KB blower

2000 4.6 · May 25, 2005

jasonh_86 said:
well.. i have compared prices for the KB and the procharger.. for the procharger kit i was looking at, which came complete w/everything needed including a chip, injectors, and an intercooler it was around $3400.. and the KB 1.7L kit, w/all the stuff was around $4900.. that's my problem.. i do not want to spend $4900 ALONE on the supercharger unless it's gonna make my car so much faster than any other blower out there w/JUST the blower.. that's why i'm leaning towards Procharger..

Hey Jason! I really don't think you can go wrong with either. I am sure you will love which ever one you choose. I was in the same boat as you about 6 months ago. I couldn't decide between Procharger, Paxton Novi 2000 or the KB. After researching it for a long time, I went with the KB. That's just me though.

On the pricing...keep in mind that the procharger chip is horrible (from what I've heard). So you need to factor in a chip, dyno time and a custom tune. Also, the instructions to install the procharger are horrible (from what I've heard) so you might have to factor in installation costs as well.

Also, do a search here and on other forums. I had always heard about prochargers blowing their seals and Procharger having really bad customer service. That is one of the reasons I did not go with them.

jasonh_86 · May 25, 2005

alright.. thanks for the info, but whichever blower i get i'll be taking to a shop to get installed b/c i really dont want to attempt to do it myself because i may end up messing something up.. i do have a buddy that works at a ford dealership, he's their head mechanic and another buddy who builds mustang drag cars, so i may ask them if they could.. but i just want to run as much hp as possible w/out having to get forged internals, altho i do plan on getting a set of custom built heads and cams..

2000 4.6 · May 25, 2005

jasonh_86 said:
alright.. thanks for the info, but whichever blower i get i'll be taking to a shop to get installed b/c i really dont want to attempt to do it myself because i may end up messing something up.. i do have a buddy that works at a ford dealership, he's their head mechanic and another buddy who builds mustang drag cars, so i may ask them if they could.. but i just want to run as much hp as possible w/out having to get forged internals, altho i do plan on getting a set of custom built heads and cams..

Hey, I had very limited automotive installation experience when I installed my KB. The instructions are that good that anyone with the right tools can do it. I promise!! Especially if you have some friends that are Ford mechanics. You could seriously knock it out in a day or two. Every little step is very detailed and evan has a picture.

Good luck with your decision and let us know what you end up doing! Enjoy the power!

Gearbanger 101 · May 25, 2005

2000 4.6 said:
PS. The twin screw does not mellow out. You are so wrong. See my dyno graph (http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?p=239286#post239286) and tell me where my twin screw mellows out. "Please do us all a favor and don't ever speak again unless you know what you are talking about. "

Come on! How about I have dyno proof to back up my claim, what evidence do you have?

No need to be rude dude. Just take a look at your own dyno chart. It's all the proof I need to illustrate my point. The KB torque figures hit hardest at about 3600rpm to the tune of 420ish lbs ft/tq on all runs and falls off to a hair above 350lbs ft by redline. This is also about where that strait line horsepower curve starts to deviate as well. A similarly tuned Centi kit won't pull as hard down low, but will pull higher and harder as RPM climbs with the curve getting steeper not more shallow. It's not a poke at the KB, it's just the nature of the blower. I wasn't insinuating that KB's wouldn't pull to red line, I only stated that they didn't pull to red line as hard or as high (rpm wise)as a centi in comparison.

02GTKB said:
Gearbanger they talking about you

Actually, it was only 2000 4.6 that did the talking, but thank you for keeping tabs regardless. I knew I could count on you.

2000 4.6 · May 25, 2005

I see what you are trying to say but I hardly call that "mellowing out". Anyone have a dyno chart of a centri for comparison?

Jason...good luck with your decision!

ADRENLN · May 25, 2005

yea a centri dyno chatr would be nice for to compair.

00s281sc368 · May 26, 2005

Here is one 01 GT with vortech SQ and 3.3" pulley which should give him way over 10psi...

00s281sc368 · May 26, 2005

To support 2000_4.6 and confirm what he says, here is my dyno in comparaison.
That's at 9psi on 91 pump gas and no other mod that the saleen borla cat back.
Note that power is still climbing at 6000rpm...

tjm73 · May 26, 2005

I was just comaping those two graphs and I noticed 2 interesting things.

1.) I noticed that the Vortech car's hp started to "laydown" at about 5500. BY that I mean it's upward growth started to level off.

2.) The Vortech car never made it to 350 ft/lbs of torque. The Whipplecharged Saleen STARTED at 350 ft/lbs climbed to over 400 and never dropped below 350 again. Plus hp just kept steadily climbing and climbing, never surging or falling off right up to redline.

A rough average of those two graphs shows the Vortech with about 311 ft/lbs between 2500 and 6000 rpm and 254 hp between 2500 and 6000 rpm.

Over that same rpm range, the Whipplecharged car made average numbers of about 398 ft/lbs and 315 hp.

When you look at the graphs for those two examples and the peak and average power numbers, it's pretty evident which is the better car.

Peak numbers mean exactly ZILCH. You have to look at the "area under the curve" or in other words the big picture.

2000 4.6 · May 26, 2005

00s281sc368 said:
To support 2000_4.6 and confirm what he says, here is my dyno in comparaison.
That's at 9psi on 91 pump gas and no other mod that the saleen borla cat back.
Note that power is still climbing at 6000rpm...

Man, our dyno's look almost identical. Great numbers!! Isn't it amazing that KB is so good at what they do that they can create identical looking results with an "off the shelf" chip without even touching the car.

2000 4.6 · May 26, 2005

tjm73 said:
I was just comaping those two graphs and I noticed 2 interesting things.

1.) I noticed that the Vortech car's hp started to "laydown" at about 5500. BY that I mean it's upward growth started to level off.

2.) The Vortech car never made it to 350 ft/lbs of torque. The Whipplecharged Saleen STARTED at 350 ft/lbs climbed to over 400 and never dropped below 350 again. Plus hp just kept steadily climbing and climbing, never surging or falling off right up to redline.

That is very interesting!! FYI...the Saleen (00s281sc368) is a Kenne Bell 1.7L....not a whipple.

jstreet0204 · May 26, 2005

00s281sc368 said:
Note that power is still climbing at 6000rpm...

While those are awsome numbers, you can't really say it is still climbing at 6000. If you get rid of the blip at the end caused by letting off the gas or hitting the rev limiter, it has pretty much flattened off even though it is leaning out.

300bhp/ton · May 26, 2005

2000 4.6, FYI - you are correct although a Whipple is a KB and vice versa, as both companies don't actually manufacure the blowers, they are supplied by a Scandanavian company Opcon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

tjm73 said:
I was just comaping those two graphs and I noticed 2 interesting things.

1.) I noticed that the Vortech car's hp started to "laydown" at about 5500. BY that I mean it's upward growth started to level off.

2.) The Vortech car never made it to 350 ft/lbs of torque. The Whipplecharged Saleen STARTED at 350 ft/lbs climbed to over 400 and never dropped below 350 again. Plus hp just kept steadily climbing and climbing, never surging or falling off right up to redline.

A rough average of those two graphs shows the Vortech with about 311 ft/lbs between 2500 and 6000 rpm and 254 hp between 2500 and 6000 rpm.

Over that same rpm range, the Whipplecharged car made average numbers of about 398 ft/lbs and 315 hp.

When you look at the graphs for those two examples and the peak and average power numbers, it's pretty evident which is the better car.

Peak numbers mean exactly ZILCH. You have to look at the "area under the curve" or in other words the big picture.

truer words have never been said. With ya 100% there .

tjm73 · May 26, 2005

300bhp/ton said:
2000 4.6, FYI - you are correct although a Whipple is a KB and vice versa, as both companies don't actually manufacure the blowers, they are supplied by a Scandanavian company Opcon.

But they do seem to have their own individual cases that house the twin screws. They are visually different. Why that is I don't know.

I did assume that the Saleen of question has an original Saleen blower, which I believe they get from Whipple. Either way, WOW!! I wish my 98 GT had a Kenne Bell.

What I'm most impressed by is the statement that the Saleen is makignthose numbers with a Saleen Borla Exhuast and 92 octane gas. THAT'S IT!?!?!?

2000 4.6 · May 26, 2005

300bhp/ton said:
2000 4.6, FYI - you are correct although a Whipple is a KB and vice versa, as both companies don't actually manufacure the blowers, they are supplied by a Scandanavian company Opcon.

Yeah, but that would be like calling a Ford a Chevy just because they are both cars. Whipple and KB are competing companies.

02LaserRed2V · May 26, 2005

My auto rarely sees over 4k rpm on the street. It has longer gearing and revs slower than a 5-speed. I'd imagine if I had a centri, I'd hardly see much boost anyway. That's why I gone with KB.

So that shows the tranny your car has also plays a big role in what might be best for you.

tjm73 · May 26, 2005

02LaserRed2V said:
My auto rarely sees over 4k rpm on the street. It has longer gearing and revs slower than a 5-speed. I'd imagine if I had a centri, I'd hardly see much boost anyway. That's why I gone with KB.

Kinda off topic, but you will LOVE the KB with an auto. A firend of mine had a KB on a 93 Lightening (E4OD auto). It was SICK.

300bhp/ton · May 26, 2005

2000 4.6 said:
Yeah, but that would be like calling a Ford a Chevy just because they are both cars. Whipple and KB are competing companies.

Almost but its a bit more closly linked.

KC@KB said:
OPCON/AUTOROTOR, the Swedish manufacturer of superchargers for Kenne Bell, has purchased Lysholm / SRM, another Swedish twin screw manufacturer.

Lysholm supplies superchargers to Whipple Industries in the U.S. This is not a merger, as rumored by some, but simply one company buying out another. We have taken the liberty of posting the Press Release taken directly from OPCON's own website:

Pressrelease 1/15/2004

Opcon completes strategic acquisitions

Opcon AB has acquired Svenska Rotor Maskiner AB (SRM) and Lysholm Technologies AB (LT).

The purchase price is 1,450,000 newly issued shares in Opcon AB and SEK 5 million in cash. There is also an additional purchase price that depends on the financial results for the past year. Opcon took possession on 31 December 2003. The companies had sales of around SEK 65 million and reported an operating profit of around SEK 5 million in 2002. Increased sales and profits are expected for 2003.

”With this acquisition we have secured important strategic resources that will influence Opcon’s short-term and long-term profitability and development,” comments Sven G. Oskarsson, CEO of Opcon.

SRM has invented, developed and licensed screw compressors and now has over 70 active patents and 35 licence holders such as Carrier, Trane, Mitsubishi and York using the product for various industrial applications.

SRM had sales turnover of SEK 46 million in 2002 and made an operating profit of SEK 2.4 million. Similar results are forecast for 2003. The company recently received a large design assignment that will be followed by a production order. The design order is worth SEK 10 million.

Opcon’s strategic aim with the purchase is, among other things, to safeguard intellectual property rights and globally advanced competence for the continued development and manufacturing of complete air systems for fuel cells and combustion engines. Opcon Autorotor AB (OA), a subsidiary of Opcon AB, is involved in several important development projects within the fuel cell sector. These projects rely partly on private financing and partly (50%) on financing from the Swedish Energy Authority and the EU’s Sixth Framework Agreement.

Opcon’s customers in the fuel cell sector are currently reorganising their purchasing structures ahead of series production. Opcon’s continuing involvement in the fuel cell sector depends on being able to offer customers a complete air system comprising frequency converter, electric motor, compressor and heat exchanger. Opcon has developed, or is in the process of developing, all the products necessary for an air system in order to provide an optimum package.

Lysholm Technologies AB (LT) is a sister company of SRM. LT had sales turnover in 2002 of SEK 20.7 million and an operating profit of SEK 2.5 million. The company forecasts that it will double sales turnover and operating profit in 2003.

LT competes with the Opcon subsidiary, Opcon Autorotor, primarily on the US aftersales market for compressors used in combustion engines. The acquisition will give Opcon considerable synergies in product development, marketing and manufacturing. Future rationalisation of the product ranges of both companies will also generate cost savings.

Both Opcon Autorotor and Lysholm Technologies have started series production of compressors for both fuel cells and combustion engines. The acquisition gives Opcon an immediate increase in advanced capacity in order to complete these projects. LT will commence commercial deliveries of compressors to OEM customers in January 2004. The volume of this business is expected to reach SEK 15 million in 2004. LT has also signed an agreement with a German company concerning sales of compressors on the European aftermarket. The value of this order is in the range of SEK 20-30 million. This will give the companies further opportunity to rationalise manufacturing and purchasing.

Another Opcon subsidiary, Laminova (LA), holds a patent for its heat exchanger and the acquisition of LT will also provide an opportunity to use this heat exchanger as an intercooler in screw compressor applications for fuel cell and combustion engines in the auto sector.

Both SRM , LT and OA are based in Nacka, LA in Sollentuna outside Stockholm.

………………………………………………………………………………………………

For further information, please contact:

Sven G. Oskarsson, CEO, Opcon AB,

tel +46 532 611 30, mobile +46 70 625 81 21.

Göran Falkenström, CFO and deputy CEO of Opcon,

tel +46 532 611 22, mobile +46 70 330 05 02.

website: www.opconab.com

2000 4.6 · May 26, 2005

300bhp/ton said:
Almost but its a bit more closly linked.

Yes, I have seen that press release before. But I will tell you what...email Ken back and ask him if it would be ok to call a KB a whipplecharger and see what he says.

68 & 00 GT · May 26, 2005

a problem I have with the lower torque power provided by the KB is traction. Unless you run a lot of suspension mods, and some serious tires I don't see how you can use the lower torque anyway. My centri on the other hand builds more gradually giving me a better chance of hooking up in first gear. If I raced a KB car with similar power to my car he would only have an advantage in first gear from 1,500 RPM to ~2,500 RPM. Now who launches at that low of an rpm anyway ? No one. After first gear at WOT my rpm's never fall low enough that I'm not getting plenty of boost to haul balls. Your decision also should depend on where you plan to go with the car in the future. The 1.7 KB does have it's power limits. I say this b/c you mentioned getting head work, and cams. Not a P1SC but most any other popular centri blower will surpass what a 1.7 KB is capable of. See the results for yourself below, and not one 1.7 KB listed - oh b/c they are 2.2's

all info taken directly from here - and this is all about the most recent data and best work out there.
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63

Vortech JT trim 670 RWHP / 570 RWTQ (2V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18245

Novi 2000 660 RWHP / 570 RWTQ (auto 2V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16685

Vortech little ole S-trim 626 RWHP / 560 RWTQ (2V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18244

Whipple 602 RWHP / 569 RWTQ (4V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17253

KB 2.2 (not a 1.7) 605 RWHP / 551 RWTQ (4V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11771

Novi 2000 619rwhp/563rwtq (2V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9773

KB 2.2 (not a 1.7) 598 RWHP / 547 RWTQ (2V)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9695

Novi 2000 648 RWHP / 519 RWTQ (same car as above different poweradder)
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9697

KB 2.2 (not a 1.7)w/ NOS 660 RWHP / 698 RWTQ (2V)
w/o NOS 615 RWHP / 570 RWTQ
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9676

all the above cars have built / forged internal motors too, other than the Whippled 4V it didn't say so I'm not sure on that one. So there are no excuses on any of them unless they were limited by something else as to their full potential such as fuel supply. As far as which one is fastest - it's hard to compare b/c some are street cars, and some are full / all out race cars. This was only meant to compare some peak RWHP / RWTQ numbers on different blowers.

Now I'm not saying which blower is best for you b/c if you're happy with spending more money, and having less power capability go ahead and get the 1.7 KB. Honestly your plans for the car, and your driving habits a 1.7 may be the best thing for you. However - all the centri guys like myself know how to downshift though, and I still don't have any problems boiling my tires at my currently low power level all the way through second if I really wanted to, and I have 125K miles on my engine. I even put my 327's back in to help with traction already (and to get a lower highway rpm due to no overdrive ratio 5th gear in my TKO trans). I plan to join the 600-700 RWHP guys as soon as comp grinds my blower cams, by getting a built engine, and a smaller blower pulley - good luck wirth your decision, they are all fun as hell I'm sure - just depends on which one is right for YOU not what every 1.7 KB owner thinks he he. Sorry had to vent I'm tired of all the KB nut huggers putting the plenty capable centri blowers on the back shelf.

Also centri blowers are equally as easy to install. I did mine the fuel system, and intercooler in about 10 hours over a 3 day weekend by myself just taking my time, and I had never even seen it done before, and the instructions were not that great.

last thing 2V > 4V

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