Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

Hef5.0weisen said:
Grady,

I haven't had any noticeable problems with the heat issue. I'm sure its there, and I'm getting anxious to put my tweecer on the see the IAT temps, as I'm sure they're elevated. For this variable of heat, and as I see it from other threads I've read, sure, you lose some HP by the heated intake temp. How much...who knows, although I'm sure there is an equation out there for it, in fact I think its on KB's website. No biggie for me as, again, no vette slayer here
Guess a good way to see if that is a big factor is some back to back passes, first nice and cool then a few hot laps where everything is hot, although I;ve never noticed my car to flatten out after its been heated up. Not saying its not there and trying to test hard evidence, just not noticeable to me.

Good info about what you have experienced Brian

Sounds like the Vortechs make boost sooner that I thought, thats encouraging. I do like the way they come on, turbos too. Differnet feeling than the KB's, and who doesn't like variety. As for the KB's, its true it feels like a big block. When I was shopping for a SC I took a ride in my friends 'stang with a KB. I knew it had the KB, but my first ride in it I didn't even know we were in the boost.....till I realized how fast we were going and looked at the gauge. Iwas expecting the to feel it come on like the centris do, but I was wrong, we were just hauling a$$ from the get go. Sold me on it. Then he did the heads and a cam, whew!!!very nice. I'm going down that road now, pile 'o parts on the garage.....just need spare time.

Well ... We are going to put some hard data in place about this very issue :Word:

I'll say this about the KB's as far as dislikes; the install takes out the stock idler pulley, then you just have the mount on the bracket sitting there. It's fugly. I have seen it re "engineered"/re used and plan on doing it, also gives the pulley more belt wrap, nice thread about it on the "other" site. But as it sits....fugly. Another is one of the mounting bolts (driver side/middle) from the SC to the lower manifold. Not so much a PITA to take on/off, (KB supllies the wrench [~9 inch t-handle allen key] to do it) but the design itself is not great IMO, works fine, but you'd have to see it. To remove the bolt you have to use the allen key on an angle (its a ball end type wrench), could easily round it out, then you're F'd. I replace it everytime as a precaution, its cheap insurance. Like I said, works fine, I just don't like it.

Yes ... I've seen various posts over the years talking about how to improve the belt wrap thing from time to time

And thanks for that caveat about this turning into a KB vs. Vortech kinda thread. I'm not trying to sell you a KB, just offering my experience with it. Pretty sure I haven't bad mouthed the Vortechs, and don't intend to. Those threads get entertaining :fairyfight:

You know how it is Brian ... Peeps can kinda loose control ever now and then

Then again ... This is 94-95 :SNSign:

I will dare anyone to find a bunch of gearhead folk like we got here who
can even come close to matching how they all behave when on line and
posting in this forum :Word:

We got folk here who act like a real man and not some punk kid who
has not one ounce of class within him

I'd have to say me even bringing that out was most likely unnecessary

And one more thing, just for *****s and giggles, ever thought about a 150 shot of the sauce? Cheaper, use your current parts, turns on/ off, adjustable? I'm sure you're well aware of the N20 kits capablitites so I'll stop....just a thought.

Brian

I really don't care much for the juice method myself

Brian ... How a bit of basic info on KB's and your combo

First of all ... What size KB do you use

Second ... How does it fit in as far as what all KB offers

I know they built mostly a small and large size for a good while
but
They now offer several different sizes ... do they not

Also ... I've seen those who know KB's well say a h/c/i combo will cause
the small offering to run out of breath at higher rpm's

Lastly ... IIRC I remember the larger unit offers a bypass
and
It seems to me I remember folks saying it helps with heat build up

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

OK Guys

Found some hard data on boost with a Vortech

True ... This combo is a stroker
but
Data such as this is kinda hard to find
and
It does show the basic tendency or characteristic of how a Vortec makes boost

Just for a reference ..........
25% of 10.8 psi is 2.7 psi and occurs at 2900 rpm with 340tq & 187hp
50% of 10.8 psi is 5.4 psi and occurs at 4200 rpm with 443tq & 352hp
75% of 10.8 psi is 8.1 psi and occurs at 5200 rpm with 480tq & 472hp

Now ... When you consider you have to turn 5200 rpm BEFORE you
start to see the last 25% of your boost range

Well ... That is kinda eye opening to me

Not saying that is necessarily a bad thing

I somehow or the other thought it might have been like only the remaining
10 or 15%

anyway ... the data is what it is and your thoughts are welcomed

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

I found some data on a KB1700

Yes ... I know this is not our beloved 5.0 pushrod motor

Still ... It will do to graphically show the difference with the Vortech

As with the Vortech example
25% of 13.3 psi is 3.33 psi and occurs at NA rpm
50% of 13.3 psi is 6.65 psi and occurs at NA rpm
75% of 13.3 psi is 9.76 psi and occurs at 1900 rpm with 379tq & 138hp

Notice the boost starts to drop at around 5400 rpm

Never the less ... A way to see things here in picture form

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 29, 2009

Just for the heck of it

I put the boost curves of each example side by side

Grady

95Vert383AOD · Mar 29, 2009

Yep this is going to make my go drop some $$$ on a KB. I guess i'm just going to have to get the GT40 intake Ported to work well with my combo. Or maybe i could have it port matched to my Trickflow R lower.

Hef5.0weisen · Mar 29, 2009

Grady,

I have the smaller version, 1500. Out of the box it made 8 psi, maybe I got a freak because it was supposed to be 6. Swapped pulleys and it was up to 10 saw 12, then blew the headgaskets. Another pulley and I'm set at 8 all day, and have been for 3 yrs now, no problems. Helped having a good friend with a bunch of spare parts. Currently stock heads, lower, 19lber's/ FMU, and a 190 fuel pump. Sig has whats coming....

I'll have to let you know how the blower/boost falling off thing goes, I've heard that also. I'll mention my friends car again (89 gt, stock bottom, Eddy heads, a cam, 24lbers, and the same 1500 hundred as I have...he still made 10 psi before and after.....heads and cam. at least thats what the boost gage said. I drove it before and after, very nice. Wasn't my car and I wasn't engaged in this conversation, so I didn't exactly tach it up and hold it there for long (for the sake of preservation) and watch the gages....fast forward to now and I'd be looking at that.

Some KB info; they did make two sizes for the 5.0.... 1.5 and 2.1 (not sure if that;s the exact number but ballpark, I don't have the bigger one) My 1.5 has made 12 psi, but the question arrises of efficiency and heated air temps, the little guy is getting out of its range there. The big one is more efficeint at higher levels, don't know 'em off hand, but its made for higher numbers. As of late, KB no longer offers the 1.5, and this is another dislike about the KB. It is an older piece, design wise. Some of the other guys stuff may be more up to date as far as efficiency goes. The larger blower can be had with the standard manifolds, or the blowzilla/flowzilla setup. BZ/FZ flow more air. Kinda sucks in the intake dept. The systemax I is the hot piece for the standard manifolds, but they're hard to find. Year One has em as the kit (mani, cam, and timing chain for like 800, no thanks) I've heard they need a spacer on the pulley as the lower moves the upper back a millimeter or two, (no experience with that one though). Other hot ticket is the handy work of Tmoss, the option I'm taking. Those are for standard manifolds. Flowzilla uses the gt-40 type. Fox kits can be made to work on the sn-95s, but the fox snout is about 3/4 inch longer than ours, that'll need replaced.

And in case there is any confusion, KBs do not make boost all the time. For instance, cruising down the highway at 75, and 2000 rpm, no boost. But, open the throttle body up and there it is.

I think KB nowadays is more for the mod motors, but hey, they're a business keeping up with the latest stuff. I've watched the 5.0 stuff kinda falloff their website ("switch-chip", the 1.5 blower, the inlet tract they offered), nothing really to say "we no longer support 5.0's" but is what it is.

My 1500 has kept me happy, and I still enjoy it. Hoping it only gets better with what i have sitting in the garage going on soon. We should have had this conversation a year ago, I was in your neighborhood, drove thru and spent the night in Dallas, coming from Ft. Walton Bch ,FL out to Clovis, NM.

99FiveOh · Mar 29, 2009

I really enjoyed my V1 S trim. Was really easy to install and the oil fitting in the pan wasn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. I didn't have a boost gauge for little while after I installed the blower, but I could feel the difference immediately, even in the low end of the RPM range.

Below is a pic (crappy I know ) of my dyno sheet after the tune. I had a stock long block with Eddy perf. intake and Heddmen headers. Stock 3.33" pulley and AFM Power pipe. Not sure about the boost along the curves, but it maxed out at 13 PSI

I am very proud of that dyno sheet and I was very proud of my car. I got compliments on the sound of that blower everywhere I went.

Also something else to think about is traction. Even with the Vortech, I still couldnt' get traction. Heck, most N/A STOCKISH 5.0's have traction problems. Mix in 12 or 13.XX lbs of boost without serious suspension mods, all that power is wasted! Also, it's easier to get out of trouble with a centri. blower because the power doesn't come on too fast. If you get a sign of trouble like detonation, you still have a little time to back out before something bad happens!

I was also really leaning toward a KB, but a good friend sold me his Vortech and I think it was an awsome setup.

Dizzy_ax · Mar 29, 2009

Okay! sorry been busy all day. This was with 42 pound injectors (Because i was going to s/c it and wanted to save time) Same with the 255 in tank fuel pump and a 255 inline. it is a five speed and that was a dyno tune SCT chip, stock clutch 114k on it and thats about it. 373 gears incase that wasnt in there.

The engine falling off and boost along with it would make me hit my head lol...

Also i may add every little thing i do to my car so far after the S/C is making a difference i can feel rather then (I hope this drops E/T) lol

Im going to make a video when i go back to the track of the in car sound(probably not view) and you can hear it rev up/ and possible hear the boost build and i will put when i shift to kind of give you a ref. of when i hit 10 pounds.

Another thing i didnt notice but with my track heat intake they added a spacer! saw this today.

Dizzy_ax · Mar 29, 2009

Just a question! What vac do you run at what RPM/MPH on the freeway?

Pokageek · Mar 29, 2009

"As with the Vortech example
25% of 13.3 psi is 3.33 psi and occurs at NA rpm
50% of 13.3 psi is 6.65 psi and occurs at NA rpm
75% of 13.3 psi is 9.76 psi and occurs at 1900 rpm with 379tq & 138hp

Notice the boost starts to drop at around 5400 rpm"

That's a nice kick in the pants. I'd say thats the way to go if you want a blower and can handle to heat thing. I don't think your car is going to drop off so easily with those afr's on it. Right?

ProKiller · Mar 30, 2009

chiming in late here, but having this vortech for years now with both a 302 and 331, i think you need a KB. Grady who are you trying to fool here, your all about low end power at streetable RPMs. yes a centi makes good numbers but it does take a while to get into comparable boost as the KB. I'm not saying it takes long to make boost, i'm saying to make KB comparable numbers

I understand you want to make an informed decision but the numbers speak for themselves about your passions. get a KB, port the lower, get a different cam, and tune. then drive and enjoy. your not a dyno queen, your a stoplight king.

supercharging whichever way you do it is going to present possible issues. belt slippage, block cracking power, tuning issues, heat soak, crank strain, etc. i could go on for days here. the biggest KB problems are heat and possible oil leaks. the vortechs have the same thing cause we can't run an intercooler. It's all about the tune either way.

95Vert383AOD · Mar 30, 2009

What makes the difference between good and bad turbos??? How fast they spool. Same thing with S/C's. If you want to knock on the door of low RPM boost be prepared. That fatter tq/hp curve = fatter fuel consumption curve. Not enough fuel at 3000rpm? Prepare to lean out.

A KB isn't a magic answer that will make a stock bottom with stock fuel lines live past 550hp when everyone elses motor starts splitting.

Just something about having full boost just before my converter locks up give me that tingly feeling.

I have an AOD Manual valve body. At highway speeds i would have full boost with overdrive off. I spin 2200rpm at 65-70mph. My highway RPM's are pretty similar to those when i had the same trans on my 302.

As far as leaks....increased pressures increase strain on other parts. I think you should properly build your motor before dropping $4000 on a supercharger. Some guys want to skip the "Supporting Parts" So you'll see the guy with a shiny new KB and shiny new valve covers and TB. Then you realize he has Stock Iorn E7 heads that haven't came off the stock bottom end since the car rolled out of production. If this guy told me his engine blew, leaked oil, melted a factory piston etc. i would take it with a grain of salt.

A $4000 KB or Vortech on a bone stock motor is like when folks buy 24" rims that cost more than their vehicle.

Pokageek · Mar 30, 2009

ProKiller said:
chiming in late here, but having this vortech for years now with both a 302 and 331, i think you need a KB. Grady who are you trying to fool here, your all about low end power at streetable RPMs. yes a centi makes good numbers but it does take a while to get into comparable boost as the KB. I'm not saying it takes long to make boost, i'm saying to make KB comparable numbers

I understand you want to make an informed decision but the numbers speak for themselves about your passions. get a KB, port the lower, get a different cam, and tune. then drive and enjoy. your not a dyno queen, your a stoplight king.

supercharging whichever way you do it is going to present possible issues. belt slippage, block cracking power, tuning issues, heat soak, crank strain, etc. i could go on for days here. the biggest KB problems are heat and possible oil leaks. the vortechs have the same thing cause we can't run an intercooler. It's all about the tune either way.

Hopefully he has a forged crank.

final5-0 · Mar 30, 2009

Hef5.0weisen said:
Grady,

I have the smaller version, 1500. Out of the box it made 8 psi, maybe I got a freak because it was supposed to be 6. Swapped pulleys and it was up to 10 saw 12, then blew the headgaskets. Another pulley and I'm set at 8 all day, and have been for 3 yrs now, no problems. Helped having a good friend with a bunch of spare parts. Currently stock heads, lower, 19lber's/ FMU, and a 190 fuel pump. Sig has whats coming....

I'll have to let you know how the blower/boost falling off thing goes, I've heard that also. I'll mention my friends car again (89 gt, stock bottom, Eddy heads, a cam, 24lbers, and the same 1500 hundred as I have...he still made 10 psi before and after.....heads and cam. at least thats what the boost gage said. I drove it before and after, very nice. Wasn't my car and I wasn't engaged in this conversation, so I didn't exactly tach it up and hold it there for long (for the sake of preservation) and watch the gages....fast forward to now and I'd be looking at that.

Some KB info; they did make two sizes for the 5.0.... 1.5 and 2.1 (not sure if that;s the exact number but ballpark, I don't have the bigger one) My 1.5 has made 12 psi, but the question arrises of efficiency and heated air temps, the little guy is getting out of its range there. The big one is more efficeint at higher levels, don't know 'em off hand, but its made for higher numbers. As of late, KB no longer offers the 1.5, and this is another dislike about the KB. It is an older piece, design wise. Some of the other guys stuff may be more up to date as far as efficiency goes. The larger blower can be had with the standard manifolds, or the blowzilla/flowzilla setup. BZ/FZ flow more air. Kinda sucks in the intake dept. The systemax I is the hot piece for the standard manifolds, but they're hard to find. Year One has em as the kit (mani, cam, and timing chain for like 800, no thanks) I've heard they need a spacer on the pulley as the lower moves the upper back a millimeter or two, (no experience with that one though). Other hot ticket is the handy work of Tmoss, the option I'm taking. Those are for standard manifolds. Flowzilla uses the gt-40 type. Fox kits can be made to work on the sn-95s, but the fox snout is about 3/4 inch longer than ours, that'll need replaced.

And in case there is any confusion, KBs do not make boost all the time. For instance, cruising down the highway at 75, and 2000 rpm, no boost. But, open the throttle body up and there it is.

I think KB nowadays is more for the mod motors, but hey, they're a business keeping up with the latest stuff. I've watched the 5.0 stuff kinda falloff their website ("switch-chip", the 1.5 blower, the inlet tract they offered), nothing really to say "we no longer support 5.0's" but is what it is.

My 1500 has kept me happy, and I still enjoy it. Hoping it only gets better with what i have sitting in the garage going on soon. We should have had this conversation a year ago, I was in your neighborhood, drove thru and spent the night in Dallas, coming from Ft. Walton Bch ,FL out to Clovis, NM.

Brian

Thanks for the additional info

OK ... So I now know you got the 1500

As I understand it ... The Blozilla Flozilla setup has the bypass

Again ... I'm pretty sure I've seen the bypass helps with heat

Yes ... I have seen other KB owners say while at cruise or low load
driving conditions ... the boost is not in place

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 30, 2009

The_Mustang said:
I really enjoyed my V1 S trim. Was really easy to install and the oil fitting in the pan wasn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. I didn't have a boost gauge for little while after I installed the blower, but I could feel the difference immediately, even in the low end of the RPM range.

You Bet Your Bottom Dollar You Got Something To Be Proud About :Word:

You know Mark ... I've told quite a few peeps about your combo

Just cram the mix in there and you got over 400 ... tq AND hp

That is alot of boost for a stocker OEM short block

At boost levels that high ... I wonder how long one could keep going
before problems became known

I mean ... It that too much boost for an application somewhere in between
say a daily driver and a weekend toy

Mark or Anybody ...

I'd like to get some thoughts about what is considered an acceptable
range of boost when talking about a Street Car

Grady

The O.G. · Mar 30, 2009

yea ,i guess streetable for a weekend is different than streetable every day

final5-0 · Mar 30, 2009

Pokageek said:
"As with the Vortech example
25% of 13.3 psi is 3.33 psi and occurs at NA rpm
50% of 13.3 psi is 6.65 psi and occurs at NA rpm
75% of 13.3 psi is 9.76 psi and occurs at 1900 rpm with 379tq & 138hp

Notice the boost starts to drop at around 5400 rpm"

That's a nice kick in the pants. I'd say thats the way to go if you want a blower and can handle to heat thing. I don't think your car is going to drop off so easily with those afr's on it. Right?

Keith

About the boost drop off at high rpm

I kinda think a 1500 or maybe even the 1700 might be too small when
you got Aftermarket Aluminum heads such as TFS, AFR, etc.

My thinking is ...
Airflow through the Aftermarket stuff is greater than the OEM stuff

Now this is gonna cause the boost to be smaller due to less restriction

That in turn is gonna tax the blower all the more
thus
The drop off at high rpm cause the blower just can't supply volume needed

Grady

99FiveOh · Mar 30, 2009

final5-0 said:
You Bet Your Bottom Dollar You Got Something To Be Proud About :Word:

You know Mark ... I've told quite a few peeps about your combo

Just cram the mix in there and you got over 400 ... tq AND hp

That is alot of boost for a stocker OEM short block

At boost levels that high ... I wonder how long one could keep going
before problems became known

I mean ... It that too much boost for an application somewhere in between
say a daily driver and a weekend toy

Mark or Anybody ...

I'd like to get some thoughts about what is considered an acceptable
range of boost when talking about a Street Car

Grady

I was wondering all the time just when I was gonna lift the heads on that thing! I beat on it a fair share and the only major problem I had was blow-by. the engine would spray oil all over the place out the dipstick tube. I tried all the fixes I could read about and in reality I probably just needed a fresh motor!

I went to the tuning session expecting 325-360 hp to the tires, but when it belted out 425 HP and equal torque, I was grinning ear to ear! My first question to the tuning guy was, "Are you sure that thing is right?". I could tell from his smile it was right on the money. He was suprised too when I told him it was a stock motor.

I really think the magic was in the intake manifold. I will swear by a good ole Eddy Performer intake!

I probably had 3 grand in my combo after all the supporting fuel mods and such were completed.

Hef5.0weisen · Mar 30, 2009

Grady,

If you haven't looked yet, KB website has a lot on it, to include the typical what if this/that, tech info, etc. Lot of good stuff there.

Also, Lasota racing's website...they put together an nice tech section there for the KB crowd. Lot of what seems to be hard earned tech experience...they're letting the public have it. As I understand it "Don" (I put it in quotes, because i don't personally know him) had a real fast car, with a 1.5. Think he said somewhere, Eddy heads, custom cam, and the 1.5 put him at 11.1...again I think I read that somewhere.

There is a guy on here, think his screen name is KB95cobra, or something to that affect, If i remeber his sig right its something like this; afr 165's, 2031, (big)KB @xxPSI, supporting hardware, tuned....~500/500. Might be worth looking up

Sorry, lot of "I think" going on , know you're looking for facts vs. opinions here. But, I don't see these as challenging anyone's honor..as far as differing opinions go.

One idea I'm toying with is using my old NOS 5115 kit again, but downing it to a 50 shot and putting it on the outlet side of the manifolds, might take care of that heat problem, or a methanol kit, but I already have the 5115. Guess the ultimate goal is to see if i can get the pistons to come through the hood, good reason to build/buy a new hot motor, get a new hood, paint etc

final5-0 · Mar 30, 2009

ProKiller said:
chiming in late here, but having this vortech for years now with both a 302 and 331, i think you need a KB. Grady who are you trying to fool here, your all about low end power at streetable RPMs. yes a centi makes good numbers but it does take a while to get into comparable boost as the KB. I'm not saying it takes long to make boost, i'm saying to make KB comparable numbers

I understand you want to make an informed decision but the numbers speak for themselves about your passions. get a KB, port the lower, get a different cam, and tune. then drive and enjoy. your not a dyno queen, your a stoplight king.

supercharging whichever way you do it is going to present possible issues. belt slippage, block cracking power, tuning issues, heat soak, crank strain, etc. i could go on for days here. the biggest KB problems are heat and possible oil leaks. the vortechs have the same thing cause we can't run an intercooler. It's all about the tune either way.

I gotta step up and say I really appreciate your thoughts here Ryan

We got a Die Hard Vortech Guy here who gives what I see as an unbiased
bit of info

Sure ... I know Vortech ain't the greatest or without its problems
but
I'm determined to dig deep and do some exhaustive research
and
I thought I'd see if some of my SN buds want to come along for the ride

Thats the reason I started this thread
I want to share what I find and present it as simply as I can for all to see

Honestly ... I do feel I got pretty good general knowledge about both
types of blowers ... but ... I just want to get MORE informed at this time

And Yes ... KB ain't the greatest either ... cause like you said Ryan
It has got its share of problems

I like your last sentence Ryan It's all about the tune either way.

Yes ... If a fellow can obtain hard data about what is going on
then
If he can optimize the pcm for those conditions ......

Well ... That is all I did with my NA combo
therefore
Even though I've never done it with a blower ... I'm not too worried about it

Now ... Here are Q's I REALLY wanna ask about using a Vortech blower

If you want boost to come on quicker .......

1) Is the SQ with its higher step up ratio gonna make much difference over
the older units that make so much racket ... I'm just not a fan of all that
thrashing sound

2) If you did a pulley to quicken the boost ... what would you do at the higher
rpm levels when too much boost will be present ... maybe a blow off valve
like a turbo

Grady

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