gets sucked into the gills will do a good enough job of cooling the water during those times.

It does ADD another item to the completion plate though......and the whole point of this was to try and lose some of that.

I guess things'll change for me if I force myself to complete the other Gila Gill. Once that's done, I don't really have a b itch. If I heat soak, I'll direct A/C refrigerant into a second little evap that I'll submerge into the water tank. (If I have HS issues)

Thanks for all the replies and Ideas gentlemen,...that was what I needed.

 

[jrichker]

There is a company that makes something very similar to this. Check out "Killer Chiller".

Very interesting. My idea was somewhat more primitive - stick an evaporator coil in the intercooler coolant tank.

Maybe a more direct approach of putting the evaporator coil directly in the intake air charge flow path after the turbo. That would result in the best possible temperature drop for the intake air charge. The main concern with this would be if the intake air charge temperature is so hot that it raises the refrigerant temp so much that the return refrigerant pressure is above test limit for the compressor.

 

[HotFox]

You said 7 stations? Go to each one and buy E85 send to lab and see how consists the E actually is. After the lab test you may rethink E85 or carry a hydrometer around and 4 different tunes.

 

[95BlueStallion]

If you moved to Iowa, not only could you buy an S197 to throw into curbs, but we could cruise to the Field of Dreams. Not sure what anyone could find more exciting in life.

 

[7991LXnSHO]

I have run a flex fuel vehicle, the OEM version of your multiple times. I also live in part of the corn/wheat belt. Our van ran smoother, started fine, and ran with just as much power on E85. But it of course had worse mileage. When I figured cost per mile, even when gasoline was stupidly high, it always cost more per mile to support local industry and farmers. Not a lot more per mile, but they adjusted the price of E85 in accordance with gas's cost, not ethanol's cost. I know insiders who state it made them more money. So except for a couple of times a year, I usually ran E10. Now if I needed race fuel, the premium was pretty small for the octane boost.

I do not know why A2A is not an option, but the double water coolers sound like the way with AC back up if it is too much. After all, the motor is one big experiment anyway. Be brave and finish it up as per plan.