Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

final5-0 · Mar 30, 2009

Hef5.0weisen said:
Grady,

If you haven't looked yet, KB website has a lot on it, to include the typical what if this/that, tech info, etc. Lot of good stuff there.

Also, Lasota racing's website...they put together an nice tech section there for the KB crowd. Lot of what seems to be hard earned tech experience...they're letting the public have it. As I understand it "Don" (I put it in quotes, because i don't personally know him) had a real fast car, with a 1.5. Think he said somewhere, Eddy heads, custom cam, and the 1.5 put him at 11.1...again I think I read that somewhere.

There is a guy on here, think his screen name is KB95cobra, or something to that affect, If i remeber his sig right its something like this; afr 165's, 2031, (big)KB @xxPSI, supporting hardware, tuned....~500/500. Might be worth looking up

Sorry, lot of "I think" going on , know you're looking for facts vs. opinions here. But, I don't see these as challenging anyone's honor..as far as differing opinions go.

One idea I'm toying with is using my old NOS 5115 kit again, but downing it to a 50 shot and putting it on the outlet side of the manifolds, might take care of that heat problem, or a methanol kit, but I already have the 5115. Guess the ultimate goal is to see if i can get the pistons to come through the hood, good reason to build/buy a new hot motor, get a new hood, paint etc

Yes ... When it comes to KB's ... Don is the man

It was years ago ... but ... I used to lurk on the forums Don was active
on when he had his 1500

He did later step up to the larger ... is it the 2200

I still got tons and tons of his old posts he did which I'll break out if I go in
that direction

Thanks about the info on going to KB

Who would'a thunk it ... Go to the source if you want some info

Grady

99FiveOh · Mar 30, 2009

I believe there was an article in a MMFF or 5.0 mag where they used a wastegate or something along those lines in a centri. blower setup. And I believe they were trying to acheive the same objective: Smaller pulley, sooner boost, but not got overboard up high.

Maybe someone with an extensive collection of these mags can dig it up and enlighten us!

Pokageek · Mar 30, 2009

Sheesh this thread makes me want to go out and buy one.

Thanks for the info on the blower output. As I understand it, if you push more air then you are going to have to get a blower that BLOWS more air or it ain't gonna do anything. But then you run into having too much power for that stock bottom end.

Since I have taken an interest in your thread and your success, I would look for the following on that site if you aren't already. My apologies if I am overlapping:

1. How much is too much for the crank? And dial it in under a few ponies under that.
2. This prolly also depends on how many miles you drive per year - 15k? Like people are saying, street ? weekend? or what?
3. Is the tweecer really up to it? or does everyone use more expensive tuners/puters to get the job done? I used the sct for a while but it is NOTHING like the PMS. It is a night and day difference in my car!
4. Would selling the AFR's and going e7's give you more $$ to spend and put you right on your mark WITHOUT adding a 2.2 that is going to cost more $$ and go to waste not using it to its potential? Just a thought.:SNSign:
5. Hey now I have seen intercoolers on subarus..atop the engine. Could you somehow be different and have one made for your KB to help with heat (in addition to the proper tune?). I mean, I made an rx7 intercooler work with my "undisclosed" car.

[edit] - oh yea ,the added weight of the iron tho...hmm..

removed below cuz off topic.

Hef5.0weisen · Mar 30, 2009

5. Hey now I have seen intercoolers on subarus..atop the engine. Could you somehow be different and have one made for your KB to help with heat (in addition to the proper tune?). I mean, I made an rx7 intercooler work with my "undisclosed" car.

While ago there was a guy on the "other" site that made an intercooler for a KB. Lot of work he did. Cut the outlet manifold open, welded a block off plate in there. Routed the direct output to the IC, then back to the other side of the blocked off manifold, which fed the lower. Pretty impressive and hard core. Don't recall any numbers associated with it.

Out on a limb here, but one of those old BBK "instachargers" might be a good find. They're a twin screw type blower (ie instant boost), but don't sit on the lower, thy're ducted to it. If you were intuitive you could somehow slap an intercooler in there, that'd be a fun project if you were into it, probably have some good (ie:fun) results with it.

Those Vortech numbers are impressive, stock everything and a blower= 400+/-
I might have to find me a dyno one day, anyone know of anything close to Clovis, New Mexico. Nevermind, there is nothing close to Clovis, except cows

Black Stampede · Mar 30, 2009

In regards to how much boost is reasonable for a street car thats kind of relative since under normal driving conditions it shouldn't be in boost.

Dizzy_ax · Mar 31, 2009

I filled in the data you asked for on page two but it got swamped pretty fast ;p From where we were at together minus your TQ number vs mine the difference is pretty scary lol.... my 0-90 feels like my old 0-60 and how fast i go from a stop to 120 is pretty much useless now, id much rather putt around and make the S/C noise. Funny the faster my car gets the slower i drive it. Either way you go and what you figure out, there is no bad boost ;p once you get into the boost, if its at 2k or 2-6k its a feeling that makes you smile pretty big

The KB makes a nice whine that would probably never get old and dont use my HP/ TQ as a reference! this was a very safe tune with stock PSI from the blower. Also the procharger intercooler works with the vortech S/C and i have seen so many DIY intercoolers out there that work pretty good, but everyone with one or putting money into such a thing is running more then 8 pounds lol.

I have lots to say but nothing hard data like you want ;p whatever you do end up choosing it'd be kind of hard to be mad at lol. But right before i picked up my car i was in a 4cyl turbo car making 350+hp and i have to say...one of the most fun cars i've got to drive and the BOV never gets old...just too much fun lol.

final5-0 · Mar 31, 2009

Pokageek said:
Sheesh this thread makes me want to go out and buy one.

Thanks for the info on the blower output. As I understand it, if you push more air then you are going to have to get a blower that BLOWS more air or it ain't gonna do anything. But then you run into having too much power for that stock bottom end.

Since I have taken an interest in your thread and your success, I would look for the following on that site if you aren't already. My apologies if I am overlapping:

1. How much is too much for the crank? And dial it in under a few ponies under that.
2. This prolly also depends on how many miles you drive per year - 15k? Like people are saying, street ? weekend? or what?
3. Is the tweecer really up to it? or does everyone use more expensive tuners/puters to get the job done? I used the sct for a while but it is NOTHING like the PMS. It is a night and day difference in my car!
4. Would selling the AFR's and going e7's give you more $$ to spend and put you right on your mark WITHOUT adding a 2.2 that is going to cost more $$ and go to waste not using it to its potential? Just a thought.:SNSign:
5. Hey now I have seen intercoolers on subarus..atop the engine. Could you somehow be different and have one made for your KB to help with heat (in addition to the proper tune?). I mean, I made an rx7 intercooler work with my "undisclosed" car.

[edit] - oh yea ,the added weight of the iron tho...hmm..

removed below cuz off topic.

Well Keith

1) I know the limitations of the OEM block and I won't push beyond

I mean ... 400 or a bit more is a pretty good step up from 300

Since I'm gonna be at that range and keep the tune very safe
I'm not really worried about the block or its parts within

2) I don't drive ... as my daughter calls the car ... "Old Man Red"
all that much

3) Sure the Tweecer is more than capable

The real Question is .....
Is that hick Texan who found a laptop gonna be capable

4) Yes I could sell the AFR's ... but ... OEM iron heads all have such thin decks
All Aluminum heads have much thicker decks
I'll most likely just keep my 165's

5) I'd think rigging up an KB/IC on a SBF would be mega bucks

Yes ... Lots of things to consider
When one steps up to the next level of go fast

Kinda like moving up to a big Windsor

Grady

Pokageek · Mar 31, 2009

Good points. I forgot about the thinner decks too. You think IRON sounds like its stronger but its not, lol. Sounds like you got a lot worked out already.

final5-0 · Mar 31, 2009

Good ... Good ... Stuff here guys

Over the next few days ....
I'm gonna put up some data with ...........

Dizzy_ax's two dyno pulls

Charts showing my current combo with various blown combos with
a focus on the Vortech

Yes ... KB has lots of low end torque
but
I think peeps are gonna see interesting stuff from the charts

I STILL wanna talk to peeeps about Vortech tips and tricks

Specifically ... if you can bring in the boost sooner
Is it enough to even make a noticable difference

Anyway ... I think we have got started on some good discussion
between the Vortech and KB

It is my intent that WE ALL gain some kind of knowledge by looking
at the possibilities and talking to those who have had some
hands on with these blowers

Grady

BlackVert · Mar 31, 2009

For cooling a KB based setup, methanol injection is the way to go. Not only does it cool the intake air, it also richens the mixture making it safer and allowing more spark

ProKiller · Mar 31, 2009

final5-0 said:
Now ... Here are Q's I REALLY wanna ask about using a Vortech blower

If you want boost to come on quicker .......

1) Is the SQ with its higher step up ratio gonna make much difference over
the older units that make so much racket ... I'm just not a fan of all that
thrashing sound

2) If you did a pulley to quicken the boost ... what would you do at the higher
rpm levels when too much boost will be present ... maybe a blow off valve
like a turbo

Grady

1.) i'm not a fan of the v1s either. mine's the v2sq. but back to your sentiment. i never really thought about trying to get the boost to come in sooner. here's some data on the various vortechs

Version Blower=Max CFM-HP up to Max-Boost (PSI)-Max Impeller (RPM)-Max Effeciency Impeller (RPM)-Adiabatic Efficiency %-Step Up Ratio-Engine RPM for Max Impeller Speed (calculated)-Engine RPM for Max Impeller Efficiency (calculated)
V-1 S-Trim=1000-680-20-50,000-45,000-72-3.45-5797-5217
V-2 SQ-Trim=1000-680-20-50,000-45,000-72-3.61-5540-4986
V-1 T-Trim 1200 825 26 55,000 52,000 73 3.45 6377 6029
V-2 T-Trim 1200 825 26 55,000 52,000 73 3.61 6094 5762
V-7 JT-Trim 1450 1000 27 60,000 55,000 75 3.45 6957 6377
V-7 YSI-Trim 1600 1200 30 65,000 60,000 78 3.45 7536 6957

note everything else is equal except for the step-up ratio, which will change your engine rpm impeller speed and efficiency. the v2 reaches it's max sooner than the v1. So being as they are linear, the v2 should also come into boost sooner. putting a smaller pulley on it will push more boost sooner but will top out the impeller sooner as well.

That's currently my issue since switching to a 2.95 pulley from 3.33. It effectively moved the max impeller RPM from 6500 to 5800 rpm. I haven't driven it much as its still been in the garage for the most part but i'll let you know my interpretations when i take it out.

2.) I found this to give you an idea of what you can do with a blow off valve
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/236578/5
but I don't see it being needed, especially considering you can just pull timing out of the engine at the higher RPMs to prevent any detonation. Besides, the vortech kits come with a bypass valve which is essentially the same thing as a blow off.

1slow95 · Mar 31, 2009

How about an M90 from a SuperCoupe or GTP? If you get one of the later models with the coated rotors and have it ported you should be able to get close to 400rwhp.

Just an idea....

final5-0 · Mar 31, 2009

I finally found the time I needed to extrapolate the numerical values from the
dyno pull Jeff (Dizzy_ax) posted up earlier in this thread

I put them up along side of his previous NA combo for comparison

Grady

final5-0 · Mar 31, 2009

I put my little NA combo next to Jeff's Vortech combo

My intent was not to make me look bad as it does in fact look
but
I wanted to focus on the torque curves of the two combos

Notice at 3500 rpm, the Vortech reallys starts to shine with 21 more pounds
and just grows as the rpm climbs

anyway ... a chance to see things in a different way

Grady

Dizzy_ax · Mar 31, 2009

Hey grady, i know how much you love graphs ;p I may pop it back on the dyno here in a few weeks because im going to get it track tuned to clean up some problems i may be having and to get that TQ out of the 3's and its free! would be fun to see other safe tunes and what they can push out of this combo without pushing too hard.

Pokageek · Apr 1, 2009

Well, you are right with him Grady until ...roughly 3750rpm then he goes BYE BYE

Do you want to wait until 3500-3750 to feel any difference though?

Black Stampede · Apr 1, 2009

Pokageek said:
Do you want to wait until 3500-3750 to feel any difference though?

Depending on goals, alot of people would.

95Vert383AOD · Apr 1, 2009

Black Stampede said:
Depending on goals, alot of people would.

Maybe when you're building a track only vehicle. But most general street driving is under 3500-3700. Then again you could be that guy i see staging at red lights, revving to 3500 waiting for the light to turn green.

Pokageek · Apr 1, 2009

95Vert383AOD said:
Maybe when you're building a track only vehicle. But most general street driving is under 3500-3700. Then again you could be that guy i see staging at red lights, revving to 3500 waiting for the light to turn green.

LOL. Envisioning that cracked me up.

I think he may have missed this quote earlier:
"i think you need a KB. Grady who are you trying to fool here, your all about low end power at streetable RPMs. yes a centi makes .."

What I mean is that Grady no likee waiting for power.

final5-0 · Apr 1, 2009

I guess some are still interested here as I've seen the view count jump
up a bit

So I thought I'd put up a KB that was bolted on top of a 5.0

I mean ... it might be a bit more apples to apples if we did so

I've put this one up before but for those who might be new and all

This fellow is Paul Riva's cousin and Paul has stated the car is quick

anyhow ... I decided we could look at Jeff's (Dizzy_ax) combo and
Matt's (KB) combo together

As you can see with the info I provided they both got
OEM Block
AFR 165's
Aftermarket intake
Shorty headers
Chip Tune
T-5 trans

Yes ... I know the cams are different and Matt has a bit of porting
but
The match up is better than using a Mod Motor :Word:

Comments ... Questions ... Thoughts

Feel free to let em fly

Grady

Let's Talk Combo Type Choices!

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