NA 351 or S/C 302?

[Black Stampede]

Talk about mis-information

Just because you're choosing to stick with the T5 with similar power as he may make doesn't mean it's the right choice.

The T5 has a rating of 300 for torque for a reason; that's what it can handle. When you go above that torque rating you're playing with a bomb that doesn't have a timer. Sure, it's possible his T5 could last until he is ready to replace it with something better (and I already said that in a previous post), but that isn't a guarantee.

350 tq at the wheels with 15% drive line loss is a little over 410 ft lbs coming from the engine. You have to remember transmission specs come from the motor.

So at over 100 ft lbs of torque over the maximum recommended specs... I don't think I was 'riling him up over nothing'.

I didn't put a supercharger on my car to go 1/4 throttle all the time. Anytime someone uses the argument of 'if they don't drive it like an animal' or something similar when it comes to power mods and breaking other things they sound a little off in my book. If you plan on stepping down on that gas pedal once you're already asking for it.

I'm not telling the guy he needs to put a T56 in or else he'll die, but I want him to realize the potential is there for him to blow the transmission. I'm just trying to be realistic. I don't think any of us like to put any money into our cars, have something break, and then just sit there and stare at it while we try and scrounge up more money to fix what we broke.

First off to correct you I do not plan on sticking with a t-5 around his power levels I am sticking with it with at least 150 more rwhp than him.

Hahaha this is funny. At least 3 people I know and myself as well are making 500 rwhp or over and do NOT take it easy on our cars and only one of ours has blew and it was after 2 years. You know what he did? Put another t-5 in it and its been running great for another year. You are freaking out over a t-5 on a 350 rwhp car and it blows my mind.

And to correct you again, by saying "drive it like an animal" I am not referring to full throttle or going through the gears etc. OF COURSE EVERYONE DOES THAT. I am referring to the idiots who dump their clutch, powershift and go above and beyond to overstress their car. Not sure if you understand this but going 1/4 throttle vs full throttle doesn't affect the tranny.

The guy is a on a budget and what better way to save money then to NOT do something that is years away from actually needing to be replaced. Funny thing is if he was planning 500 rwhp and couldnt afford a tranny I would say dont sweat it. Take it easy and realize its gonna break, but don't hold off on building your car cause you can't afford a tranny.

Not everyone has unlimited funds. Could I use a tranny this year? Of course I could I have a t-70 turbo and a stock tranny. But it doesnt mean I park my car get a second job and wait til I can afford a tranny to drive it. You make due with what you got and hope you can afford it the next year. Not trying to get you all pissed, but it just seems a little over the top to stress him getting a tranny so bad.

 

[95snoozer]

if I started piecing together my 351 setup, i would quickly get to 6k and beyond.

chp 396 ?
trick flow CNCd twisted wedges - 1800?
custom cam and valvetrain 3-600 ish
trick flow box R intake-550
1 3/4 headers 300
roller rockers 200
distributor ?
28 ounce balancer ?
3 inch exhaust ?
have to get a hood that will clear it all and paint that. ?

Crap I think i am already over.

I would go boost. You are more likely to come under budget and the parts dont have to be bought all at once like with the 351 setup.

Get the gt40p motor, put an anderson B serious blower cam in it. you will make well over 400 at the wheels with ease.

building an big NA motor that makes mid 300s because you were budgeting might be cool on a forum. But at the end of the day, it doesnt matter whats under the hood when you get drug by a 400 hp blown coupe or a heads cam camaro putting down 430 at the wheels

 

[Venom351R]

Huh?? I have no idea what happened to your friends rear end but it was not the synthetic oil. I have used synthetic (Amsoil) for over 20yrs in ALL my rear ends and have NEVER had a failure. There can be many reasons why it failed.

Just going on what happened with him, it was fine until he did the switch. I believe he had an Eaton.

 

[BlackVert]

just my o ...

building a big n/a motor that makes "mid 300s" because you are on a budget is cool, forum or elsewhere. there are ALWAYS people out there who are going to be faster ... count on it. with a bigger motor, when the budget allows, you can really do alot with it, which is not as easy with a smaller motor. there is no replacement for displacement

just my o ...


just a thought ....

if you are on a budget, you can save more than a few dollars going with a carb instead of fuel injection. i will be selling all my EFI stuff and i will probably get about $1600 for it all together. the carb stuff has run me $800 so far, and i'm looking at probably another $100 for other stuff. so that will put me about $700 ahead

just a thought ...

 

[Chads95GT]

snoozer, you make a good point. and thats part of the reason why i considered going with boost. i can get the motor in and get it running and then upgrade everything one at a time, meaning blower, bigger maf and throttle body etc.

black vert, ive thought about a carb setup too. but i want to stick with fuel injection. it will be more expensive, but i think it will be easier and less work than swapping everything. thanks for the idea though

 

[Black Stampede]

building an big NA motor that makes mid 300s because you were budgeting might be cool on a forum. But at the end of the day, it doesnt matter whats under the hood when you get drug by a 400 hp blown coupe or a heads cam camaro putting down 430 at the wheels

I agree totally agree, but I can also see the other side of the fence. I can understand that there are people out there who want a reliable car that is just quick which a mid 300 rwhp gives you. However, personally I agree, as I would get bored very quickly making that kind of power.

If I didn't go turbo, which nothing would make me wish I hadn't, I always thought it would be cool to have a 408 t-trim setup. Of course it would be pricey, but you could dump the dollars in for the motor first then save for awhile and do the blower later. End up right around 700 rwhp and call it a day. Obviously our thread starter isn't looking for that much power but I think a 351 based combo is the best bet.

 

[HGFireHazard]

First off to correct you I do not plan on sticking with a t-5 around his power levels I am sticking with it with at least 150 more rwhp than him.

Hahaha this is funny. At least 3 people I know and myself as well are making 500 rwhp or over and do NOT take it easy on our cars and only one of ours has blew and it was after 2 years. You know what he did? Put another t-5 in it and its been running great for another year. You are freaking out over a t-5 on a 350 rwhp car and it blows my mind.

And to correct you again, by saying "drive it like an animal" I am not referring to full throttle or going through the gears etc. OF COURSE EVERYONE DOES THAT. I am referring to the idiots who dump their clutch, powershift and go above and beyond to overstress their car. Not sure if you understand this but going 1/4 throttle vs full throttle doesn't affect the tranny.

The guy is a on a budget and what better way to save money then to NOT do something that is years away from actually needing to be replaced. Funny thing is if he was planning 500 rwhp and couldnt afford a tranny I would say dont sweat it. Take it easy and realize its gonna break, but don't hold off on building your car cause you can't afford a tranny.

Not everyone has unlimited funds. Could I use a tranny this year? Of course I could I have a t-70 turbo and a stock tranny. But it doesnt mean I park my car get a second job and wait til I can afford a tranny to drive it. You make due with what you got and hope you can afford it the next year. Not trying to get you all pissed, but it just seems a little over the top to stress him getting a tranny so bad.

I didn't and still don't won't this to become a pissing match between you and I (which is dang near what its already become), but I think you aren't seeing my point.

I understand that you can run 500 tq through a T5 and have it survive, in some cases for several years. I also understand the difference between going through the gears and putting a little abuse on the transmission. However, I don't know anyone who granny shifts when going full throttle between the gears, and if he goes with a clutch that grabs a little more, he'll put more stress on his transmission during those full throttle shifts.

Obviously you and I are two different types of car builders. I prefer to do support mods in order to prevent things from breaking, whereas you seem to prefer to break things and replace them, and that's just fine.

I also don't consider myself an idiot for dumping the clutch. However, I do have a 500 hp/tq capable clutch, 600 tq transmission and 3.73 gears in the back to take it all no problem. You might be a little more at risk for doing something like that than myself.

All in all, my entire point was to encourage him to pay attention to the potential weak link after he does the mods he wishes to do, that's it. I didn't tell him to not do his motor build and do the transmission first, I mentioned the possible problems in his future. Also, used parts sell better when they actually work

I'm not rich, so I can't afford a whole slew of new things for the car every year. Plus in Michigan we only have a few select months every year where it's nice enough to drive the car, so I prefer to have it on the road whenever possible.

Really, I'd rather just shake hands with you and agree to have different opinions

 

[Venom351R]

302 SC VS 351 or bigger is a vicious circle you go in.

Say you do the 302 w/ a S/C, H/C/I fuel system and all the supporting mods you will have a high 400 RWHP car w/ the right tune and right mods. The flip side is damn what if I had 400 RWHP or close to it w/ out boost and did it all on motor..or the ever itching question of...hey why can I do a SC 351 . Which is where I am now, I could easly throw a Vortech on this motor I have now, everything is already upgraded except for the injectors and bam 500 HP. And I probably will do this at some point but right now Im in the mind set of doing more with less. A 351 is more then the 302 but to reach my goals w/ out boost is something I want to do before I go the boosted route.

You really have to put all your options out on paper and break them down as far as cost, what the potential of each scenario will be and what your willing to invest as far as money and what your current goals are at the moment.

 

[Pokageek]

...
I understand that you can run 500 tq through a T5 and have it survive, in some cases for several years. I also understand the difference between going through the gears and putting a little abuse on the transmission. However, I don't know anyone who granny shifts when going full throttle between the gears, and if he goes with a clutch that grabs a little more, he'll put more stress on his transmission during those full throttle shifts.

.............
..........
Really, I'd rather just shake hands with you and agree to have different opinions

I like both u guys so don't flame me. You are both right in 2 different aspects. I am just making an observation based on point. It doesn't matter if you have know 10 guys running 590rwhp on a t-5, it's a bad idea if you want reliability to run a part rated at 300rwhp. I have heard myself that people have done and all of them shake their heads and say we don't know why it held up. I have seen more people blow them up tho lol!! You guys are great, thanks for not getting mad!!

 

[Black Stampede]

I didn't and still don't won't this to become a pissing match between you and I (which is dang near what its already become), but I think you aren't seeing my point.

I understand that you can run 500 tq through a T5 and have it survive, in some cases for several years. I also understand the difference between going through the gears and putting a little abuse on the transmission. However, I don't know anyone who granny shifts when going full throttle between the gears, and if he goes with a clutch that grabs a little more, he'll put more stress on his transmission during those full throttle shifts.

Obviously you and I are two different types of car builders. I prefer to do support mods in order to prevent things from breaking, whereas you seem to prefer to break things and replace them, and that's just fine.

I also don't consider myself an idiot for dumping the clutch. However, I do have a 500 hp/tq capable clutch, 600 tq transmission and 3.73 gears in the back to take it all no problem. You might be a little more at risk for doing something like that than myself.

All in all, my entire point was to encourage him to pay attention to the potential weak link after he does the mods he wishes to do, that's it. I didn't tell him to not do his motor build and do the transmission first, I mentioned the possible problems in his future. Also, used parts sell better when they actually work

I'm not rich, so I can't afford a whole slew of new things for the car every year. Plus in Michigan we only have a few select months every year where it's nice enough to drive the car, so I prefer to have it on the road whenever possible.

Really, I'd rather just shake hands with you and agree to have different opinions

Yay for forum arguments!! I won't stop until I win!!!! Hahaha. Dude, it's all good. It's not that I like to break stuff then fix them it's just that I am forced to do that because of funds. I say do what you can with what you got and that's all you can do. I mean, we both know you SHOULD have those supporting mods. Shoot if I could afford it I'd have a t-56 its just not that easy. Where is st.johns?? You should come out to the west side this summer.

 

[HGFireHazard]

Yay for forum arguments!! I won't stop until I win!!!! Hahaha. Dude, it's all good. It's not that I like to break stuff then fix them it's just that I am forced to do that because of funds. I say do what you can with what you got and that's all you can do. I mean, we both know you SHOULD have those supporting mods. Shoot if I could afford it I'd have a t-56 its just not that easy. Where is st.johns?? You should come out to the west side this summer.

20 minutes north of Lansing. Being in Grand Rapids you and I are relatively close and I could always use more Stang buddies A trip over that way could be very possible!

Poka, you got nothing to worry about my friend. I do my best to respect the thoughts and opinions of others on this site and offer my different thoughts and arguments up at the same time. Sometimes things get a little heated... but it's all hopefully in good spirit by the end

 

[ProKiller]

I'd go with the blower to stay under budget. lets face facts here, no one comes in under their budget building a 351 based combo. the swap parts take a huge chunk of it becuase you NEED to have them when you build, where as a 302 based blower setup, you have everything else, your just upgrading. but to that same argument not many people come in under their budget with a 302 either, but its more likely here.

My personal experience would be to go with a rebuilt block or a stroker and toss on a blower. call it a day. buy a used vortech and you'll be at about 400hp with basic supporting hardware. it will satisfy you for the time being with the power, not much of a difference streetability wise as the boost doesn't kick in till the higher RPMs. then as money allows, you upgrade the rest of the car. everything from that point on will only gain power. yes you may get maxed out with a 302 fairly quickly by doing a 347 stroker, but if you get bored with a 347 blown combo, your probably making enough power to warrant a more stout block anyway, so you'll have to upgrade to say a dart block.

and its kind of funny to watch the forum progress over the years. if you go back to this type of thread maybe 2-3 years ago, not a single person would have told you to do a 351 because it cost waaaayyyy to much.

 

[BlackVert]

chad, do you have a source for a complete 351 engine, intake to oil pan?

 

[BlackVert]

i have given this topic alot of thought over the last few years, and if i had 6 grand for a project like this, this is what i would do this time around ...

- get a complete 351 EFI engine that runs, intake to oil pan, injectors, everything
- get a used 351 intake, like a typhoon for example, off corral
- do the bare minimum to get it in the car like that
- no swapping accessories or anything, as much as possible.
- the oil pan would almost certainly need to be changed
- it would need swap headers
- but everything else is already there, put together, and ready to go

that would be a huge step in the right direction. and it would be a solid foundation i could build on. i'm confident it could be done for under $2000

here is the type of engine i'm talking about:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994...62QQcategoryZ33615QQihZ011QQitemZ320114326376

it would probably be a good idea to select a cam and put it in before dropping in the engine. if so, the i would up the estimate to $2500.

once the 351 is in and running, i'd see how much money i had left and decide what the next most important thing is. maybe the tranny, maybe heads, maybe brakes. but at that point, i'd have a good working foundation that i could build on.

but then again, i am a big cubes, n/a kind of guy.

 

[Black Stampede]

20 minutes north of Lansing. Being in Grand Rapids you and I are relatively close and I could always use more Stang buddies A trip over that way could be very possible!

Poka, you got nothing to worry about my friend. I do my best to respect the thoughts and opinions of others on this site and offer my different thoughts and arguments up at the same time. Sometimes things get a little heated... but it's all hopefully in good spirit by the end

Yeah, that aint far. I am in Lansing all the time for my internship actually right near State. So you run at Martin I'm guessing?

As for you P Geek. You may like us, but we just had a meeting and we agreed that no one likes you. Hahaha JK buddy.
Anyways, no I agree I couldn't tell you why or how those trannys are holding up. You gotta pay to play though and when it go's I can be the one to tell myself I told you so haha.

 

[Chads95GT]

black vert, yes i have the complete engine. intake to oil pan, all the wiring and accessories, everything. my friend actually has the whole truck it came in. the only downside is it has over 100,000 miles on it. the guy he got it off of said the motor made a "tick" noise. but the starter is out of the truck and fuel tank so i could here the noise. so i am left with two options: rebuild the motor now, or drop it in and fire it up and see what the noise is. maybe its a lifter thats dry, or maybe its a rod bearing.

and i like ur idea and getting the motor in and running solid before building it up with heads and intake.

 

[BlackVert]

black vert, yes i have the complete engine. intake to oil pan, all the wiring and accessories, everything. my friend actually has the whole truck it came in. the only downside is it has over 100,000 miles on it. the guy he got it off of said the motor made a "tick" noise. but the starter is out of the truck and fuel tank so i could here the noise. so i am left with two options: rebuild the motor now, or drop it in and fire it up and see what the noise is. maybe its a lifter thats dry, or maybe its a rod bearing.

and i like ur idea and getting the motor in and running solid before building it up with heads and intake.

the "tick" could also have been just a loose header.

if it were me, i'd put it in as is and see how it runs. these engines usually last alot longer than 100k. if it needs a rebuild, then the hard part of getting it in is already done and then it is just a rebuild.

i'll even sell you the 351w typhoon intake off mine (i'm going carb) if you want it. then all you need is the swap oil pan and headers. and if you want my t/b and elbow and mass air meter and stuff, we can work that into the deal as well.

i also have a afm cam if you want that too.

 

[Chads95GT]

ya i agree the tick could be a lot of things. i wish i could have heard it. thanks for the offer on the intake and stuff, i dont know how soon im going to start this, but by summer time i should be ready, not sure if u want to hold on to those things til then. but we can talk out the details.