Just got dyno'd....blew a HG

[OrangeMustangGt]

Whell, i went up to get my car dynotuned today and i blew a HG on the dyno.
It was at 11:1 A/f and 6lbs of boost it let go. it started knocking badly.....DAMN.....I even had fresh 9333-pt1 headgaskets, and ARP studs

The tuner thinks that it has to do with me putting back in the stock cam which doesnt have as much overlap, and mainly my heads....the gt40p's have very small thin decks, and small combustion chambers, plus made of cast iorn.

Right now, money wise im done .....SO, is there any cheaper alternative or do i have to save up and throw down for some twisted wedge, afr's, or edlebrocks?

I have alot in these gt40p's.....trickflow valve spring kit, Rebuild and ped mount roller rockers, which now i will have buy some stud mounts!!(unless there is a head out that can use ped mount rr's and is turbo friendly, thick deck and aluminum)

Im just venting a bit....this really sucks. Ive been working on this thing day and night for months for this to happen....and the 4th time in a row without any decent driving time at all......Damn the gt40ps.

I guess my question is: What heads should i get that are good for a turbo?
Also is there any good head that can use my existing pushrods and rockers?

Just trying to get some cash togther....I was gonna use this money for a new tranny, but damn....not now!

 

[Guero]

man i feel you, i really dont know what to.

 

[yellow1995Cobra]

Ive been there brotha. How long have you had the injectors? When i had all my HG issues it ended up being the used injectors i had. 4 were not flowing correctly.

Anyways, if your looking for new heads you cant go wrong with trickflows. You can get them used for 1000 and less, usually freshened up. I got a set of ported TW's with new seals/springs for 1050 shipped. They are ped mount BTW, i wanted stud but these were a great deal.

Were you down at DEZ's? I dont see why the cam would have anything to do with it. Considering HOW MANY people use it with great sucess, some with stock heads.

Also, the 9333pt1 gasket, if i recall correctly, is made to be used with an alum head. There is another version of that HG that is used for iron/iron applications. Im not saying this is why u poped a HG but next time get the other HG. Do a search on the corral for the correct #... Good luck buddy and keep me posted!

 

[HGFireHazard]

I thought on boost applications most tuners aim for right around 12 for A/F? I don't know if 11/1 is necessarily dangerous but I would have thought they would have been a little more conscious and tried to richen that up a bit? It always bothers me when people say stuff like this happens on the dyno.

EDIT: Don't listen to me, thanks for the correction

 

[yellow1995Cobra]

I thought on boost applications most tuners aim for right around 12 for A/F? I don't know if 11/1 is necessarily dangerous but I would have thought they would have been a little more conscious and tried to richen that up a bit? It always bothers me when people say stuff like this happens on the dyno.

It works the other way.. 11 is richer then 12.....

 

[HGFireHazard]

Sorry, retarted moment. I've been dyslexic all day long today. When I was eating cereal in bed this morning I said "the call is wold" (the wall is cold)

 

[moneypit94]

I thought on boost applications most tuners aim for right around 12 for A/F? I don't know if 11/1 is necessarily dangerous but I would have thought they would have been a little more conscious and tried to richen that up a bit? It always bothers me when people say stuff like this happens on the dyno.

EDIT: Don't listen to me, thanks for the correction

It depends on the turner. AFM trys to go for 11.5:1. The lower the safer. The only thing you have to watch out for is eventual carbon build up like i had, which never did effect my setup.

If i was u i would either go o-ring or just get some cometic gaskets. Cometic would be me first recommendation and make sure your heads and block are true.

I personally o-ringed my last setup and had absolutly no problems after that. Now on my new setup with the larger bore i opted to go with cometic gaskets.

Depending on what compression ratio your running if you had problems at only 5psi then you better check out all the basics like injectors.

I personally would blame it on the headgaskets. Those headgaskets aren't designed to have that much pressure on them. Your going to have people say oh, thats a savety measure... Well that safety measure is just to weak in my opinion especially when you start upping the boost.

 

[yellow1995Cobra]

It depends on the turner. AFM trys to go for 11.5:1. The lower the safer. The only thing you have to watch out for is eventual carbon build up like i had, which never did effect my setup.

If i was u i would either go o-ring or just get some cometic gaskets. Cometic would be me first recommendation and make sure your heads and block are true.

I personally o-ringed my last setup and had absolutly no problems after that. Now on my new setup with the larger bore i started to go with cometic gaskets.

Depending on what compression ratio your running if you had problems at only 5psi then you better check out all the basics like injectors.

I personally would blame it on the headgaskets. Those headgaskets aren't designed to have that much pressure on them.

Theres TONS of guys on the corral and tm.com using the 9333 pt's with high boost with sucess. So i beg to differ. Of course most have alum heads on them......

 

[tkelley]

I thought on boost applications most tuners aim for right around 12 for A/F? I don't know if 11/1 is necessarily dangerous but I would have thought they would have been a little more conscious and tried to richen that up a bit? It always bothers me when people say stuff like this happens on the dyno.

11:1 is richer if I'm not Misaken.

I have alot in these gt40p's.....trickflow valve spring kit, Rebuild and ped mount roller rockers, which now i will have buy some stud mounts!!(unless there is a head out that can use ped mount rr's and is turbo friendly, thick deck and aluminum)

Might want to check these out. I'm not sure what valves you have in your GT-40P's if theyre stock, or worked up, but you can get these aluminium castings for less than $500, and you should be able to dump your ped mounts on ebay...or I might be interested in them http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PRO-ALUMINUM-FORD-HEADS-210cc-302-347-351-408-427-TMD_W0QQitemZ8068654476QQcategoryZ33617QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You can get them complete for less than $900 shipped. I'd think they would work good with a turbo setup. Its my understanding that on anything with forced induction you should be more concerned with the sheer volume of flow especially on the exhaust side than anything else.

Just a thought, who knows, maybe someone has some horror stories on these heads

T

 

[moneypit94]

Theres TONS of guys on the corral and tm.com using the 9333 pt's with high boost with sucess. So i beg to differ. Of course most have alum heads on them......

well PERSONAL experience says otherwise. I went a couple weeks on those junk gaskets, and then finally spent the money and had them o-ringed and went 2 years without a problem before selling the motor. And i pushed that motor pretty damn hard. 9.69:1 on premium and almost 12 psi. (good enough to touch 10's)

Now if you want to put your hope on a perfect tune, (which your not going to get right off the bat most of the time) then be my guest and fight with those demons. I bet you will find a much much larger percentage of blown cheap headgaskets then you will find people melting pistons or any of that with o-ring or cometic especialy if you get it dyno tuned.

And Jesse I personally believe you would have been able to figure out your injector problem on your old turbo setup by checking the spark plugs after a good tune and seeing a problem. Your motor would have surely held out for that with some GOOD gaskets.

 

[speedytang]

What was the total timing at when the HG went .At 6psi and 11:1A/F then it must have been really high timing and with those heads your probably at what 10.5-1 compression and at 6psi your max total timing with 93 octane would only be 17 degrees total timing to survive at 6psi.

 

[Green 94 5.0]

can you post the dyno graph where you blew the gasket? at 11:1 you should have been fine. after 4 headgasket problems in a row at a safe a/f i would start looking at the deck surface on the block and the heads to make sure they are straight. as far as o-ringing the heads, i wouldnt. the headgasket is there for a reason. i would think it is better to have the gasket be the weak link than a piston. the o-ring will hold the gasket together but that is just going to cause the failure to happen at the next weakest part in the system after the headgasket.

 

[moneypit94]

When i talk about o-ring i am really talking about having a groove machined in the heads and running felpro loc-wire gaskets.

The other and true methode of o-ring is having a copper or stainless steal rings put into the block or the heads and using gaskets of their choice. Usually the cheapy's.

And the comment about lots of people having success with cheap gaskets is true, but you will find that most of the people who had problems like myself, that finally decided to switch now have no problems at all.

You get people convertered over to going o-ring or cometic but you rarely if ever have people convert back. Do a search on TM about o-ring and you will see countless people telling about how they have no problems now.

 

[OrangeMustangGt]

ok guys, i think that i may just buy the t/w's that are machined for the loc-wire gaskets....i have all new injectors, and my base timing was 10 deg, and he had it turned wayy down with the chip....it still pinged.....We think it is the gt40p heads and the stock cam.....the heads seemed to be ok before with my crane 2031, but that has alot of overlap and was probably venting alot of boost.....the car made more power with the stock cam.

 

[blksn955.o]

Do you have the egr removed and turned off in the eec???

If the tuner just has it un-done and does not have the egr tables turned off at mid load it will see like 40+* of timing. That would pop a HG preaty quick under boost and its mid load so you will be seeing boost not like at idle.

Something sounds realy funky...I mean your only running 6psi on prob. less than 10:1 comp.

I would try cometic first before loc wires, just for the fact once you go loc wire you always have to run them unless you get the tar milled out of the heads.

 

[rio95]

Do you have the egr removed and turned off in the eec???

If the tuner just has it un-done and does not have the egr tables turned off at mid load it will see like 40+* of timing. That would pop a HG preaty quick under boost and its mid load so you will be seeing boost not like at idle.

Something sounds realy funky...I mean your only running 6psi on prob. less than 10:1 comp.

I would try cometic first before loc wires, just for the fact once you go loc wire you always have to run them unless you get the tar milled out of the heads.

I think you are on to something.

Either you are not putting your head gaskets in good enough or you have too much timing or your gt40p's are shaved. A gt40p should put you around a 9.5:1 stock.

I personally think it was probably too much timing.

I have to same heads as you, with the same gaskets, but with a trickflow stage 1 cam and I have been running 16 psi with no problems. I have even gone up to 18 on accident. This is all on 91-93 octane. It is all in the tune! I am only running 16 degrees of total timing, which is extremely low, but I really don't want to mess with it to tell you the truth. By the way, I only have 7/16 arp bolts.

 

[OrangeMustangGt]

Whell i went out and checked the timing, it was set at 8deg with the spout out.

The timing should have been ok, and i was thinking that maby i had blown the hg before driving it up, BUT none the less, it was pinging on the dyno badly at around 5k.

Now, before with the same heads and the crane 2031 cam, we were able to actually add timing to get more power, and the car NEVER detonated.....this was with my remote setup at 5lbs.....stock 55k headgaskets and stock studs.....it held for months untill my MAF died. could it have been just the crane 2031 cam that was saving my ass? Should i put it back in?

SOOO.....this got me to thinking, and as i remember, when i was installing my fuel rails i remember smelling OLD gas......I think the station i bought it from had old gas....that would make the car ping like crazy right? All ive ever put in is premium......BUT the same tank of gas has been in there all winter, and i got gas from a junk station recently. Also, my heads were shaved .030 ( i think) after i blew the hg the first time.

Never the less....I think that i want to put better heads on because i dont want to deal with this again, unless i can be sure it wont blow again soo soon with the p heads......What heads can i get that have ped mount rockers, thick deck, loc-wire gaskets, and bigish combustion chambers?

 

[OrangeMustangGt]

ok....maby i dident blow the gaskets(possibly just wishful thinking?)....they may have just lifted(is this possible?), as i was able to drive for about an hour and a half back from the tuner down the highway with no problems at all. I just went out and checked, and there was no more coolant loss, and the overflow tank was back down to normal level, i let it run for 10 mins. and it was holding coolant pressure when i cracked the cap.

This was my latest setup for anyone who is trying to help:

Stock cam with 1.7 rr's. Gt40p heads, unported, with trickflow valve spring kit....slightly shaved after i blew my last set of gaskets(due to a bad tune),...they were only a tiny bit out of flat, BUT the heads were pressure tested and everything so i assume there good still.

I used 9333-pt1 gaskets with copper spray. Also 7/16 arp studs step torqued to 95 ft-lbs.

The tuner left me with a good tune tho, i mean i cant be sure because it was pinging on the dyno, but now its a safe tune to at least make it up there again when i fix my problems.

Man, would i love to be able to save the money for a tranny....oh would i....my tuner really thinks that its all the heads though, he says the gt40's are notorious for this.....And i DO trust him, as he has one of the fastest drag mustangs in his class, and all he does is work on mustangs lol....however i dident even think it may have been bad gas........Is there a way to test bad gas?

Im rambling a bit here, But i'm left with only 2 options that i can see:

Go the road traveled and replace the gaskets again (4x in 5 months..AHHH!!) but use better gaskets and put my crane cam back in.
probably end up costing me $200 total...but i really hate to do headgaskets....again and again.

Or Go the high road and get some heads, and leave the stock cam in there.
Probably end up costing $1,500(which i really dont have), but maby it will stay togther?

 

[S/CBlack95GT]

If your total timing was under 20 then you have a problem somewhere else. Do you have a BTM on the car or are you retarding the timing with a chip? The next thing to check would be how the gaskets were installed. Make sure the block and heads are super, super clean. Use just regular Fel-Pro graphite gaskets with nothing else.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Arent u supposed to retighten the headbolts after u get the engine hot the first time? Did u do that?