Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

final5-0 · Mar 28, 2009

stangboy said:
Well, even though my idea seemed to have gotten shot out of the water early, I'm more of a NA kinda guy 1st. I personally don't think going with a stroker will put you in b-splitting territory. It should put you right at your goal with reliability. When you get over 500 with an OEM block THEN you're getting into b-splitting territory. You said the car is a weekend toy that you mostly play on the street with.

I don't have any experience with forced induction so I can really chime in on that part of the thread. But I am taking notes. One day I'd like to have a supercharged or turbo'd stang.

Sorry Craig

I misunderstood your post

I thought you were saying to do all you said AND a blower

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 28, 2009

Hef5.0weisen said:
some food for thought.....

KB's make the power down low, for me; step on the gas.. 8 psi lasts till I shift gears, I've heard it falls off with RPM but am yet to experience it. Heat, sure it gets hot, but I've never had any real problems, even in the 100+ NC summer. Yeah, I popped the head gaskets, but in their defense they were originals, facing 10 psi, second back road run after installing the KB, good times though....limped home, backed off the timing, swapped pullies, swapped HG's......multi throttle romps, and several cross country expeditions, still worry free

I like it, but this isn't a track warrior/vette slayer, never intended to be. Soon I'll be adding Eddy heads, a "cam", ported lower, and some fuel stuff to ditch the 19's and FMU, again looking for some more oomph, kinda the opposite approach you took Grady. I've had it for a few years now, still has plenty of oomph in it, just needs more fuel, so I figured while I'm at it...even got the Tweecer, just need the time to put it all on. As for it being a few years old, I'm yet to experience the fabled oil drinking KB's are notorious for. Not saying it doesn't happen, maybe I just got the good one from the assembly line.

No hands on experience with the vortech types, but don't they need the RPm for boost....to me RPM is that (oh so sweet) noise, that'll attract attention on the street, maybe not the kind we want. With the RPM a natural occurence is gonna be speed, again drawing the negative attention. Not trying to dog the vortech guys and sound like the KB's are better or what not, just some thinking out loud, well, on a keyboard anyway. Maybe some of those guys using them have their thoughts...

6 one way, half dozen the other

Good stuff Brian

Its always great to see data from one who has done it :Word:

Sure ... You can pop a hg with either blower if the tune is off

Lets get to the heat issue

Why do you have no issues but others have said they did

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 28, 2009

Pokageek said:
Sure Grady, two items:

#1 I have an out of the box idea for you and

#2 I don't have any personal usage with it but Chris had heat issues with his and I have seen several threads showing cracked pistons and stuff with KB..at least enough that it rings a bell. I am surprised you hadn't heard of this as well.

Now if your temps get real hot in TX, I would probably do a lot of research before I bought one (you may already have).

Ok, so you wanted out of the box? Sell the afr's. Take the money and buy some cheap e7's and put a turbo on it! This way you can buy an old rx7 or supra or some other inter-cooler cheap too and rock out in those hot TX temps!

"I'd think 6-8 psi on my combo would yield more gain than the same on a stocker

Maybe around 15 rwhp for each psi

Maybe a ball park end result would put me at 300 + 120 additional for 420 total"

Get back to me on this one but if you have high compression, it may not work that way. You may have to kill timing so your 6# may not get you that far. I could be wrong tho. I owned a turbo car (that started out NA) so I do have some expereince but not sure.

Good info Keith

Now that you bring it up ... I do remember Chris and his KB efforts

I'd not say I got high compression but I did have my 165's cut a bit

Grady

blksn955.o · Mar 28, 2009

I am happy with my combo...I am fixing the suspension issues I have. Suspension would probably be what I would put some money into. Specifically a griggs/MM setup. I compromised on basically going with the best stock components like bullitt springs/shocks/struts 03 arms more so for the well rounded-ness of them and replacing them down the road is not a arm and a leg or hard to find.

It would be nice to have a car that could REALLY handle...like BMW/Zo6 handle. In the end it seems I would then compromise the ride quality.

Power wise if my current setup was to go. I honestly would probably do some kind of mild turbo build, I would be very much on the fence about going stroker or not. The goal would be at getting 450-ish rwhp on a matched setup from like Ed or the like so it would probably not be that radical. Probably TFS heads and a 64-ish mm turbo on 12-15lbs max.

Right now all I want is a fun car I can take out and do whatever with. Run out to the MO wine country on some very nice back roads were I grew up and/or go just cruise maybe have a run in or two going out for the evening. I dont need to pull 1g on the skidpad or get a 1.3 60ft. The reason I went with the suspension setup I am moving to seems to fit that goal.

final5-0 · Mar 28, 2009

Dizzy_ax said:
I love my V1, its not as loud as i thought it would be and the proformance of it has been pretty amazing, 418-430 and my stock T-5 and 114k on my clutch is holding it just fine. My car doesnt act like anything more then stock when i drive it normal besides for having to watch the speedo. It takes less for me to get up to speed then it used to ;p

Thanks for the info Jeff
and
The included dyno pull is just GREAT

Tell me as accurately as you can .......
How you build boost

Say like you put it in 3rd at like 2K and watched boost build with rpm

I mean ... You usually see the Vortech boys say just like you said

The boost comes on fast

I want some hard data

I need something that strips away any and all opinions :Word:

Grady

Dizzy_ax · Mar 28, 2009

Glad to be some help, Okay i know for a fact my V1 cant build boost like a KB as you can see on my track video there was that small point between me grabbing and then that puff of smoke was a pretty healthy smack of boost.

This is all very new to me! my last car was a 93 ford escort station wagon ha ha ha...

I find it hard to watch my boost gauge and keep track of the RPM's.

I know i make 10 pounds on the stock pully, the car starts building that boost at 2900ish RPM, Five pounds comes insanly fast! It isnt slow at all, it seems to jump right up there. This could be why the vortech guys say it makes boost fast, because it does! just not full boost ;p

id say by 3400 im at 5-6 and at 6 psi my meth kicks in so im not sure if my set up is the best to compare to a stock one? but when the meth kicks in 6-8/9 is by id have to say 4500-5000 and i get 10 right there at the end. i push it to 6000-6200 now and shift right back into the 7-8 range with meth still on.

from a dig rolling into boost feels great, i can understand the instant boost would feel really good but i really wouldnt want to mess with that with my car, I have to find some space to test this out but from what i feel/hear it seems to be pretty close. im going to go find someone who has actually done this test or a video.

2900-3200ish five pounds seys hello
3400- Six psi and meth
4400-5500 7-8
5500- hell breaks loose and my meth kicks in full blast launching me to 6200 making 10 pounds and i shift and repete.

stangboy · Mar 28, 2009

final5-0 said:
Sorry Craig

I misunderstood your post

I thought you were saying to do all you said AND a blower

Grady

Oooooohhhh, so thats why you thought it would make b-splitting hp. lol

Dizzy_ax · Mar 28, 2009

yay found one lol, here is a post i found and an upgrade they do but im not sure if they still do, i guess it lets you build boost faster down low so you get almost the best of both worlds ;p

"I got off the phone with Vortech and here is what I was told...

The Si-trim upgrade is a happy medium between the S and T-trim. However it has the ability to be more efficent at 78% and allow more boost generated at lower RPM. (I think they're sick of losing to the roots/twinscrew guys on the mod cars) It will be good for 775hp and/or 27psi. The CFM is just a few ticks off from a T-trim.

The cost is 329 and they do an impeller change and send it back to you. The turnaround time right now is 1.5 weeks.

I asked if they had any documentation and a side by side comparison about the Si vs the S vs T. But he said they don't have anything avalible like that yet.

Uppon further research the guys over on the 350z forums have sent in a few of theirs to be converted and said they've had good results. Alot of their feedback is hitting their desired boost levels earlier.

This is all good news. My S-trim see's 5-psi at 3500ish and 10 at 6000. A little earlier down low would be awesome!!

I just want some feedback from the mustang community before I eat 2 weeks of good driving time for this."

actually a whole line of stuff you might want to read

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7734342

They say when the car makes its PSI in there from a few different combos

Pokageek · Mar 28, 2009

I am real interested in your "aspirations" Grady. I would like to add a little of my own knowledge as we go. I had a boosted car (I am not going to say what kind right yet). It came from the factory with no boosting option but I found out the engine was made for boost. Anywho, it was a lot of fun watching folks with cars that should be passing you.."surge back" in your rear view, lol...

I added an intercooler and it was awesome. The car revved up so fast in RPM that sometimes I would literally NOT HAVE TIME TO shift! I dunno if any of you have experienced a spool up that fast but it is incredible fun.

As to the ...milled heads I am guessing that is good cuz it means your compression will be ok.

p.s. On the trans my advice is don't skimp. You might as well go the rest of the way. Don't get the .64 5th gear unless you plan to run 4.30's or something. I also highly recommend the tq box welds and the G-Force trans by promotion is less weight, money and bolts right into your existing combo without modification or any plaging vibrations.

BlackVert · Mar 29, 2009

what is your budget grady? cause you can't beat big cubes for killer power and torque with stock-like drivability

Black Stampede · Mar 29, 2009

Why don't you tell us some more about your parameters Grady. In regards to my Vortech suggestion its not my favorite boosted application as I obviously have a turbo, which I love. Its just my impression that you don't want to drastically change your motor and want to not have any question in your mind that whatever you do is going to run great and have no problems. To me that says Vortech. Definitely not the most unique approach, but still a great option with probably the least possible problems.

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

Good info from all

Thanks for getting involved and sharing

I started this thread for two reasons

One is for my possible future plans
and
The other is for my best friend who doing up a nice Old School 67 Coupe

I know for both applications ...
We have determined ... OEM block only ... thus the goal of 450 max

Now ... At this particular time ... My focus in this thread revolves around

Power adder choice is Blower
and
Blower choice is either Vortech or KB

The intent of this thread is for me to gather some knowledge from those
who have done a Vortech or KB
OR
Get some info from those who have first hand knowledge which will
be of some REAL use to me

I'm not really interested in OPINIONS here
I am looking for facts and hard data which always is better than an opinion

This thread is not going to go in the direction of peeps getting all hot and
bothered about which is best and then feeling they have to defend their
choice of blower

I'm sure you have seen those kinds of threads and nothing of value
comes from them when peeps revert to that kind of childish behavior

If by chance the thread goes in that direction
I'll just not reply any more and let it die out on its own :Word:

Now ... Lets get into some discussion which will be helpful to all for now
and in the future

We all know KB is all about max boost early
and
Vortech builds starts to build boost later but it grows as rpm rises

My main focus is which of those two power producing options do I want for ...

A Street Car ... NOT ... a Drag Car
and
Not an application that ... I go out and hunt up for myself a race on the street

Good thing about going with Vortech is .............
I can use my current intake

The cam ... I'm not so sure about

then again

To go with a different intake and use a KB wouldn't be a deal breaker for me

So ... Does the above info help anybody with their thoughts on the subject?

Grady

95Vert383AOD · Mar 29, 2009

I think the problems that some experience with the KB is that because you get max boost threw more of the RPM range you technically tax the motor more.(Fatter HP/TQ curve)

On an EFI its not about just tuning at WOT. KB claims full boost at 2000rpm. So im sure if your fuel system isn't adequate then the KB will lean out your mixture pretty quick. ((BOOM)) Boost-A-Pump is a bandaid.

I was thinking of going Kenne Bell on my 383. I'm just not so sure what the air flow is like on the GT40 351 lower. I feel on my combo that a GT40 could be a bottle neck between the KB and the AFR 205 heads i plan on installing.

Sorry about the mild hijack

Chris

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

BlackVert said:
what is your budget grady? cause you can't beat big cubes for killer power and torque with stock-like drivability

Yes Chris

It is hard to argue against a big motor

My firend will most likely go 347 for his shortblock

but

We both are looking into A L L options

As for budget ...
Because my OEM short block is in good shape ... I'm going to stay
with it as my foundation to build from

Of course I will need ....
choice of blower
aftermarket ignition
larger inj's
etc

For now ... budget is kinda open as I'm still gathering all the data

For now and in this thread ... I wanted to focus in on a blower

Let me say a bit more about this thread

I've done up so many different NA cars in the past

From very mild street cars to high rpm drag only applications

I've never done a blower or turbo car

Before I did my current sig combo I looked very closely into a blower
but
That was way back in 2002

For me ... here are things that appeal to me about using a blower or turbo

The mix being forced makes head, intake, header, etc choice not quite as
critical as NA does

You can use smaller parts and still make good power

I'm pretty set on tuning such a car ... equipment that is
but
I will have to learn a new trick or two

I can get to more power with the stuff I now got using a blower

If I go NA and big cubes ... all my stuff it too small
and
I done done that and got many t shirts to show I done did it

I think a Blower ... OR ... Turbo would be fun

Hey ... Me and my buddy have considered a carb, bonnet, & turbo for his 67

anywho ... Just some random thoughts

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

95Vert383AOD said:
I think the problems that some experience with the KB is that because you get max boost threw more of the RPM range you technically tax the motor more.(Fatter HP/TQ curve)

On an EFI its not about just tuning at WOT. KB claims full boost at 2000rpm. So im sure if your fuel system isn't adequate then the KB will lean out your mixture pretty quick. ((BOOM)) Boost-A-Pump is a bandaid.

I was thinking of going Kenne Bell on my 383. I'm just not so sure what the air flow is like on the GT40 351 lower. I feel on my combo that a GT40 could be a bottle neck between the KB and the AFR 205 heads i plan on installing.

Sorry about the mild hijack

Chris

Hey Chris

I do not consider your input here to be a hijack at all

I'm grateful for thoughtful input here

You bring up some good points

Yes ... at that low of an rpm ... with that amount of boost

The load is going to be VERY HIGH :Word:
thus
You better be able to supply enough fuel

I've always seen it said with a forced combo ......

Fuel is needed for TWO reasons
1 To provide the correct air/fuel ratio mix which makes max hp
2 Cool charge temps in the hole which is high due to the big squeeze

Yes ... The tiny GT40 Lower is gonna hold back the flow when compared
to more later tech intakes which have to be less restrictive
but
Then again ... The blower is gonna cram down the mix

Good Stuff My Friend

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

Dizzy_ax said:
yay found one lol, here is a post i found and an upgrade they do but im not sure if they still do, i guess it lets you build boost faster down low so you get almost the best of both worlds ;p

"I got off the phone with Vortech and here is what I was told...

The Si-trim upgrade is a happy medium between the S and T-trim. However it has the ability to be more efficent at 78% and allow more boost generated at lower RPM. (I think they're sick of losing to the roots/twinscrew guys on the mod cars) It will be good for 775hp and/or 27psi. The CFM is just a few ticks off from a T-trim.

The cost is 329 and they do an impeller change and send it back to you. The turnaround time right now is 1.5 weeks.

I asked if they had any documentation and a side by side comparison about the Si vs the S vs T. But he said they don't have anything avalible like that yet.

Uppon further research the guys over on the 350z forums have sent in a few of theirs to be converted and said they've had good results. Alot of their feedback is hitting their desired boost levels earlier.

This is all good news. My S-trim see's 5-psi at 3500ish and 10 at 6000. A little earlier down low would be awesome!!

I just want some feedback from the mustang community before I eat 2 weeks of good driving time for this."

actually a whole line of stuff you might want to read

Talk to me about the new Si-Trim Vortech? - Corral Forums

They say when the car makes its PSI in there from a few different combos

Man O Man

I read through the first half of that huge thread
and
Skimmed through the rest

them boys are serious

They be WAY over the top of what I wanna do with my little Street Car App :Word:

Interesting read though

Grady

Hef5.0weisen · Mar 29, 2009

Grady,

I haven't had any noticeable problems with the heat issue. I'm sure its there, and I'm getting anxious to put my tweecer on the see the IAT temps, as I'm sure they're elevated. For this variable of heat, and as I see it from other threads I've read, sure, you lose some HP by the heated intake temp. How much...who knows, although I'm sure there is an equation out there for it, in fact I think its on KB's website. No biggie for me as, again, no vette slayer here
Guess a good way to see if that is a big factor is some back to back passes, first nice and cool then a few hot laps where everything is hot, although I;ve never noticed my car to flatten out after its been heated up. Not saying its not there and trying to test hard evidence, just not noticeable to me.

For the heat variable in regards to coolant temperature, I did see a rise in that area, as monitored by an autometer coolant temp gage. Nothing ridiculous, summer time traffic redlights may get to 200+/- some. Get moving again cools right off. I did the fan switch trick, if I need it. I also use a fluidyne 2 row, the stocker just needed replacement, figured why not get a good one. Stocker worked fine while it was in there and battling with the KB.

Sounds like the Vortechs make boost sooner that I thought, thats encouraging. I do like the way they come on, turbos too. Differnet feeling than the KB's, and who doesn't like variety. As for the KB's, its true it feels like a big block. When I was shopping for a SC I took a ride in my friends 'stang with a KB. I knew it had the KB, but my first ride in it I didn't even know we were in the boost.....till I realized how fast we were going and looked at the gauge. Iwas expecting the to feel it come on like the centris do, but I was wrong, we were just hauling a$$ from the get go. Sold me on it. Then he did the heads and a cam, whew!!!very nice. I'm going down that road now, pile 'o parts on the garage.....just need spare time.

I'll say this about the KB's as far as dislikes; the install takes out the stock idler pulley, then you just have the mount on the bracket sitting there. It's fugly. I have seen it re "engineered"/re used and plan on doing it, also gives the pulley more belt wrap, nice thread about it on the "other" site. But as it sits....fugly. Another is one of the mounting bolts (driver side/middle) from the SC to the lower manifold. Not so much a PITA to take on/off, (KB supllies the wrench [~9 inch t-handle allen key] to do it) but the design itself is not great IMO, works fine, but you'd have to see it. To remove the bolt you have to use the allen key on an angle (its a ball end type wrench), could easily round it out, then you're F'd. I replace it everytime as a precaution, its cheap insurance. Like I said, works fine, I just don't like it.

And thanks for that caveat about this turning into a KB vs. Vortech kinda thread. I'm not trying to sell you a KB, just offering my experience with it. Pretty sure I haven't bad mouthed the Vortechs, and don't intend to. Those threads get entertaining :fairyfight:

And one more thing, just for *****s and giggles, ever thought about a 150 shot of the sauce? Cheaper, use your current parts, turns on/ off, adjustable? I'm sure you're well aware of the N20 kits capablitites so I'll stop....just a thought.

Brian

Dizzy_ax · Mar 29, 2009

I was just showing you the rpm's vs PSI but i started going down that thread and realized it got big fast lol.

I dont want to sell you on a Vortech either!!!!! As far as working around them id have to say its not that bad, just take out the tb bolts and turn it sideways

Big block power and the whine to go with it is amazing, but every other person stopping in the street/parking lots...anywhere and staring at my car like what the hell is in that thing?! and the older guys "What kind of supercharger do you have" is a pretty good feeling

The exhaust note is amazing in either application i must add! dont have an idle clip but the exhaust doesnt just bellow out like it used to, now it shoots out

Both kits id say dont mess with the boost a pump / inline pumps. They really cant handle a mod moter that well and why push stuff to the limit ;p safe is always good! I went with a 255 in tank and a 255 inline (I was told around 450 the 255 in tank cant push out enough fuel) Might want to look into that

Prochargers inline actually flows right! ;p spendy kit but i just took the inline from one lol.

This is a good thread and im happy people are honest about problems they are having with theirs, I'll chime in when mine starts giving me hell ;p

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

Dizzy_ax said:
Glad to be some help, Okay i know for a fact my V1 cant build boost like a KB

OK ... My man Jeff

You say you wanna help ... I'm gonna shine the spotlight on you a bit here

We gonna make you famous Son

I did some poking around in my files
and
Guess What ... I found I got data from your Old Combo

I am currently gathering up data so be prepared to answer a Q or two :Word:

I want to do a compairson kinda deal using your old and new Combo

Here is what I now got on the old Combo

If you would be so kind to fill in the ? missing data for the old combo
and
Provide same details about the new combo ... I will do the rest

I really do think this is gonna be VERY helpful for everybody :Word:

I'm really looking forward to seeing how all the data shakes out here

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

This thread is gonna bring out into the light stuff some may not have seen :Word:

I found some great data while rummaging around in my old files

Stuff like boost and rpm values as they rise for BOTH Vortech & KB

We can chart them out and compare em

Gotta go for now as I got the first race of F1 loaded up to watch

be back after the race

Grady

Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

final5-0

Mustang Master

final5-0

Mustang Master

final5-0

Mustang Master

blksn955.o

final5-0

Mustang Master

Dizzy_ax

Member

stangboy

Dizzy_ax

Member

Pokageek

Active Member

BlackVert

Black Stampede

final5-0

Mustang Master

95Vert383AOD

final5-0

Mustang Master

final5-0

Mustang Master

final5-0

Mustang Master

Hef5.0weisen

Dizzy_ax

Member

final5-0

Mustang Master

final5-0

Mustang Master

Similar threads

Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Member

Member

Active Member

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Member

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency