mass air and throttle body
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Go HoTO!
New Member
Leave the MAF alone. That's my advice. There is absolute ZERO sense to change it out on a stock or even moderately modded Mustang. The MAF should not be replaced until the meter is pegged (voltage) and that won't happen until making much more HP than stock. The stock MAF is good until at least 350 rwhp. Lot of guys waisting money replacing the MAFs on their cars.
The only exception is to use the C&L 80mm MAF kit. It is NOT a true MAF replacement as it still uses the stock MAF electronics, but instead tricks the MAF into making your car run lean.....this adds more HP. Many guys use these with success, but I think it is a bad mod due to the lean condition especially if you start doing more mods. The C&L will add as much as 23 rwhp but I would only use it if you can get your car dyno tuned which is another big expense. Again, it is not a MAF replacement in the true sense.
Replacing the TB is a good mod but ONLY is you replace the plenum as well. The TB alone will actually cause you to loose hp. There is a big argument as to which TB to use 70 mm or 75 mm. The selection depends on which plenum you use. The dyno results I have seen will pretty much net you about 10 hp and 12 ft-lbs with the combo especially at higher rpms. It's a good mod, but about $400 for both.
I recomend the Acufab Plenum with the 70 mm TB or the C&L Plenum with the 75 mm TB. They seem to be the best combinations, but they all work about the same.
The only exception is to use the C&L 80mm MAF kit. It is NOT a true MAF replacement as it still uses the stock MAF electronics, but instead tricks the MAF into making your car run lean.....this adds more HP. Many guys use these with success, but I think it is a bad mod due to the lean condition especially if you start doing more mods. The C&L will add as much as 23 rwhp but I would only use it if you can get your car dyno tuned which is another big expense. Again, it is not a MAF replacement in the true sense.
Replacing the TB is a good mod but ONLY is you replace the plenum as well. The TB alone will actually cause you to loose hp. There is a big argument as to which TB to use 70 mm or 75 mm. The selection depends on which plenum you use. The dyno results I have seen will pretty much net you about 10 hp and 12 ft-lbs with the combo especially at higher rpms. It's a good mod, but about $400 for both.
I recomend the Acufab Plenum with the 70 mm TB or the C&L Plenum with the 75 mm TB. They seem to be the best combinations, but they all work about the same.
BlackVert
15 Year Member
i had the C&L 80 mm kit and my car did run lean. it felt good on lower rpms but pinged like crazy at 3500 and above. the check engine light (lean both sides) would not go off. i even backed the timing down and ran high octane and it still pinged.
this was on a 1996 gt, mostly stock.
i would not recommend it without either putting in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (to up the pressure) or injectors.
this was on a 1996 gt, mostly stock.
i would not recommend it without either putting in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (to up the pressure) or injectors.
twogts4us
15 Year Member
Props back at ya, Go HoTO - excellent post!Go HoTO! said:
A couple notes though -
#1 - you can lean out the OEM MAF minimally by simply removing the screen in the MAF housing. Know that this is all that the C&L MAF does - it leans out the A/F ratio. It's design is a bit more free flowing than the OEM one, and a huge K&N helps to create this lean situation, but it is simply an aluminum tube, using the stock electronics. See attached pics.
#2 - The 02 + GTs went to an 85mm MAF (and C&L makes one of the same size) My wife's 01 has the 80mm C&L MAF and it works well due to a old and mildly tuned Diablo chip. On my 02 however, I was already 15:1 without the C&L MAF, so I've yanked it for now. A paper filter is alot cheaper than a dyno tune and reburn. I am having second thoughts regarding how lean I may have been during actual driving though. While my dyno sheet showed 15:1 (at it's highest point), I was out on Innovate Motorsports website checking out the LM-1 A/F ratio meter - www.innovatemotorsports.com. On their homepage, their is a link for a video of the TV show "Two Guys Garage" when they tested this product. On the dyno their test car also peaked at 15:1 AFR, but when they took it out on the street with a laptop, they found the AFR actually fattened up a bit. (I need the LM-1!!!) I never had any pinging with or without the C&L MAF, so I wonder if I was being too cautious in removing the C&L. Oh well, while it's out, I am gonna polish the (visable) center ring. See the before pic attached below. Gimme a week and I'll give you all an update.
#3 - With regard to the plenum & TB, as you noted, the differences are minimal. All of them seem to be good, and anything is better than the stock one. (Heck, we just installed my old 02 (now ported and polished) plenum on my wife's 01, which netted a nice little upper RPM boost and absolutely no losses anywhere in the RPM range.) Next we'll add a Accufab TB.
Check out the shootout at modulardepot-->
70mm TB & plenum - http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=30
75mm TB & plenum - http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=38
Go HoTO!
New Member
twogts brought out some good added info. The bottom line is that "results will vary" with this thing. Which is enough for me to say "forget about it." Imagine if something like gears or exhausts had such wide, varying degree of sucess?
I removed my C&L due to pinging and miss-fires. It happened as soon as the weather warmed up....I was running over 30% leaner than stock.
I removed my C&L due to pinging and miss-fires. It happened as soon as the weather warmed up....I was running over 30% leaner than stock.
Go HoTO!
New Member
BlackVert
15 Year Member
yep, i had the same experience with my 1996, but it was in the winter. i removed it within a month. i have since sold the 1996 and have a 1995 5.0. i'm going to try it out on that, but i have a TwEECer now so I can put in the right flow numbers ...Go HoTO! said:
Z28 KILR
Founding Member
The CAI systems look nice don't get me wrong but they seem to be more of a problem then they are worth. I bought the Densecharger TB to MAF pipe and C&L 80mm MAF after my rebuild on my 1999 GT and it seemed to cause alot of problems. I had problems keeping the car running at idle it would dip down to 200-300 rpms. After a short break (2 years) I bought a 2004 with a different plan to modding. I really do not want to make any induction changes until I mod the bottom end. A few years ago TBs were a waste of money and I have never heard of a plenum until just recently. Most people added the Bullet or Cobra intake because it was a little bigger and looked alot better. I have seen some of the plenum and TBs installs looks really nice even with the factory MAF and pipe. Add the Plenum and TB and buy a K&N air filter but don't mess with the MAF until you have forced induction.
Go HoTO!
New Member
Rio96 said:
Not that I have ever seen, but a MAF is different in that it is measuring (as the name states) mass air flow. This is different than just measuring the amount of air. The MAF takes velocity, volume, and barometric data. Now, I may be a little off-base here, so bare with me, but I think I am making my point.
Modern cars are much more sophisticated and come out of the box already with a much better tune. As a result, modifications do not have the amount of benefits as they did on older cars.
When it comes to mods on 99+ Mustangs:
1 - Leave the MAF alone (as others have stated) unless the MAF voltage is pegged (ie...you need a blower usually)
2 - Leave the fuel system alone unless you are making at least 300 rwhp.
3 - CAI's look nice and really may not do a whole lot for a near stock car. However, as your car "grows" the benefits will become greater.
4 - Increasing the size of your TB is a great, proven mod as long as you go with a new plenum.
5 - Any changes you make to the intake OR exhaust can potentially change your a/f and will generally cause lean and not rich condition.
6 - Stock mustangs generally run a little rich, so a little added lean is not a problem.
7 - You don't need a tune until you have done more that just the normal bolt-ons (unless you are having a problem or have added a MAF). I have never seen a dyno tune do much more than add very few hp on a stock or lightly modded mustang. Not worth the $.
One of these dam days I am gonna make a spreadsheet with all the bolt-ons and associated cost and hp gains.
twogts4us
15 Year Member
well i have to disagree there, a good tune on a full bolt on car(minus a bullitt intake and headers) have shown good gains. The new SCT mail order chips are good also. I know my car is in need of a little tweaking from the mail order ship i have.Go HoTO! said:
for the poster:
get a t/a and pullies if you want some cheap good results. best bang for the buck besides o/r midpipe, gears, weight reduction and traction
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