Lightning motor into my 99 GT

[Rickey_Bobby]

So I have come to terms with the fact that my engine is on the way out. I was looking at all the choices I had for a motor and I have decided to go with the 5.4L

...On with the questions...
How much power can a stock 1999-2000 lightning bottom end handle?
Stock boost pressure?
Max boost it can handle?
What is it's redline?
Will my PI heads from my 4.6 bolt on?
Will my tranny bolt up? (TR-3650) and will this tranny last?
Do I need a new flywheel?
Do I need a new clutch?
Do the motor mounts line up the same as the 4.6L
What extra parts would I need to take a 5.4L shortblock, add the heads and accessories from my 4.6L, and drop it in the car?


Oh yea, and does the damn thing even fit?

I'm looking at either this: http://www.karkraft.com/short_blocks.htm
or this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/99-0...015QQitemZ250040801199QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Would like to buy just the bottom end.

 

[the98stang]

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=600504&highlight=5.4+conversion


Billfisher:

"i talked to a racer that is driving a 8500 rpm 5.4 4v. he broke the hell out of a new t-56 and eaton posi in one run. as far a money. sullivan is for carbs. it is also tall as heck. 12000 dollars... here we go

hoses
radiator
harness changes
head work
forged bottom end(or blow up after 5500)
oil pan
exhaust headers
intake
intake elbow
TB
mass air sensor 90mm
injectors
fuel rails
fuel lines
hydraulic lines
PWM controller for proportional braking
remote solenoid operated braking.
fabricator to do brake system. - brake by wire
electrician to do COP conversion.
if not then bracket fab for ignition
adjustable regulator
injectors 24lb or larger
fuel pump in tank to keep up
cams (factory makes torque) you need hp
cowl hood.
labor for all the fabbing.
if you have to rebuild

the only person i know that has done it spent 12,000 for parts to turn it 7500 rpms.

if you stick to 5500 then less. i assumed you want hp. just because it has 4v doesn't mean it will make power with what is essentially 4.6 4v cams. 300 hp is not a lot for 5.4 4v. cams alone are $1000.00

sullivan is also just for HP. it won't make much at the bottom. even though these things make great torque they can't avoid throwing away 50 lb-ft with an intake like that at the bottom end.

i am probably going to but another motor to put forged stuff in. and head work.

1800.00 forged stuff
head work 2000.00
cams 900.00
hood 550.00 for you
motor 2900.00
your 3650 will die quickly.
your rear end will also.

i am going to take it easy until i replace them.

all that aside you can make 550 hp easy with the right parts."

As you can see, this is a HUGE job that takes lots of time and money. I would suggest a VT,MPH, or MMR shortblock. Then slap on your stock heads, and you have a nice forged motor ready for boost!

 

[thomas91169]

or a modular 5.0 forged stroker kit. gain a bit of displacement and not have to deal with the PITA of a 5.4 swap.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

Hrm... custom brake system.... little more work then I wanna do...

 

[Matt's 03 GT]

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=600504&highlight=5.4+conversion


Billfisher:

"i talked to a racer that is driving a 8500 rpm 5.4 4v. he broke the hell out of a new t-56 and eaton posi in one run. as far a money. sullivan is for carbs. it is also tall as heck. 12000 dollars... here we go

hoses
radiator
harness changes
head work
forged bottom end(or blow up after 5500)
oil pan
exhaust headers
intake
intake elbow
TB
mass air sensor 90mm
injectors
fuel rails
fuel lines
hydraulic lines
PWM controller for proportional braking
remote solenoid operated braking.
fabricator to do brake system. - brake by wire
electrician to do COP conversion.
if not then bracket fab for ignition
adjustable regulator
injectors 24lb or larger
fuel pump in tank to keep up
cams (factory makes torque) you need hp
cowl hood.
labor for all the fabbing.
if you have to rebuild

the only person i know that has done it spent 12,000 for parts to turn it 7500 rpms.

if you stick to 5500 then less. i assumed you want hp. just because it has 4v doesn't mean it will make power with what is essentially 4.6 4v cams. 300 hp is not a lot for 5.4 4v. cams alone are $1000.00

sullivan is also just for HP. it won't make much at the bottom. even though these things make great torque they can't avoid throwing away 50 lb-ft with an intake like that at the bottom end.

i am probably going to but another motor to put forged stuff in. and head work.

1800.00 forged stuff
head work 2000.00
cams 900.00
hood 550.00 for you
motor 2900.00
your 3650 will die quickly.
your rear end will also.

i am going to take it easy until i replace them.

all that aside you can make 550 hp easy with the right parts."

As you can see, this is a HUGE job that takes lots of time and money. I would suggest a VT,MPH, or MMR shortblock. Then slap on your stock heads, and you have a nice forged motor ready for boost!

Nice work. I always marvel at the complexities of changing a motor in these cars. A good forged bottom end on the 4.6 can support a bunch of power... why try to reinvent the wheel? If it ain't broke...

 

[jstreet0204]

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=600504&highlight=5.4+conversion


Billfisher:

"i talked to a racer that is driving a 8500 rpm 5.4 4v. he broke the hell out of a new t-56 and eaton posi in one run. as far a money. sullivan is for carbs. it is also tall as heck. 12000 dollars... here we go

hoses
radiator
harness changes
head work
forged bottom end(or blow up after 5500)
oil pan
exhaust headers
intake
intake elbow
TB
mass air sensor 90mm
injectors
fuel rails
fuel lines
hydraulic lines
PWM controller for proportional braking
remote solenoid operated braking.
fabricator to do brake system. - brake by wire
electrician to do COP conversion.
if not then bracket fab for ignition
adjustable regulator
injectors 24lb or larger
fuel pump in tank to keep up
cams (factory makes torque) you need hp
cowl hood.
labor for all the fabbing.
if you have to rebuild

the only person i know that has done it spent 12,000 for parts to turn it 7500 rpms.

if you stick to 5500 then less. i assumed you want hp. just because it has 4v doesn't mean it will make power with what is essentially 4.6 4v cams. 300 hp is not a lot for 5.4 4v. cams alone are $1000.00

sullivan is also just for HP. it won't make much at the bottom. even though these things make great torque they can't avoid throwing away 50 lb-ft with an intake like that at the bottom end.

i am probably going to but another motor to put forged stuff in. and head work.

1800.00 forged stuff
head work 2000.00
cams 900.00
hood 550.00 for you
motor 2900.00
your 3650 will die quickly.
your rear end will also.

i am going to take it easy until i replace them.

all that aside you can make 550 hp easy with the right parts."

As you can see, this is a HUGE job that takes lots of time and money. I would suggest a VT,MPH, or MMR shortblock. Then slap on your stock heads, and you have a nice forged motor ready for boost!

That is for a 5.4 4 valve. Lightning motor is a two valve. 5.4 two valves have been transplanted with not much more than a modified mid-pipe to allow for the extra width, and of coarse you'd need a big ass cowl hood.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

I actually found a local guy today with a 5.4 in a 2000 gt. He said the only thing he changed was his hood, bigger clutch, and X-pipe.

...so how much power can a stock lightning bottom end handle?

 

[Matt's 03 GT]

If it is that easy why don't more people do it? What is the downside to this swap?

Is the lightning block the same basic block as the 5.4 in the trucks? If it is I would think you could get a great deal on the motor and have a bunch of torque for cheap!!

 

[jstreet0204]

I actually found a local guy today with a 5.4 in a 2000 gt. He said the only thing he changed was his hood, bigger clutch, and X-pipe.

...so how much power can a stock lightning bottom end handle?

A guy I know here has a whipple upgrade on his lightning pushing 550rwhp. He's been told that he is pushing the limit though. I don't think the lightning motors are built quite as strong as the cobra motors, but I'm not sure where they fall short. Maybe someone else knows the specifics on the internals.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

I don't know why people don't do it more. Probably because they hear a lot of "IT WONT WORK" rumors. There are a lot of things like that. I'm pushing 468rwhp on a stock 4.6 when I was told time and again that over 400rwhp would kill my motor in a month, especially how I drive. It's been going for over a year now and has 95K miles on it.

This place sells the lightning shortblock.
http://www.karkraft.com/short_blocks.htm
It has a forged crank, and forged pistons, but still has the ****ty rods like normal 4.6's. So I would venture to say their HP limit is identical to the 4.6 as the rods are nearly the same strength.
But a good set of rods + 5.4 block could sustain that same HP as a fully built 4.6 I would amagine. And would cost in total about $2,000.
Thats $1,500 less than a built 4.6 SB and has 51 more cubic inches of displacement.

I'm seeing no down side to this....

and BTW, Sarasota Ford confirmed with me today that all the accessories will bolt up (including the heads) and all I would need is an intake manifold and serpentine belt to fit the 5.4 as the taller deck height moves the heads farther apart.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

A friend of mine has had and raced two of them and he said that about 450 rwhp is as far as he would push his keeping it same and reliable.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

Thanks for the info.
I just did some seardching and found that I can build a fully forged 5.4 shortblock for $1,700.

Block $500 http://www.karkraft.com/bare_blocks.htm

Pistons and H beam Rods w/ ARP bolts (forged) $840 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-4-...007QQitemZ170002914279QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Clevite main and rod bearings $75 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=140021528994&rd=1&rd=1

5.4L Forged steel Crank $90 http://www.karkraft.com/modular_parts.htm

High Volume Oil pump ~ $200 (havn't found one yet.)

TOTAL: $1705

Bring on the nonbelivers!

~~~~~~~~QUESTIONS~~~~~~~~
Anyone know where I can get an oil pump for the 5.4L?

Are 4.6 and 5.4 water pumps the same?

Where can I get 5.4 timing chains and the other parts I would need under the timing cover?

Will my 4.6L harmonic balancer fit?

Will my timing chain gear off of my 4.6L crank fit on the 5.4L crank?

Any suggestions on some kick a$$ head gaskets?

Good place to get 5.4L ARP head bolts?

Any aftermarket 5.4L intakes? Or a place to get a stock 5.4L intake that can use the mustang throttle body?

 

[04YELLOWGT]

Are you doing the build or is some one doing it for you? Also its going to be alot more the 1705 after you add in all the little extra parts (gaskets, head studs, oil pump ect). Dont forget about the machine work needed on the block and how much its gonna cost to get the internals installed in the block.

I think a VT Stroker would be cheaper and just as good.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

Block is brand new....no machining needed
Pistons are standard size
Putting together a motor is easier than installing one. I have done several in various cars. It isn't a dark art that only a special few in this world can do.
The $1700 includes the oil pump
Gaskets are not included

All in all I can do this for about $2,000-$2,200 easily. (I do all my own work)
VT's forged 5.4L shortblock (without oil pump, and the above included accessories I have in my price) is $4395 http://www.vtengines.com/low_engines_shortblocks.htm

For that price I could have a Twin 5.4L powered mustang

No offence to anyone at all, but something I have noticed about mustangs I don't understand...
I used to be into the first gen AWD eclipses before selling my AWD and getting my stang. There were never HP "limits" and many people rebuilt their own engines, made their own combo's of parts, and ended up with a daily driver that would lay consistent low 11's with a race weight of 3,300lbs.
Now with mustangs, Everyone seems extremely scared to build a motor, or do a mod that is considered out of the box because the common thinking is "Just pay someone else lots of $$ and it will work. This is the only way to do it." When in reality, the things you pay these people to do arn't that hard.
Like putting together a motor... Check clearances, torque to the right specs, and a basic knowledge and common sense of engines and your set.
The first motor I built was a 4G63 out of a 1993 eclipse.
didn't even use plastiguage... Threw in some new bearings, kept the stock rods, and had the block bored at NAPA for some wiseco pistons. Filed my own rings, and bolted it together.
The engine was wound to 8,000 rpm on a daily basis and made about 380HP to all 4 wheels (T4 turbo @23psi). The thing is still running today. All this from a guy that doesn't get paid $100/hr to build motors.

So why all this "pay a pro" talk with stangs? Just wondering...

 

[mineralgray2002]

I'd say go with a cobra motor and not a 5.4l. I have one in my truck, i know its 4x4 and heavy as hell, but my 4.6 seemed to run alot stronger than my 5.4l. They rev extremely slow in my opinion and mine redlines at like 5k. IMO go with cobra motor and forget a lightning, more power to be found from a cobra

 

[billfisher]

the lightning motor is an ok choice. the bottom end is no stronger than any other. you need forgings...period. as for fit, it will fit as you say with modified mid-pipe, but a lightning motor WILL sit higher than any hood. the inlet will poke out, but if you don't care , then do it. with forgings and higher boost it will be a brawler.

the drivetrain will need strengthing. all of it. 505 lb-ft is stock flywheel torque. your tranny,driveshaft,rear end, and suspension mounting points need fixing. the lightning uses an E4OD tranny. that's the same one that turbo-diesels use. you tranny will not take it for long. viper t-56 or bettr for manual, or any auto built for it.


the swap isn't an issue, but the rest is. enjoy

 

[billfisher]

Block is brand new....no machining needed
Pistons are standard size
Putting together a motor is easier than installing one. I have done several in various cars. It isn't a dark art that only a special few in this world can do.
The $1700 includes the oil pump
Gaskets are not included

All in all I can do this for about $2,000-$2,200 easily. (I do all my own work)
VT's forged 5.4L shortblock (without oil pump, and the above included accessories I have in my price) is $4395 http://www.vtengines.com/low_engines_shortblocks.htm

For that price I could have a Twin 5.4L powered mustang

No offence to anyone at all, but something I have noticed about mustangs I don't understand...
I used to be into the first gen AWD eclipses before selling my AWD and getting my stang. There were never HP "limits" and many people rebuilt their own engines, made their own combo's of parts, and ended up with a daily driver that would lay consistent low 11's with a race weight of 3,300lbs.
Now with mustangs, Everyone seems extremely scared to build a motor, or do a mod that is considered out of the box because the common thinking is "Just pay someone else lots of $$ and it will work. This is the only way to do it." When in reality, the things you pay these people to do arn't that hard.
Like putting together a motor... Check clearances, torque to the right specs, and a basic knowledge and common sense of engines and your set.
The first motor I built was a 4G63 out of a 1993 eclipse.
didn't even use plastiguage... Threw in some new bearings, kept the stock rods, and had the block bored at NAPA for some wiseco pistons. Filed my own rings, and bolted it together.
The engine was wound to 8,000 rpm on a daily basis and made about 380HP to all 4 wheels (T4 turbo @23psi). The thing is still running today. All this from a guy that doesn't get paid $100/hr to build motors.

So why all this "pay a pro" talk with stangs? Just wondering...

you really don't get it. this in't a weak little 2.0 in an eclipse with 380 rwhp(bullcrap) with 140lb-ft at 10,000 rpm. these crates make torque. there is no worries to 425 rwhp, but after that and rpm's they can't take it. and there is no cheap 380 rwhp eclipse out there. stinkin turbo,exhaut,pcm,blow-off,driveline,brake,clutch kits cost a bazillion dollars alone.

the rods aren't designed for that. but... a 325rwhp stang will run 11.90's with the right stuff and weigth reduction. you go ahead and try putting together a motor enough time without miking the clearances and BOOM. i'm quite sure you can do it. most people these days have 0(zero) engine building talent, so they pay. i have been building ford,chevy,dodge,imports,VW since 1984 and i would get Al Pappito to build my 5.4 7200 rpm short block, becaue the piston speed exceeds formula 1 and just 1(one) millisecond of oil wipe on a cylinder, or bearing contact from wrong chamfering of the main oil holes and BOOM, there goes my expensive motor. enjoy your project, but get advice and/or help before you tear it up.


if not, then so what , it isn't my money. be innovative, but not foolish. i ask a lot of questions from the guys that are doing all the things you read about in those magazines. they are the experts.


i applaud you for your "450+" hp, but in my own club we have had 425rwhp motor blow. all it takes is one ping or leandition and it blows. i have seen it with my own eyes, he boosted to 12psi. and it was over. nearly all of the rods bent or broke. i'd like to see yours dyno with my own eyes. no BS flag, but others have not done so well, and it's bad advice to tell them otherwise.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

Block is brand new....no machining needed
Pistons are standard size
Putting together a motor is easier than installing one. I have done several in various cars. It isn't a dark art that only a special few in this world can do.
The $1700 includes the oil pump
Gaskets are not included

All in all I can do this for about $2,000-$2,200 easily. (I do all my own work)
VT's forged 5.4L shortblock (without oil pump, and the above included accessories I have in my price) is $4395 http://www.vtengines.com/low_engines_shortblocks.htm

For that price I could have a Twin 5.4L powered mustang

No offence to anyone at all, but something I have noticed about mustangs I don't understand...
I used to be into the first gen AWD eclipses before selling my AWD and getting my stang. There were never HP "limits" and many people rebuilt their own engines, made their own combo's of parts, and ended up with a daily driver that would lay consistent low 11's with a race weight of 3,300lbs.
Now with mustangs, Everyone seems extremely scared to build a motor, or do a mod that is considered out of the box because the common thinking is "Just pay someone else lots of $$ and it will work. This is the only way to do it." When in reality, the things you pay these people to do arn't that hard.
Like putting together a motor... Check clearances, torque to the right specs, and a basic knowledge and common sense of engines and your set.
The first motor I built was a 4G63 out of a 1993 eclipse.
didn't even use plastiguage... Threw in some new bearings, kept the stock rods, and had the block bored at NAPA for some wiseco pistons. Filed my own rings, and bolted it together.
The engine was wound to 8,000 rpm on a daily basis and made about 380HP to all 4 wheels (T4 turbo @23psi). The thing is still running today. All this from a guy that doesn't get paid $100/hr to build motors.

So why all this "pay a pro" talk with stangs? Just wondering...

Just because a block is brand new absolutely does not mean it doesn't have to be machined. You need to have the cylinder bores checked for roundness, roughness average finish, concentricity, and tolerance. Then you need to have the main bores checked as well. More times than none, the new blocks will need a align hone....especially if you are going to use ARP studs. New blocks have the main bores bored and honed with OEM main cap bolts in place. ARP main studs will distort the block's main webs differently than the OEM main cap bolts. So the align hone must be performed with torque plates in place, the main caps properly registered and fastened down with the ARP studs at their proper torque.

The new blocks are simply manufactured to a SAE spec for that particular motor. They have no idea what kind of ring you are going to run. You must have the proper cylinder finish and proper cross hatch angle in respect to the ring you will be using. Then you must also ensure the deck's are square. The only way to do this is with the parts you will be using being measured and indexed. This "squaring" process is when you make both deck heights symmetrically perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline. To do this properly you must index the stroke, rod lengths and centerline, and wrist pin heights. Obviously this cannot be done finitely by the block manufacturer, but must be done by you.

These are just a FEW of the many things that are involved in just the block prep. Then you have the assembly….. bearing clearances, rod bolt stretch, indexing the main and rod journals, ring end gap geometry, ring land vertical clearances, piston to camshaft clearances, and so on and so on and so on. It is a highly detailed and involved process that is NOT for the do-it-yourselfer. Also if you go with an aluminum block, all of these measurements and tolerances become much more critical due to the nature of aluminum.

When you add up all the tooling and machinery involved to PROPERLY prep and assemble a shortblock, you are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment. I guarantee that you do not have a Sunnen SV-200 sitting in your garage.

Factory 4.6 motors have a 0.012” piston to deck clearance, and 5.4 motors have a 0.118” piston to deck clearance. You can additionally raise the compression on the 5.4 by eliminating some piston to deck clearance if you wish. 5.4’s love to have the compression height tightened up.

To properly prep and assemble a shortblock, it should left to be done by no other than the pros. If not you are simply selling yourself short.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

you really don't get it. this in't a weak little 2.0 in an eclipse with 380 rwhp(bullcrap) with 140lb-ft at 10,000 rpm. these crates make torque. there is no worries to 425 rwhp, but after that and rpm's they can't take it. and there is no cheap 380 rwhp eclipse out there. stinkin turbo,exhaut,pcm,blow-off,driveline,brake,clutch kits cost a bazillion dollars alone.

the rods aren't designed for that. but... a 325rwhp stang will run 11.90's with the right stuff and weigth reduction. you go ahead and try putting together a motor enough time without miking the clearances and BOOM. i'm quite sure you can do it. most people these days have 0(zero) engine building talent, so they pay. i have been building ford,chevy,dodge,imports,VW since 1984 and i would get Al Pappito to build my 5.4 7200 rpm short block, becaue the piston speed exceeds formula 1 and just 1(one) millisecond of oil wipe on a cylinder, or bearing contact from wrong chamfering of the main oil holes and BOOM, there goes my expensive motor. enjoy your project, but get advice and/or help before you tear it up.


if not, then so what , it isn't my money. be innovative, but not foolish. i ask a lot of questions from the guys that are doing all the things you read about in those magazines. they are the experts.


i applaud you for your "450+" hp, but in my own club we have had 425rwhp motor blow. all it takes is one ping or leandition and it blows. i have seen it with my own eyes, he boosted to 12psi. and it was over. nearly all of the rods bent or broke. i'd like to see yours dyno with my own eyes. no BS flag, but others have not done so well, and it's bad advice to tell them otherwise.

I am planning on going with a viper t56.
As for my mustang and its power output, I am aware that other have died at lower power levels, I also know a guy that tossed a rod on a stock 99 cobra. Did your guy that killed his motor at 12 psi have a good tune? intercooler? supporting fuel system? there are so many factors that dictate weather or not you will succeed, one of which is just plain luck. And I run 10psi with a LARGE compressor (t-70) if I were to run 10 psi on say a vortech v-2, I would be getting about 75% the VOLUME of air at the same psi. PSI does not = power. Air volume does. And a large turbo affords me a little mor leway than said vortech.

As for the weak dsm motor... tell me how 250hp per liter is weak. (max stock bottom end is around 500hp on dsm) Do that on a 4.6 with just new pistons and a turbo. That would be 1150HP. I havn't seen much of that. And I made 348ft/lbs at the wheels at 5,600 rpm. STOCK driveline less the centerforce clutch. There is NO aftermarket driveline crap for these cars. Everything is a back yard creation by everyone running under 11sec. My turbo was a grand, headers I made, wastegate was $300, And I used the stock 1G BOV as it is VERY good. (I'm using a dsm BOV on my stang)
Here are some pix of my setup, I will put the dyno chart up as soon as I scan it. Just remember, I didn't come here to argue what car is better, or insult mustangs (remember I own one) I was simply asking why the school of thought is so different.

As for the 5.4, I will be purchasing the block and building it myself. Obviously, I will mic the cylinders and check all specs BEFORE building it. That falls into the "common sense" that I was talking about earlier. I never said I was going to buy a bunch of parts, take them out of the box, and bolt them together with a pack of natty light and a pair of pliers.
If the block needs to be machined, it will go to NAPA and I will drop $150. Either way, I will still be well under the $4800 VT shortblock.

Bill, Do you happen to know the gear ratios for the viper t56?
I looked online and got several conflicting results. Don't know which one is right.
Again, Thanks for all the input everyone.

 

[mransr]

Rickey Bobby,

you might want to check this thread over at mustnagboards.com:

http://www.mustangboards.com/modular-4-6l-tech/9452-anyone-intrested-5-4l.html

about 50 pages of discussion on putting 5.4 SOHCs in Mustangs...

for me, I'm looking for an appx 275/300 hp "daily driver" engine and the huge torque numbers from a 5.4 sounds like a good choice for me