Kenne Bell on the 5.0??

[Foxfan88]

i ran a vortech on my car pushing 12-13 psi and it made KILLER power on the top end but the low and midrange wasnt really much better than N/A ( a tad bit since it builds a few PSI in the mid range.) i found myself wanting more mid range grunt.

ive never ran a KB on a pushrod motor, but i know they work awesome on the modular motors.

for a pure street car i think the KB will be a little more fun. the vortechs and other centrifugal blowers are more effiecient under boost but dont do all that much down lower. where the KB should come in full boost shortly off idle and should have a fat torque curve to have fun with.

but if all possible get a turbo, best of both worlds. you get the awesome torque down lower and get the good top end and efficiency of a centrifugal compressor (like vortechs)

i ditched my vortech in favor of a single turbo kit. a friend of mine just recently got finished with a single t70 setup on a BONE STOCK 95 gt. with just 9 psi with the turbo the power difference is insane, the gobs of torque you gain in the midrange is great.

 

[MY 85 GT]

i ran a vortech on my car pushing 12-13 psi and it made KILLER power on the top end but the low and midrange wasnt really much better than N/A ( a tad bit since it builds a few PSI in the mid range.) i found myself wanting more mid range grunt.

ive never ran a KB on a pushrod motor, but i know they work awesome on the modular motors.

for a pure street car i think the KB will be a little more fun. the vortechs and other centrifugal blowers are more effiecient under boost but dont do all that much down lower. where the KB should come in full boost shortly off idle and should have a fat torque curve to have fun with.

but if all possible get a turbo, best of both worlds. you get the awesome torque down lower and get the good top end and efficiency of a centrifugal compressor (like vortechs)

i ditched my vortech in favor of a single turbo kit. a friend of mine just recently got finished with a single t70 setup on a BONE STOCK 95 gt. with just 9 psi with the turbo the power difference is insane, the gobs of torque you gain in the midrange is great.

What turbo kit you going with?...I think that is the way to go...I heard that a supercharger you have to really rev the motor more to get the power out of it...Thats why i like the turbo the power should come in lower which i think is less strain on the motor no?

 

[Gearbanger 101]

so lets just get a little poll going...

Kenne Bell or Vortech on the 5.0 with the mods listed above??

Ask and ye shall receive.....poll added.

My vote goes to the Kenne Bell. Making horsepower is nice, but nothing is more satisfying (to me) than making stump pulling, tire shredding torque right off idle. Speaking from personal experience as a person who's ridden in Centrifugally charged Mustangs on the street and who is an owner of one with a Positive Displacement blower, it makes the car much more fun to drive all around.

I'm not saying PD blowers are the best, but nobody ever pays attention to my car until I break the tires loose at 70km/hr and start sliding the rear end around right beside them. At 4,200lbs with driver, thats not something I could have accomplished with a run of the mill centrifugal.

 

[martyd]

add a single turbo setup to the poll and then I can vote

 

[hemmerk]

OK, I just do not know which way I want to go. I mean if I am going to spend the money I would rather get what best suites me. This is a mustang that I will drive quite a bit, no track time, just gett'n on it on the road...I have some questions and issues with all three possibilities....


KB- I would have to get rid of my TrickFlow intake, but would blowing head gaskets be a big issue?? Installation difficulty?(1-5 scale, 5 being hardest)

Vortech V3- Like that I would be able to keep the Trickflow, but I am just going to be driving on the street, not the track...difficulty of installation(1-5)

Turbo?? What would be the best turbo for it?? difficulty of Installation?? any other worries??

I would also like to spend around no more than $3500...

Thanks for your input let me know what you think....

 

[Gearbanger 101]

The Kenne Bell will be the easiest to install. You won't need to worry about head gaskets with any of the blowers assuming your stock short block is in decent shape.

The centrifugal will most likely make more power on the dyno, but with its softer bottom end, its not going to feel nearly as quick on the street. It will be the cheapest of the three systems most likely, but in comparison to the Kenne Bell, not by a lot.

A turbo set up will net you the highest power gains (no question), but it will also be the most difficult to install and the least torque friendly down low. I'm not a huge fan of turbo systems on the street. The power band is short and violent and even though peek torque figures are higher, low end torque even with a smaller sized turbo is still not as crisp, or controllable as it is with a PD blower. Sure the power rush is fun, but part throttle and low speed driving can get annoying with turbo cars, since in order to really build consistent boost, you need to have your foot into it hard.

Nothing beats a PD blower on a street car. And by beats I don't mean "in a race", I mean the over all sensation and drivability. It literally simulates the power band of a big block under the hood. Strong, linear torque from start to finish with no dips, or lag in the power band at any point. Horsepower will drop off quicker on the top end with the Kenne Bell than it will with the Vortech or the Turbo (since discharge temps are higher with the Twin Screw and an aftercooler isn't an option), but at the same time it won't feel like you're hitting a wall as many would make it seem. Your car will still make great power all the way to red line.

I've driven all types and if seamless, natural power delivery is what you're after, the Kenne Bell in this instance is your best bet.

 

[martyd]

I'm sorry but I dont agree with your point of view on a properly selected turbo system. A properly designed and tuned turbo system will give the widest tq curve of all 3 choices. Part throttle on a good turbo car is unreal compared to anything else. The tq curve will not be as lenier or natural as a N/A engine sure but neither will that of the K/B. Your talking 260 to 290wtq for a kb from 1500rpm to 2000rpm vs 220ish from 1500rpm to 350+wtq at around 2700 or so rpm of a turbo system in general terms. IMO turbo's are the best of both worlds, they will with proper selection give near the low end tq of a kb and pumble any race bred blower on top end hp. Also with the hybrid turbo's and use of ball berring wheels in them it is very easy to attain the down low tq and high end hp in one package.

STi's, BMW's, and many other cars make 300 or 300+ft lbs of tq from 1800 to 2000rpm all the way to 5000+rpm with the use of a turbo. Hell I once owned a 91 Probe GT Turbo that made 190wtq as early as 2300rpm. And these are all smaller engines that will not spool a turbo as fast as a 4.6 or 5.0 liter V8. Installation will be harder and tuning is a absolute must by a experienced tuner but having the ability to adjust the system to your wants and needs no matter what trump the install.

All is IMO, not trying to say you dont know what your talking about. Just offering a different perspective.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I've driven both an STi and a Probe GT and although them may be able to make the torque down low, you've still got to manipulate the turbo in order for the to do so. Its not as easy as just punch and go. I found the drivability with both those cars horrible by comparison to anything I've driven with a PD blower. Yes, you can make torque with them down low, but unless you want to load them up on a low speed roll all the time, the lag is brutal. Don't ever get caught in the wrong gear, or your moms Taurus is going to beat you to the finish line.

I've heard many state how "streetable" turbo cars can be with proper sizing and selection, but I've never yet seen one that was truly without lag. Even a small amount of lag is too much for me, because when it finally does come on it hits like a hammer and its nothing but tire spin. At least the torque with a PD car is predictable and controllable.

I’m not saying turbo set ups can’t be made acceptably street able, I just feel that a PD set up is more so.

 

[hemmerk]

I really do not feel like I want to go the Turbo direction. I have gone back and forth so much but I think that the KB will best suite the needs of my stang. Has anyone ever installed a KB?? Details about it?? What needs to be changed like head gaskets or anything?? I have a gt40 lower so I think I am going to get the Flowzilla kit...hopefully not too hard to install...

 

[2000xp8]

I wouldn't buy either setup based on install difficulty.
Neither require you dig into the longblock.
So whether you spend 8 hours putting one on or 10 hours, in the end it really doesn't matter.

Only reason i mentioned the headgaskets is because all the guys i knew that had KB's drove the cars hard, and blew many HG's.
Changing the HG is certainly not a requirement.

 

[MY 85 GT]

Im on the fence here to...about KB..Vortech or a Turbo...I have had turbo cars..supercharged cars and Nitrous cars...I dont want to have to go 5000 rpms to feel power like i hear guys saying they have to with a Vortech or paxton...KB is nice but very exspensive..If im going to go that much money i think I'll go turbo...For one you can buy a complete kit with an intercooler for under $4k..That kit is the Hellion..im sure there are cheaper kits out there...Nitrous is the cheapest bang for you buck thats for sure...I dont plan on racing my GT every weekend one because its a convertible and i need a 6 point roll bar with a harness just to go faster then 13.4 here in NJ...so for me any one of them really is a great way to go...I was really thinking of the KB, but after reading ...researching...ive found it to be a hassle on tuning like i said in one of my posts...Maybe its just what i heard........I will do more reseaching since its winter time none of this is going to get done til spring anyways...

 

[martyd]

I've driven both an STi and a Probe GT and although them may be able to make the torque down low, you've still got to manipulate the turbo in order for the to do so. Its not as easy as just punch and go. I found the drivability with both those cars horrible by comparison to anything I've driven with a PD blower. Yes, you can make torque with them down low, but unless you want to load them up on a low speed roll all the time, the lag is brutal. Don't ever get caught in the wrong gear, or your moms Taurus is going to beat you to the finish line.

I've heard many state how "streetable" turbo cars can be with proper sizing and selection, but I've never yet seen one that was truly without lag. Even a small amount of lag is too much for me, because when it finally does come on it hits like a hammer and its nothing but tire spin. At least the torque with a PD car is predictable and controllable.

I’m not saying turbo set ups can’t be made acceptably street able, I just feel that a PD set up is more so.

I could post a vid of a couple cars that have the nastiest response you have ever seen from any car and they do it from turbo's

 

[MY 85 GT]

I could post a vid of a couple cars that have the nastiest response you have ever seen from any car and they do it from turbo's

Please do i want a turbo realy bad LOL...Hey eaht exhaust do most guys run..mufflers i mean? any sound clips of that too?

 

[Foxfan88]

What turbo kit you going with?...I think that is the way to go...I heard that a supercharger you have to really rev the motor more to get the power out of it...Thats why i like the turbo the power should come in lower which i think is less strain on the motor no?

im going to be fabricating my own setup.
but B&G and ponydown make some killer basic setups that will split the stock block without breaking a sweat. and are affordable and arent much than a basic SC setup.

and as far as really having to rev the motor with a supercharger. with a centrifugal SC like a vortech or procharger. yes you have to tach on it hard to get max boost.

a centrifugal supercharger is pretty much identical to a turbo... except the power to turn the impellar comes from the crankshaft via a belt, meaning impellar speed is directly related to the speed of the crank. SO in order to keep from overspinning the blower the sc is geared so you have your highest boost levels, meaning your not going to get alot of boost down low or in the midrange (my 12-13 psi setup only netted me a few psi around 3000-3500, really couldnt feel it)

works killer and makes good effiecient boost for the upper rpms but the low end is softer and not much more than N/A, until you start getting up in the boost.

i guess you could pulley the blower so it would make ALOT of boost in the midrange but you would overspin it as rpms increase and ruin the SC.


the turbo compressor is pretty much the same as a centri SC, except that the exhaust turbine connected to it turns the impellar, meaning very high impellar speeds(makes boost) can be reached very quickly. your wastegate diverts exhaust gas at peak boost. the result is peak boost very early (in the 3000-3500 range usually if set up right.)

the roots or twin screw style blower make instant boost down low.
they are a pump and they displace a given amount of air per revolution. so the ratio b/w the air the SC is pumping and the amount of air the engine can ingest is going to be pretty much the same all through the rpm range and thus you get full boost pretty much off idle all the way through the rpm range. BUT the SC has quite a bit of parasitic loss and some of the power gained is use to drive the compressor itself (same with a vortech) they also produce a lot of heat which isnt good. but IMO a roots or twin screw will be more fun to drive on the street as a vortech. (depends on setup, may make so much torque it will boil tires too easy)

also to mention, take two identical cars and one with a turbo running 15 psi and other with a SC pushing 15 psi, the turbo car is going to make more power everytime, bc there isnt near as much power loss with a turbo (turbos ARE NOT free power) there is some exhaust backpressure which hinders power but compared to a SC its not much lol.

pretty much the turbo is best of both worlds. you get the fast low end boost like a roots but the efficiency of a centrigual compressor as the same time. you dont get the LOW torque quite as early as the PD blower but does one honestly need boost off idle anyways?

i do agree with gearbanger on the roots feeling like a N/A motor, with a roots its hard to tell its even a boosted motor, just feels like a big N/A motor. it is smooth and predictable but i myself like turbos, i like the sounds and rush and "airplane takeoff" feeling they give you lol.

if i had to narrow it down to two for a street car i say KB or turbo, but i myself am going with a turbo.

 

[martyd]

amuse supra with lots of torque and a mines nissan- Video

 

[MY 85 GT]

So for me i think a turbo would be better im not going to race the hell out of my car evey weekend,,,but i will go enough,Plus with the turbo the boost is there a little lower when i need it...So i was really thinking of the Hellion kit since its complete with everything needed..Like fuel pump ,injectors, I think MAF and i even heard something about a tune for it too...could be wrong about that tho...lol

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I could post a vid of a couple cars that have the nastiest response you have ever seen from any car and they do it from turbo's

amuse supra with lots of torque and a mines nissan- Video

Very cool cars indeed, but I honestly don't see how this aids your discussion in any way. I would say it hurts your point more than helps? The tach almost never got below 3,000RPM on any of the runs and when they got back on it, power didn't start coming on strong again until about 4,000RPM. Which is pretty typical of a turbo car? Hell, that R34 didn’t get below 4,000RPM at any point and red lined regularly at 9,000RPM. Can you in good faith in any way equate that to the power band of your average street driven Mustang?

You'll also note that ALL of the driving in this video was aggressive, the majority of which was spent at wide open throttle. There is no decent example of modest part throttle acceleration, or off idle sprinting mainly because it likely doesn't exist. You want boost and torque to come on fast, you gotta have the foot to the floor board and your engine within the turbo’s “sweet spot”. Its not something your average driver does in 5:00pm rush hour traffic, or during general daily driving.

For comparison sake (not like my boat could compete with the Super cars in that video head to head) when I nail it, my Eaton starts making torque literally almost right off idle. By 2,000RPM I'm putting out almost 420lbs/ft ( to a peek of 465lbs/ft). That’s only 14lbs/ft shy of what the first Supra in that video was putting out (60kg tq = 434lbs/ft) and at a full 1,000RPM less. There's a reason they didn't quote torque figures below 3,000RPM man.

At the same time, I can drive the car with as little pedal effort and I want and whether I feel like bringing it up gradually, or putting my foot through the oil pan, the power is always there on demand. No lag, not waiting, no spooling, just seamless (and completely controllable) delivery.

That’s the nature of a PD blower. Although I have seen some modern turbo cars improve low speed response a lot over what everyone was used to in the early turbo era, I have yet to see one come close in terms of drivability, controllability, or low speed torque production.

 

[MY 85 GT]

Hey Gearbanger101...I know we went thur this with me a few months Back...lol..But you make tons of sense you explain it excatly what i want to drive and how i drive My car is daily im on the parkway most of the time but alot on city too...I do not want a car i have to REV to the sky to make power...And it certainly makes sense to go with a PB blower I really like the KB maybe i read to much into when i was looking at them plus the shop i use down talked them to,maybe its because no one will give it a chance...I will but i need to know what i need to do to bolt this on my bascilly stock 93 GT vert...Will i need bigger injectors or can i use the FMU that comes with the kit...Do i need a bigger fuel pump..im sure that wont hurt...Do i need a bigger MAF...how do i tune this car i know to use colder plugs and gap them down...What do i do just set the timing back? if so doesnt he computer try to advance it..I always here them saying set the total at say 19 degrerss Locked what does that mean?...I also am going wit headers but not long tubes not this time around Im getting a set of shorties...Now i have an Off road pipe but i need to put cats on of course they will be high flow will that hurt HP?...Any help would be great thanks....

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Im on the fence here to...about KB..Vortech or a Turbo...I have had turbo cars..supercharged cars and Nitrous cars...I dont want to have to go 5000 rpms to feel power like i hear guys saying they have to with a Vortech or paxton...KB is nice but very exspensive..If im going to go that much money i think I'll go turbo...For one you can buy a complete kit with an intercooler for under $4k..That kit is the Hellion..im sure there are cheaper kits out there...Nitrous is the cheapest bang for you buck thats for sure...I dont plan on racing my GT every weekend one because its a convertible and i need a 6 point roll bar with a harness just to go faster then 13.4 here in NJ...so for me any one of them really is a great way to go...I was really thinking of the KB, but after reading ...researching...ive found it to be a hassle on tuning like i said in one of my posts...Maybe its just what i heard........I will do more reseaching since its winter time none of this is going to get done til spring anyways...

A centrifugal coming on at 5,000RPM is quite an exaggeration. Most entry level and modest performance based kits designed for street level driving start making power anywhere from 3,300RPM-3,800RPM (depending on pulley configuration). Centrifugals aren't poor set ups by any means. They can make great power and they are probably the cheapest of the bunch, they just require a lot more rear gear out back to improve torque multiplication and an understanding from the owner that low-end torque does not change at all from stock in order to appreciate them.

Turbo's will work with a heavier car as well, but in my experience you also start to see a lot more of the "peaky" power band I mentioned earlier. Because of the added weight, the lag is more pronounced and when power does finally come on, its often more abrupt because of the added drive train load. It doesn't make for a really nice DD IMO. Others my see it differently.

If anything, I would say a PD blower (like the KB) would be ideal for a heavier driven street car. You've got a couple hundred extra pounds than everyone else to get up and move and the only way you're really going to do that effectively and while still maintaining all of your street manners is probably going to be with the Kenne Bell. Like I said before, my car clocks in at a very portly 4,200lbs with driver. Based on interpreted results I've gathered from other MN12 owners running Vortech’s and Turbo set ups, it wouldn't feel anywhere near as "nimble" as it currently does, had I gone with one of the other two power adders.

If a tuner tells you that he doesn't recommend the Kenne Bell because it’s difficult to tune, turn around and walk away. He's either not as good as he may have initially led you to believe, or he's got an agenda to make more money with one of the other kits. Remember....nobody makes money on Kenne Bell kits but Kenne Bell. The price from the manufacture is as good as it gets, whether you're a dealer or some guy of the street. Centrifugals on the other hand can be customized and mixed in match into so many different configurations, that making money on them for a dealer is as simple as putting in a couple of high end components and quoting their own special brand of "custom tune".

I will but i need to know what i need to do to bolt this on my bascilly stock 93 GT vert...Will i need bigger injectors or can i use the FMU that comes with the kit...Do i need a bigger fuel pump..im sure that wont hurt...Do i need a bigger MAF...how do i tune this car i know to use colder plugs and gap them down...What do i do just set the timing back? if so doesnt he computer try to advance it..I always here them saying set the total at say 19 degrerss Locked what does that mean?...I also am going wit headers but not long tubes not this time around Im getting a set of shorties...Now i have an Off road pipe but i need to put cats on of course they will be high flow will that hurt HP?...Any help would be great thanks....

The kit will come with everything you need. As far as getting into the engine, if you're going with stock intake configuration, then mechanically its not much harder that replacing your upper intake and installing a few new accessory brackets to the front of the engine. There are no oil lines to run since the unit itself is self contained. Some vacuum line routing, minor wiring and a few odds and ends is about it. You can go with the FMU if you wish. Personally, I consider FMU's band-aids at best. Don't get me wrong, they do the job, but tuning and drivability will never be as precise with an FMU as it would with a properly sized set of Fuel injectors and a custom dyno ECU tune.

The nice thing about Kenne Bell is that they send their kits with a really detailed instruction manual written in a manor that a 5th grader could probably understand it. They're very meticulous in their instruction and I doubt it would be anything that you and a couple of your wrench head buddies couldn't accomplish over box of beer and a couple of large pizza's durring a weekend.

Any time you make enhancements to the intake and exhaust ends of the engine, you're going to improve power and drivability.....especially with a power adder car. If it were me, I'd skip the short headers and hold out for a set of long tubes. Shorties aren't designed for the most part to make power. They're built with space saving and low manufacturing cost in mine. You might improve power marginally considering how restrictive the stock manifolds are, but for the little power gains you do make, its worth it for you to hold out for a set of LT's that will improve torque and horsepower across the board and not just marginally in the upper ranges like a set of shorties will.

High flow cats probably won't affect horsepower much. With a 2 1/2" mid pipe and the fact you're still breathing through the stock heads and lower intake, you probably won't eat up more than 2-4hp.....about what a set of Shorty Headers will give you.

i like the sounds and rush and "airplane takeoff" feeling they give you lol.

Yeah, that rushing sound is certainly something you never get tired of, but PD blowers can sound pretty mean in their own right. Mine on the dyno and at the track. Sounds like an '03-'04 Cobra.

View attachment 287437 View attachment 287439

My car runs a custom Allen kit with an Eaton M90S as its main motivator BTW.

 

[MY 85 GT]

Thanks for taking time to help me out.....I do have a couple more questions please...One what wiring needs to be hooked up? Where does the vac line go for the boost gauge..lol like thats important right now... And for now could i run the FMU and say throw in some 24 pound injectors and a MAF sensor to match will it be ok until i took it to get dyno tuned...And im sure the stock pump would be ok for now with the FMU? The reason im asking this is i want to save myself money by doing the install myself and be able to save up for a good tune later on...Would i be able to say bolt this on and drive it with say the FMU and be ok?...Oh yeah how about timing? what do you do about that less intial and less total?...Thanks again I know how to set intial on the car how about total cant do that right? without a tuner?