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Missing, fuel in exhaust, code 11

  • Thread starter Thread starter '90VERT5.0
  • Start date Start date Sep 17, 2006
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'90VERT5.0

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Sep 16, 2006
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Sep 17, 2006
#1
  • Sep 17, 2006
  • #1
From reading prior posts it is apparent that it helps to lay out the situation so here goes....I've spent a bunch of hours reading posts and have learned more about my car, but can't quite figure out what is causing the problems. New to working on my own car.

Initially I had problems with starting when cool and/or damp. Some loss of power too. Had cleaned the IAC with a little carb cleaner and reassembled. Cleaned MAF (two little coils) with a q-tip and alchohol. Helped for a while but problem returned. Then the 'check engine light' came on. Took it to Ford and they indicated it had codes for EGR and sensor and BAP/MAP. Also a radiator leak. They wanted $1400 and didn't include hoses on the estimate. So went to the parts store and then replaced the EGR and sensor and it ran better but not great. Replaced plug wires, plugs, dist cap and rotor and starter solenoid. Replaced the radiator (up-sized to heavy duty), hoses and BAP and it seemed to run pretty good. Then it started missing a bit, but would smooth out after it got warm, after snapping it through the gears up to highway speed it would smooth out and then idle ok. Water pump failed. Replaced water pump and thermostat, added a recirculating over flow can(because of larger radiator stock bottle wouldn't fit). Fired it up and misses horribly, fog behind the car with gassy grey exhaust. Ran it up the street and onto the highway and still missing at speed, at all speeds. It has been sitting without running much for about six weeks. Much of the time with the battery disconnected, while replacing water pump etc.. Bought a code reader today and it codes 11, then the 10 'separation code' and then 34 in the continuous memory. Also kind of odd. But that was for the egr I replaced and assume it just hasn't cleared yet. I don't have a timing light, but will borrow a friend and his light to run the engine timing check. My code reader guide recommends not running the KOER until checking base timing and computers ability to electronically control the timing advance. So I haven't run KOER. While idling to warm up for KOEO, it puffs grey, very rich, gasoline-smelling smoke about a foot out the tailpipes....a bit more dense on the passenger side. Misses at a range of rpm. I did notice that the plastic vacuum tube to the egr was broken so I taped it up. When I tried to start the car, the starter kept running even after turning off and pulling the key.

Now I'm figurin the starter could be the solenoid, but I already replaced earlier. Maybe low voltage? The battery has been sitting. Could just the egr vacuum tube and/or low voltage explain the running rich and missing? I can't figure out why it isn't coding for running insanely rich? I don't want to run it much 'cause i'm afraid it will destroy the catylitic convertors and/or 02 sensors.
 
J

jete

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Jul 23, 2006
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Lexington Kentucky
Sep 17, 2006
#2
  • Sep 17, 2006
  • #2
not to sure about the rest but the starter sounds like something is making the two big posts on the solenoid connect and complete the circuit, or a bad ignition switch? Id check the solenoid. I dont see how it could be bad if you just replaced it. You got any mods on your car or is it stock? Vaccum hoses will be a nightmare. Id check them all as well. If you dont think you taped it good enough just replace it. Make sure all the wiring is straight under the hood connecting to the motor. Wiring can make nothing into something, and unless you pay real close attention, you might miss it.
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 17, 2006
#3
  • Sep 17, 2006
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Hey Jete, Thanks for the input. One of the threads on here says that low voltage can cause the solenoid to stick. I intend to replace the plastic vacuum line, but on the threads here it is reported as difficult tubing to find. There are rubber fittings on the ends too. Don't know if one can pull out the plastic vacuum tube and re-use the rubber 'boots' with some sealant or what?
I'll work on that tomorrow.

My bigger concern is what could be making it run so rich and missing. Also, forgot to mention in first post that while working on the water pump I pulled off a multi-wire connector from the base of the distributor and replaced it when done with the water pump. Maybe the connections there?
 
J

jete

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Jul 23, 2006
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Lexington Kentucky
Sep 17, 2006
#4
  • Sep 17, 2006
  • #4
If you got water or moisture in that connector that could really mess it up. Seeing as how that has alot to do with your timing. Go to fordfuelinjection.com They got alot of info on how the efi system works. Might be a sensor. Alot easier to find if you know how it works
 
J

jete

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Jul 23, 2006
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Lexington Kentucky
Sep 17, 2006
#5
  • Sep 17, 2006
  • #5
Also, id check your plugs. See if they are all firing. If one or two isnt firing all the time that gas goes straight to the exhaust. That code 11 could be cause by another problem, if so fixing the other problem would fix that one.
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 16, 2006
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Sep 17, 2006
#6
  • Sep 17, 2006
  • #6
Code 11 means 'no problems'....I can't figure out why no problems register when dumping gas into exhaust...
 
R

Reed

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Mar 31, 2005
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BC, Canada
Sep 18, 2006
#7
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #7
I would run the KOER test as soon as possible. My code reader said to check the timing yada yada, so I did with a light, but to be honest with you, besides being able to read what the timing was at, I had no idea what I was checking for, so I ran the test anyway. Good luck!
 

JChalfan

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Nov 27, 2002
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Bellevue, WA
Sep 18, 2006
#8
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #8
90vert, I have broken more of those damn hard plastic vacuum lines than I can count. Just go to the parts store and buy some rubber vacuum hose that will slip over the hard line, and use that to connect the two broken peices. Those lines get brittle with age I guess, and break really easily.

I wouldn't think the broken hose has anything to do with your rich running issues though.

Did the rich running problem happen right after you disconnected and reconnected the distributor plug? It would be worth at least re-seating the plug and see if that helps. It's pretty strange it's not storing any codes from running that rich.

In case you are new to 5.0's, setting the timing is a little different than on many other cars. You must remove the spout before you set base timing. It is a plug on the distributor wiring harness, very near the distributor. Remove the little "block" from the plug, set the timing with the spout removed, then put it back in. When you remove the spout, the computer has no control over the timing.

Good luck, I'm sure you will get a bunch of good suggestions tomorrow when more people read this thread.

Jeff
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 18, 2006
#9
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #9
Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate the help. We'll try getting some tubing that'll slip the hard plastic tubing. I s'pose ford still sells the hard plastic vacuum connections, for an outrageous price?
 

jrichker

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Try the local auto parts store before you try Ford. There isn't any real advantage using the hard plastic tubing over the rubber tubing other than the OEM look.
 

JChalfan

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Sep 18, 2006
#11
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #11
[QUOTE='90VERT5.0]Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate the help. We'll try getting some tubing that'll slip the hard plastic tubing. I s'pose ford still sells the hard plastic vacuum connections, for an outrageous price?[/QUOTE]

Ford might sell them, but like jrichker said there's no advantage, and I'm sure the price would be outrageous.

You wouldn't beleive what I had to pay for the rubber fuel line that runs from the pump to the fuel filter, from the Ford dealership. I needed it in a pinch, couldn't find it in a junk yard locally, so I went to Ford. I'm still walking funny from that.

Jeff
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 16, 2006
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Sep 18, 2006
#12
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #12
Thanks Guys!

Jete: no engine mods other than K&N conical filter and HD radiator. I know I need to pull plugs, after the next time I run a diagnostic test so I can check for wet ones.

Jeff: It has run rich all of the times that it has been running poorly, just richer now and clouds of smoke!

jrichker: Thanks, I don't care about how it looks, just how it works, under the hood anyway. Just going for the most robust repair! I thought maybe it would be a tighter fit (to avoid air leaking in) to buy plastic tubing and reuse the rubber pieces somehow. I'm headed to the parts store to get some tubing to slip the plastic stuff right now.

Anyone: Is there a nipple looking up under the fitting that has four vacuum lines where the line from the EGR ends up? Would that be better than slipping a patch over the tubing? Maybe carve up that rubber piece that connects two of the tubes to the four tube connector...in effect carve off the egr lobe and hook up straight to a nipple and to the nipple on the egr?

Have a coworker that will help me run timing and check fuel pressure. He wonders if fuel pressure regulator has failed and fuel pressure is too high? My coworker has a 302 powered AC Cobra kit car with twin turbos. He built it himself and mapped his own fuel management with a laptop. Should be good help and has been, but he's kinda stumped too about why the car would dump gas in the exhaust and not code something in the hard codes.

I've been dealin' with this...and driving my old farm truck to work....for six weeks. Got under my skin yesterday but ready to get back to fixin'...at least no need for large $$$ outlays at the moment.
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 16, 2006
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#13
  • Sep 18, 2006
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This evening I patched the egr vacuum line. A fully charged battery started the car ok....no sticking solenoid. Ran the same as before, missing at all rpm, dumping gas out the exhaust. Shut it off. Pulled the MAF connector and restarted and it ran better without missing, smoothly, but still dumping gas...even more I think. Reconnected MAF...harder to start, missing. Thinking I need a new MAF... Still suspecting a fuel pressure regulator, too.
 

JChalfan

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Sep 18, 2006
#14
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #14
[QUOTE='90VERT5.0]This evening I patched the egr vacuum line. A fully charged battery started the car ok....no sticking solenoid. Ran the same as before, missing at all rpm, dumping gas out the exhaust. Shut it off. Pulled the MAF connector and restarted and it ran better without missing, smoothly, but still dumping gas...even more I think. Reconnected MAF...harder to start, missing. Thinking I need a new MAF... Still suspecting a fuel pressure regulator, too.[/QUOTE]

Good idea about the fuel pressure. Get a gauge on there and see where it's at.

I still think you should just patch the tubing, it's the quickest and easiest fix I know of.

Jeff
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 16, 2006
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Sep 18, 2006
#15
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #15
Hey Jeff,

Patched the tubing...for the right size, the only choice was plastic line of a larger diameter (1/4" od). It was a good fit but not tight, so taped each end with electrical tape. Thanks for the good recommendation for an easy fix!

 

JChalfan

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Nov 27, 2002
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Bellevue, WA
Sep 18, 2006
#16
  • Sep 18, 2006
  • #16
[QUOTE='90VERT5.0]Hey Jeff,

Patched the tubing...for the right size, the only choice was plastic line of a larger diameter (1/4" od). It was a good fit but not tight, so taped each end with electrical tape. Thanks for the good recommendation for an easy fix!

[/QUOTE]

Glad it worked! Next time you're at a different store, see if they have a better fitting line. I've found line that worked good that was a lot smaller than 1/4" OD.

You check the fuel pressure yet?

Jeff
 

jrichker

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You mentioned a K&N conical filter - is it in the wheel well or engine compartment? If it is located in the engine compartment, that means that it needs a shield to protect it from the disturbed airflow caused by the fan. If it is located in the wheel well, try clocking the MAF (turning the MAF housing to change the airflow through the MAF).

Some help for the MAF: even though there are no codes, the info is helpful.

Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.

There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.

The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).

The MAF output varies with RPM which causes the airflow to increase or decease. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer.

At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt

Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.

There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF and ground.

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
 

'90VERT5.0

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Sep 19, 2006
#18
  • Sep 19, 2006
  • #18
Regarding the conical K&N, it is in the engine compartment. That said, it wasn't an issue for tens of thousands of miles. Also, with a larger radiator the fan blades are very nearly completely inside the shroud. So I'd think it has less disturbance to laminar air flow now than it did prior to the radiator replacement. Maybe I'm missing some in those thoughts, tho'. Seems to me it might be less than ideal, but not likely the key to my recent problems. I had read the description of MAF on another thread. I don't have a volt meter or any electrical testers, other than the code reader. My coworker does and he is planning on giving me a hand saturday.

The tubing was tight enough fit that if I had bought the next smaller size, the id wouldn't have been big enough. It was a snug fit, but I was afraid it wouldn't be airtight, especially since both tubings were hard plastic. I agree that a rubbery tubing would be a better patch because it could be a better fit and would stretch just a bit to fit over the original hard plastic. I'll check some other parts stores, since it would be easy to pull the temp repair off and do a little better.

Won't be able to check the fuel pressure and timing until Saturday, when my coworker can come by and lend a hand and some tools. Feelin' sick today and came home early, so won't run the KOER codes until I feel a bit better.

I really appreciate this site and all the information on the archived threads and all of the information I've received from members on this thread. Ain't computers (and StangNet) a wonderful thing?

:SNSign:
 

'90VERT5.0

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#19
  • Sep 19, 2006
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Oh yeh...and I'll definitely post my progress so anyone reading this thread can see a conclusion. Hopefully this won't turn into a demonic posession like one of the other threads I read on here...
 

'90VERT5.0

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Oct 5, 2006
#20
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Well...its mostly fixed, tho' there are still tasks remaining, of course. There's always something to do it seems. The principle problem was a simple one, and diagnosed when we used the code reader to check cylinders. No. 1 had a dead (new, but dead) spark plug. My buddy tells me I should keep the plug to remember to keep it simple...lol Hate to tell it, but checked the cats (by unplugging and looking for code) TPS, timing, and a substitute maf (borrowed),and fuel pressure, all checked out ok. Yup, Keep 'er simple...

Do have a need for a vacuum solenoid that goes up-vacuum from the egr. Still coding for the egr. Also had a serious leak at the air pump. Battery... well I looked up my old receipt, and the battery was 8 years old. So a new battery. The old one tested ok, showed full charge on my battery charger, but couldn't handle a load anymore.

It runs pretty well now, still has some minor idle issues. I'll work through emissions stuff and see if I can get 11's...lol.

Its wonderful to have it back on the road....
 
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