Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

[final5-0]

Hello Fellow Gearhead Friends

I've been thinking a good bit lately about ......
What would I do differently if I started all over again

I did the NA thing with my little GT in two very different steps

My reasons were mostly cause I could relive my youth with that little car

Also ... I've built countless NA combos in my past years

My first attempts were with OEM stuff like self ported E7's
and
I bailed out fairly early as I saw the limitations early on in the endeavor

My second efforts were with the current sig combo
btw ... It now has a Ford 65mm tb & ProM 80mm meter but no dyno results

I'd guess 305 to 315 rwhp ... but ... you know what they say about
those who use their butt dyno to arrive at a value

however

It does start to pull much harder from mid range
and
It pulls harder & harder as the rpm's climb to a bit above 6K

anyway ... That is a basic idea of what all I've been able to accomplish with
my Wrenches and a Tweecer

So ... I got to say to myself
With my application staying the same which is ......

1) Weekend toy only
2) All creature comforts in place
3) All emissions equipment in place, working, and pass annual Texas testing
AND ... Most Important Of All
4) Its gotta drive around town and bahave like a little stocker Stang

I sure have a hard time not looking at using a KB or Vortech as a focus
to build a nice street car combo around

Hey ... I'm like everybody else ... All I want is a little more HP

Honestly ... I'm not looking for block splitting rwhp

You can be quite conservative in every area with such a combo and still
be at or around 400rwhp

Well ... I've laid it out there

I entertain your thoughts and opinions

I'll be watchin & waitin for some good stuff from all of you opcorn:

Grady

 

[stangboy]

I'd say go 331 or 347, upgrade to AFR 185s, get Ed Curtis to grind you a new cam, and maybe go with an Eddy RPM II intake. Oh and upgrade your tranny cause the stock T5 won't hold up when you get good traction. If you still wanna go a lil faster after all that just get a 150 shot of nitrous. Thats what I'd do.

 

[final5-0]

I'd say go 331 or 347, upgrade to AFR 185s, get Ed Curtis to grind you a new cam, and maybe go with an Eddy RPM II intake. Oh and upgrade your tranny cause the stock T5 won't hold up when you get good traction. If you still wanna go a lil faster after all that just get a 150 shot of nitrous. Thats what I'd do.

Yes ... Such a combo would be awesome

But I would point out a couple of things here

1) Around 450 rwhp is OEM block splitting territory
2) Having said that ... My goal is 400 rwhp give of take a few

That keeps the OEM block in the big picture ... Don't ya see

See ... Here is the deal about my reasoning as I see it

This is a STREET CAR ... Just a Weekend Toy mostly :Word:

Sure ... It might fly down the 1320 a time or two but rarely

I mean ... Why do I need additional cubes to obtain said goal

I'm all about the most gain for the least buck spent

Yes ... The t-5 is not up to the task of much abuse

Grady

 

[KamiKaziDK]

Why not keep what you have and try to find a powerdyne 6lb supercharger? I'd imagine it'd put you at about 4 to 425, there's no supercharger wine, so that's nice, plus no tapping oil lines

 

[The O.G.]

those kb's are a bit pricey,even if used..
then you gotta change your manofold ,then the heat is a bit of a turnoff ..
the meth option is there but one more thing to deal with
but the low and midrange power
sitting on top of the motor nice and neat

vortechs are more abundant for sure..
you have a nice tourqe curve already it doesnt seem like you will miss much ..
they seem a bit more of a pain to work around once installed..
i dont know your old lady but mine does not like the sound of the centris she heard
head units are plentiful
i was quoted $2699 for a new v3 iirc..

these are the things i debate in my head anyway

 

[final5-0]

Why not keep what you have and try to find a powerdyne 6lb supercharger? I'd imagine it'd put you at about 4 to 425, there's no supercharger wine, so that's nice, plus no tapping oil lines

Yes Dave ... I agree you most likely could get it done with this method

I've seen so many hosed up Powerdyne sc's in the past

I just couldn't bring myself to the point of ever trying one

Grady

 

[KamiKaziDK]

It's the belts that always go south in them, right? Or is the the blower itself? I noticed they stopped making mustang blowers a while ago and never really thought about them again until I saw your post

 

[final5-0]

those kb's are a bit pricey,even if used..
then you gotta change your manofold ,then the heat is a bit of a turnoff ..
the meth option is there but one more thing to deal with
but the low and midrange power
sitting on top of the motor nice and neat

vortechs are more abundant for sure..
you have a nice tourqe curve already it doesnt seem like you will miss much ..
they seem a bit more of a pain to work around once installed..
i dont know your old lady but mine does not like the sound of the centris she heard
head units are plentiful
i was quoted $2699 for a new v3 iirc..

these are the things i debate in my head anyway

You bring up some interesting things here Chris

I can see you've been thinking about the subject as well

Well ... Lets see what all you've mentioned here

1) Price between KB and Centri
2) KB has only two choices of intake
3) KB has the heat to deal with
4) KB has more low/mid range tq than Centri
5) You like the looks of the KB
6) More Centris around so more price options on a used unit
7) You say my torque curve will stay the same even if I go blown
8) A blower will make working on the car a bit more difficult due to interference
9) Noise factor

My thoughts about each of them using the number as a reference

1 & 6 Price

I got a bit of a different reasoning about price than a lot of folks

I go for value over cheap price
and
If I have to pay more for better value ... then ... So be it

I can be patient and save a bit longer with no problem at all

Summing up ... I don't worry too much about price ... Most of the time

2 I could always move my Edel RPM for about the same price as a
Cobra so that is not much of a deal breaker for me either way

3 While that is something to be dealt with ...........
I feel it is a bit overstated by most

Now ... That is my first impressions based upon SOME reserach
but
Before I pulled the trigger on a KB ... more research would be done for sure

4 Not much to say here ... More torque on the street is KING

5 Looks mean next to nothing to me

I build a car to drive and make me happy as I drive it
I don't build a car to drive to a parking lot ... raise the hood ... and show it

I'm into function first and appearance is on the bottom of the to do list

When I'm driving around I won't be able to see either choice of blower
under the hood is what I'm trying to say here

7 I don't think my current cam will do all that well with a blower
with its 109 lsa. I feel it will blow a good bit of boost out the
e valve with that kind of overlap

Now ... I could be wrong here but I kinda think thats whats gonna happen

8 I wouldn't have any issues with either choice of blower in this area

9 Hey ... The little woman has got her MDX to drive

The Stang is MY car and HER opinions have no bearing what so ever :Word:

I personally feel the older Vortechs that ... Scream ... Growl ... Sound like
a Thrashing Machine ... Howl like a Banshee

Well ... All that noise is Way too Much and is Way over the Top

Besides

The newer units are more quiet
AND
They also build up boost sooner

Yes ... KB and Vortech each have their good and bad points

I got some ideas I wanna run past all of you
but
They need to be later in the thread

I don't wanna put MY ideas in your head at this point in time

I'm mainly interested in what YOU got to say for now

Good Stuff Guys

Lets see some more thoughts on the subject

Grady

 

[final5-0]

It's the belts that always go south in them, right? Or is the the blower itself? I noticed they stopped making mustang blowers a while ago and never really thought about them again until I saw your post

Yes ... You are correct about the older units ... The belts failed

I know they've done up some newer and improved units
but
I still don't think they are on the same level as Vortech

Hey ... If I'm wrong here ... Somebody give me some schoolin on the subject

Grady

 

[The O.G.]

geez

does it take you a while to find what you want on a resteraunt menu

 

[Pokageek]

Too many peeps blow up their engines with KB's. You see it all the time. Pics of engines torn down. I like the idea of adding boost to your combo Grady. Tell me again, what would you do for trans? With flat top pistons, wouldn't you have to dumb down your timing which would greatly reduce low end? I had to do this with my 302 when I tried nitrous and I hated it. Be nice if there was a way around it. I had 10:5:1 compression though.

 

[Black Stampede]

I have much confidence that you could (and should IMO) get a vortech, make your power goal with not a whole ton of boost, and be able to tune it to run exactly the way it does now with terrific street manners. Not to mention vortechs are tried and true and you could install it in a day. Its hard to argue. I mean, good brand, will make 400 rwhp with probably 6-8 psi, and you have much experience in tuning to get it to have great street manners. Thats my vote.

 

[final5-0]

OK ... OK ... OK ... Guys!

Don't be a bunch of Lemmings and just do what the masses do

Now ... I'm kiddin here ... well ... Kinda Sorta

Yes ... Vortech is tried and true and proven
but
A KB can be made to be quite impressive :Word:

True ... for every 10 who had sucess with a Vortech

It might be like only 1 who did it with a KB

You do remember ... I'm the guy that almost made it to 300 rwhp
with a bunch of OEM stuff

I kinda like to do things different from the masses

I ain't saying I've made up my mind to go KB

I am saying I'm keeping an open mind about both options

Grady

 

[final5-0]

geez

does it take you a while to find what you want on a resteraunt menu

Not really ... When it comes to food ... I know what I like
and
I don't usually go out on a limb and try stuff I ain't sure about

Grady

 

[final5-0]

Too many peeps blow up their engines with KB's. You see it all the time. Pics of engines torn down. I like the idea of adding boost to your combo Grady. Tell me again, what would you do for trans? With flat top pistons, wouldn't you have to dumb down your timing which would greatly reduce low end? I had to do this with my 302 when I tried nitrous and I hated it. Be nice if there was a way around it. I had 10:5:1 compression though.

I can't say I've seen that kind of thing from peeps running KB's Keith

I'm pretty easy on my Stang

I usually roll into the power as opposed to a dead stop so that kind of thing
helps take the strain off the trans

but ... Yes ... Sooner or later ... I'd have to upgrade to a Tremec or the like

About the pistons ... I'd not do anything about them

As for the spark curve ... You'd just have to do up one that fit the
needs of a blown combo so I couldn't say how it might effect the
low end

Low end ... What is there to worry about when you run a KB

Grady

 

[final5-0]

I have much confidence that you could (and should IMO) get a vortech, make your power goal with not a whole ton of boost, and be able to tune it to run exactly the way it does now with terrific street manners. Not to mention vortechs are tried and true and you could install it in a day. Its hard to argue. I mean, good brand, will make 400 rwhp with probably 6-8 psi, and you have much experience in tuning to get it to have great street manners. Thats my vote.

Well Jon

You do make some valid points here

Lets first talk about ... amount of boost

I'd think 6-8 psi on my combo would yield more gain than the same on a stocker

Maybe around 15 rwhp for each psi

Maybe a ball park end result would put me at 300 + 120 additional for 420 total

As for street manners and tuning ... I ani't skeered

What do you guys think the boost curve would look like with one of the
newer SQ units and my current sig combo

I mean ... Would I only see 8 psi at like 5500 to 6K

As you can see ... I'm just now starting to pay attention to blown data
so
I got a bunch of research to do before I can even talk intelligently

Grady

 

[Hef5.0weisen]

some food for thought.....

KB's make the power down low, for me; step on the gas.. 8 psi lasts till I shift gears, I've heard it falls off with RPM but am yet to experience it. Heat, sure it gets hot, but I've never had any real problems, even in the 100+ NC summer. Yeah, I popped the head gaskets, but in their defense they were originals, facing 10 psi, second back road run after installing the KB, good times though....limped home, backed off the timing, swapped pullies, swapped HG's......multi throttle romps, and several cross country expeditions, still worry free

I like it, but this isn't a track warrior/vette slayer, never intended to be. Soon I'll be adding Eddy heads, a "cam", ported lower, and some fuel stuff to ditch the 19's and FMU, again looking for some more oomph, kinda the opposite approach you took Grady. I've had it for a few years now, still has plenty of oomph in it, just needs more fuel, so I figured while I'm at it...even got the Tweecer, just need the time to put it all on. As for it being a few years old, I'm yet to experience the fabled oil drinking KB's are notorious for. Not saying it doesn't happen, maybe I just got the good one from the assembly line.

No hands on experience with the vortech types, but don't they need the RPm for boost....to me RPM is that (oh so sweet) noise, that'll attract attention on the street, maybe not the kind we want. With the RPM a natural occurence is gonna be speed, again drawing the negative attention. Not trying to dog the vortech guys and sound like the KB's are better or what not, just some thinking out loud, well, on a keyboard anyway. Maybe some of those guys using them have their thoughts...

6 one way, half dozen the other

 

[Pokageek]

Sure Grady, two items:

#1 I have an out of the box idea for you and

#2 I don't have any personal usage with it but Chris had heat issues with his and I have seen several threads showing cracked pistons and stuff with KB..at least enough that it rings a bell. I am surprised you hadn't heard of this as well.

the other thing to remember about the kenne-bells is that since they are large metal objects sitting on top of the engine, they can get extremely hot themselves, and that can also heat up the intake air.

anyone with a kb would be well advised to have a water or meth injection system.

just mho

Have you done some research......if not talk to some who have ran it...I was told by my tuner that heat was a issue and that I would be better served with a centrifical such as Vortech...I know that Chris "BlackVert" ran one some years back and sold it......I have thought about it as I like the ease of installation but was informed it would not be in my best interest....just my 2 cents.......if you get feedback from others please share.

i spoke with a gent named kennedy who has the worlds fastest kb 5.0 and he stated that because i live in vegas and we see 115 in the summer do not buy the kb.even with meth injection it wouldnt help enough to cool the air charge to a safe temp so buy a turbo kit with an intercooler or a procharger.those are his words not mine.i reallly want a kb and kb says pretty much the same.they said in a hot climate like mine there kit wouldnt be safe past 6 maybe 7 psi.what a dissappointment.

Now if your temps get real hot in TX, I would probably do a lot of research before I bought one (you may already have).

Ok, so you wanted out of the box? Sell the afr's. Take the money and buy some cheap e7's and put a turbo on it! This way you can buy an old rx7 or supra or some other inter-cooler cheap too and rock out in those hot TX temps!

"I'd think 6-8 psi on my combo would yield more gain than the same on a stocker

Maybe around 15 rwhp for each psi

Maybe a ball park end result would put me at 300 + 120 additional for 420 total"

Get back to me on this one but if you have high compression, it may not work that way. You may have to kill timing so your 6# may not get you that far. I could be wrong tho. I owned a turbo car (that started out NA) so I do have some expereince but not sure.

 

[stangboy]

Well, even though my idea seemed to have gotten shot out of the water early, I'm more of a NA kinda guy 1st. I personally don't think going with a stroker will put you in block-splitting territory. It should put you right at your goal with reliability. When you get over 500 with an OEM block THEN you're getting into block-splitting territory. You said the car is a weekend toy that you mostly play on the street with.

I don't have any experience with forced induction so I can really chime in on that part of the thread. But I am taking notes. One day I'd like to have a supercharged or turbo'd stang.

 

[Dizzy_ax]

I love my V1, its not as loud as i thought it would be and the proformance of it has been pretty amazing, 418-430 and my stock T-5 and 114k on my clutch is holding it just fine. My car doesnt act like anything more then stock when i drive it normal besides for having to watch the speedo. It takes less for me to get up to speed then it used to ;p

Problems i've ran into, none so far. Besides being addicted to boost/HP now ha ha ha...

The boost comes on fast and stays there till i shift wich is pretty nice, i asked my tuner wich one to get and he told me they are all the same head unit 1-2-3 besides v2-v3 being quiet and the v3 being self contained. he has not ran into one building boost faster then the other and if it does i couldnt see it being that much faster to actually make a difference

Here is the stats for the Vortech choices, and Vortechs little bio on each.

Utilizing precision ground gears to drive its impeller, the V-1 incorporates the strength of superior design with the quality and testing that make Vortech famous. As a result of our precise drive system, the impeller requires minimum clearance which contributes to Vortech's superior efficiency and durability. The heavy duty (H/D) V-1 configurations include high-speed ball bearings, ideal for race applications, i.e. cog pulley/Gilmer drive. From the race ready T-Trim to the high-efficiency Si-Trim, the V-1 is a versatile supercharger for the most demanding enthusiast.


v1
Max Speed: 55000 RPM
Max Boost: 26 PSI
Max Flow: 1150 CFM
Max Power: 775 HP
Peak Efficiency: 78%
^^^26psi! LOL. that would be fun to watch

The V-2 SQ model is considered the new generation among superchargers. Highly advanced computer designed gears feature an optimized helical profile which allows for near silent operation while providing superior performance. All V-2 SQ units feature a 3.6:1 internal step-up ratio and are direct bolt-on replacements for our V-1 units.


v2
Max Speed: 52000 RPM
Max Boost: 22 PSI
Max Flow: 1150 CFM
Max Power: 775 HP
Peak Efficiency: 78%

The V-3 supercharger features an internally lubricated transmission, allowing for supercharger installation and operation without oil lines.

Helical gear design with 3.6:1 step-up
The V-3 supercharger can be installed into any existing Vortech V-1, V-2, V-4, V-5 or V-7 bracketry
Includes remote fluid drain hose (attached to supercharger) that allows for simple fluid changes without removing the supercharger from the vehicle
A ventilated gear case assembly eliminates any potential internal pressure issues that are currently associated with non-vented competitive designs
Integrated gear case baffling for proper oil control
Simple oil slinger design does not require separate shaft or bearing set. This provides proper fluid delivery to gears and bearings
Superchargers are factory pre-filled with our special synthetic fluid.
Integrated dipstick for simple fluid checks


v3
Max Speed: 52000 RPM
Max Boost: 22 PSI
Max Flow: 1150 CFM
Max Power: 775 HP
Peak Efficiency: 78%


I was going with KB but a few things threw me off, stock lower or GT-40 lower intake manifold, Heat? They claim its a colder intake charge and doesnt need to be intercooled. and not knowing what i want to do in the future,I do some day want to build a block and push more boost with an intercooler but when i dont know lol. My car was at 418 when i got it back from them with meth/water injection and all of the aftermarker goodies to make it work good. my vote is Vortech! Unless you like cooking the tires at any speed ;p

Do your research and make sure you are set on it. Find some locals with vortech and KB S/C and go for a ride! watch videos read the dont buy this product it did this to me posts and stuff like that. its a pretty big pile of money to get it all going good and the last thing you want to do is hate the end result. Not the MPG matters at this point in the game I get the same MPG if i stay away from the boost, 16 HWY lol.


EDIT: well more of a add on, you said you like to roll into power, KB is 2000RPM=full PSI, Vortech a little higher and ill add my dyno sheet. If you remember we were pretty close HP wise (not torque ;p)

Here first is a video of my car, and honestly (Down low) in my car is a fraction of a second before mr Vortech kicks in and seys heres a ton of boost!



And last the dyno sheet. SAFE TUNE! There is alot more in this combo but why push it?

and i did some LED action too lol.... its fun having a boost and A/F guage..

And i will add my bias! im a track guy and love going down there and knew with a KB id just spin like mad without some nice traction mods. (This track sucks!) ha ha ha.