Need a new clutch soon...should I go King Cobra or Spec Stage I?

[HISSIN50]

SB, dont be humble - i dont see M.Y. give many people props, and he has to you. i enjoy your back and forths on threads. you are both famous for your very long, detailed, and informative posts.

as i do most work myself (on 14 vehicles. aaargghh), i manage to botch things up often - i know how easy it is (i dont need any special perspective to see that). LOL. for me, the job is not done until i have done a time or six.

thank you for the info. that is kinda what i had thought, though sometimes a step up is "the better, the better" as you put it, but not so here. i agree that there is a much greater chance of another variable or variables affecting the performance of a product, than the product itself (if that makes sense).

so for stockers, like me, a stage one kit is fine - no need to upgrade to a different disc, etc. that is what i was unsure of, and you covered the waterfront on that.
thanks again, big J.

 

[stangbear427]

Stage 1 might be able to hold but I am mean to clutches.

So are we... that's how we found out about the stellar customer service at Centerforce. Grenaded three of them in a row in the old truck; it says a lot about a company when you send them back in peices every few days and they just keep sending you new ones...

Stage II on a stocker would be just plain stupid, but I suppose a well built bolt on car that gets driven hard could benfit, at least enough to outweigh the hypothetical disadvantages. Heck, if I'd had the money I'd have gone McCloud kevlar again against my own advise.

 

[90mustangGT]

...sometimes a step up is "the better, the better" as you put it, but not so here. i agree that there is a much greater chance of another variable or variables affecting the performance of a product, than the product itself (if that makes sense).

That makes perfect sence. People often think because it is "stage 3", it must be better than "stage 1" or "stage 2" but isn't accurate because "stage 3" on a "stage 1" application just doesn't make sense. (is that what you meant)

The Kevlar disc's advantage is it's heat resistance over an organic disc which the surface will melt/burn loosing grip and slipping and the melted/burnt material will glaze the flywheel/pressure-plate and leave a slick slippery surface on everything. For a daily driver/street and maby some track duty with regular tires the advantages of the Kevlar disc would never be revealed. But if your launching at 5Krpm on slicks, the kevlar would show it's advantage. I plan on getting some slicks later this year, and run at the track alot but only on nitto's. As far as I know the clutch on mine is factory with 150K and is holding fine.

 

[HISSIN50]

Jason, that is what i meant (though i was reiterating what Stangbear had said, so the thought is not my own)....
then the later part of the quote: i think a lot of the problems people have can be contributed to "installer" error, driver error (break in), or other variables, rather than a poor product (i think that is what SB was getting at too).
of course, there are things like what SB said, where a given part fries time after time...but i was mainly talkin about the Spec stuff. people generally seem to like them, and for the ones whom had bad experiences, it could have been something other than the product itself (see above. im trying to be subtle, i dont want to start a war).

i knew that clutch friction material was kind of like some brake compounds, where they are not efficient at temps that a street driven car would see (actually hurting performance until they are really hot - hotter than a street car would likely see). however, i was not sure of the thresholds for the various compounds (i.e. i had wondered if kevlar was good on a street driven car). and you have all answered all of those questions and then some. i like threads like this.
Jordan, see what happens when you post over here.

 

[90mustangGT]

No need to be subtle, people make mistakes, and sometimes people are just missinformed. That's why these forums are so great, we all learn from them. Some people go through clutch after clutch just because they don't know how to drive a manual. You should see this guy at my work, he broke the pressure plate on the work truck, I mean there was a half inch wide gap break in it. When I go to the track, it is supprising that so many people ride the clutch, even on the street people are afraid to let out the clutch, they sneak it in. Ever scene somone up on a hill using thier clutch as a brake?

It's not just clutches, I can't stand it when you see a brand new car with dealer tags on it just being dogged on like no other.

I fear getting a clutch because 500 miles of babying it will be hard for me.

 

[cobradvm]

Great thread guys. I will fully admit that installer error, or poor break in could be responsible for the problem I had with the stage 1. I am by no means an expert in clutch installs having done a total of 2 at this point! After I returned the Spec clutch, I called them 2-3 times, specifically to find out if they felt it was installer error, or a failure of the clutch, and they would not tell me what the problem was. If I had done something wrong I didn't want to repeat the error (although there is a limit to what they could tell me simply by looking at the clutch). They certainly seemed interested in keeping me happy (which they did) by resurfacing the f/w and replacing the stage 1 with a stage 2 (the pressure plate was different in the stage 2 vs stage 1).
My car is a 1990 GT essentially stock. The stage 2 for me is 100 times better than the stage one, silky smooth on all gear changes, and negligble chatter from standstill. I still have the stock T5 and bell housing and it all went back together without any problems (that I noticed!!). It revs freely - no vibration, bad noises etc. I don't think clutch installs are particularly difficult - its mostly time consuming and somewhat uncomfortable unless you have a lift.
Sooooo....thumbs for Spec - can't wait for the 500 miles to be up - if something changes I will keep you posted. I don't want people to think I am ragging on Spec based on one problem I had with it - I happened to note others having similar problems (V8only and some one else also posted about clutch odor on a stage 1) so I can't help but feel that there may be some quality issues with the stage 1.

Ok - I'll shut up now.

Howard

 

[HISSIN50]

Great thread guys. I will fully admit that installer error, or poor break in could be responsible for the problem I had with the stage 1. Howard

Howard, i hope this was not created from a comment of mine. i only referenced you and the other thread because i remembered your reply on it (because it was a thoughtful reponse which i remembered). i actually appreciated your response because you gave a lot of info on your experience and thoughts. the sort of comments i was referring to are more along the lines of the ones where someone says: ' brand XXXX sucks!" with no additional info or insight. or when relatively un-savvy folks have had parts installed by someone else, and figure it is time to thrash on it. while that is a crude generalization, it does happen (something about having done the install yourself that makes you be a little more careful with the break in, i think).

in no way were my remarks directed at you (sore spot for me: someone flys the BS flag at a reply of mine, without giving their opinion on why they think i am wrong. i have no problem with someone telling me im wrong, but tell me WHY!). Jason sums it up nicely - we (at least i) are/am here to learn and refine our techniques and methods. i think of it as the pursuit of being anally Zen. anyone can bolt something in, but really understanding it and knowing all of the nuances to make the install perfect, is what i am after. we nit pick a lot, in that pursuit (i think), though a lot of the opinions are correct (some are more correct.

i admit that im not great with installing stuff, or even break ins. as i thought about it, it seems like one should not need to jump through too many hoops to get something to break in. while i know burnishing, etc is nice for brakes, the same should not be true on a clutch (just a good break in).

all of the info given in this thread is great. for example, i had no idea Spec was so cool about returns and problems. even if the product were to suck (or be a bad one off the line), knowing that they handle it, speaks volumes to me. i know of other companies whom are not so inclined.

great info everyone. and again, Howard - seriously, none of my comments were directed at you. i appreciate your feedback and candor - that is what helps us all decide which stuff to try.

 

[stangbear427]

...and replacing the stage 1 with a stage 2 (the pressure plate was different in the stage 2 vs stage 1).
Howard

Ok, I'm almost done being a prick in here. One last clarification: with SPEC, stage I,II, and III all use the same pressure plate. The only difference is the clutch disc. Not until stage IV does the PP get upgraded. This is the reason why stage I can have such a high HP rating, and also why some people complain about pedal effort with the SPECs. As I posted earlier though, there are tricks for not only dealing with that, but completely eradicating it as a problem.
OH- Howard, do you have a SPEC flywheel? I don't think you specified, but assumed you may since they fixed it for you? Not that it matters. Just as a sidenote, the SPEC billet flywheels don't need to be re-ground, and should hence last indefinately because they have a replacable friction surface. Just a cool feature that's a little off topic...

 

[cobradvm]

SB - the flywheel was from spec as well - I figured if I went with all new stuff, from the same vendor, it should have a better chance of working better together - but in my case it didn't! - go figure. Their PP appeared different to me - the difference being the clutch fingers - on cross section, the stage 1 fingers are flat like this --- on the stage two they were grooved so on cross section they looked like this -v- hope that makes sense - there was basically a V groove down the middle. So based on that I assumed they were different - if I need to call them, I will ask them at some point.

Hissin50 - I wasn't sure if you were trying to be subtle about it rather than the typical "you f'd it up" that one often gets - I just didn't want to give the impression that I was the be all and end all of clutch installers

Have a good one

H.

BTW SB - how much do you want for the 3.73s - are they new or used??

 

[stangbear427]

Used. When I bought a rear end rebuild kit a few years ago, it came with gears so I changed them. There wasn't anything wrong with them, just figured I may as well. Now I wish I hadn't, since the new ones would obviously be easier to sell, but if nobody wants them I'll just end up putting them in my wifes LX or something. I'd like to get $50 for them.

Maybe the PP design changed a bit over the time period you had yours? Happens every now and then, something gets changed/improved in the meantime and they just upgrade you to the new one. Just a hunch, based on what they told me about them. I was pretty explicit with my questions, and they were pretty black and white about them all being the same- so that's my best guess.

 

[rdksek844]

I'm sorry, maybe I've been lucky or something, but to this day I have swapped out 3 clutches on mustangs and never resurfaced any of my flywheels. The one in my mustang now came out of an 87 gt with 130,000 miles on it. The only reason I replaced it was the one that was resurfaced that was in the car was warped and had light smearing and blue heat marks. I would just buy a new flywheel than ever have one resurfaced. And maybe I'm just blind but I've never seen any clutch material on a flywheel. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but I have a hard time spending 30.00 to 50.00 at a machine shop when you can buy one for about 100.00.

 

[5.0lpowerhouse]

Sorry for a little hijacking, I'm used to mod motors where more gear is better.. I have a 03 Mach 1 and a 89 GT, I'm looking to upgrade the gears in the 89.. I plan on keeping the car N/A are 3.73 gears to much gear? My setup is Cobra U/L Intake Manifolds, GT 40 Iron heads, BBK E/Q Shorties, MAC-H O/R, BBK TB, Moroso CAI, SCT chip and I think thats it for power mods. I just don't want to put the gears and have them be to much gear.

BTW, I'm right in CT as well

 

[rdksek844]

If you drive around town mostly and stay under 80 on the highway they are no problem. After 70 though you will be around 3000+ and thats if you have a 5 speed. I have them, and have no complaints.

 

[Imyourzero]

Well guys, I think I'll just go with a SPEC Stage II. After doing some more research, I've heard just enough bad things about the Centerforce and King Cobra to keep me from getting them. Don't get me wrong, I've read a lot of good things too, but I've heard less negative things about the SPEC clutches (especially the Stage II). Besides, that freakin' Centerforce Dual Friction is higher than any of the others that I've been looking at...it's over $300...too much money to take a chance on.

I know that a lot of the negative things I've read may have been posted by people that didn't install the clutch correctly or break them in properly, but the majority of people seem to have only excellent things to say about the SPEC Stage II, plus their customer service rocks, plus it'll support all the power I'll ever need even if I throw a shot of nitrous or a supercharger on the car. I just hope it doesn't destroy my T5!!

Thanks for all the info guys; I think my mind is made up. But feel free to keep posting because there is a lot of good stuff in this thread.

 

[5.0lpowerhouse]

thanks for the reply, I hear people debate over this all the time... is it bad to run the engine at 3k like that on the highway? also can a tune calibrate the speedo like the 96+ cars?


Thanks again,
Nick

 

[HISSIN50]

Jordan, the easy solution to keep your trans from grenading: run a crapola clutch. LOL. (that was the logic of one guy in here). or smear grease on the friction surfaces and dont break it in. it will slip and you will have no worries.
ill be following your suit ('cept stage one) when the time comes. let us know how you like it. take care, big J.

 

[stangbear427]

thanks for the reply, I hear people debate over this all the time... is it bad to run the engine at 3k like that on the highway? also can a tune calibrate the speedo like the 96+ cars?


Thanks again,
Nick

No. The ideal operating range for almost every engine is from 2500-3500rpm. That is where you will have the best mileage with the engine doing the least amount of work to maintain speed.

No. The newer cars have electronic speedos, we have to change the speedo gears at the tranny to calibrate. Kindof archaic, but it works. Not as easy, but not as expensive either.

 

[bluevenom867]

I hear a RAM clutch is a good one.
I use a King Cobra and it worked great exept I only had it on for maybe 3000-4000 miles.

 

[Imyourzero]

Jordan, the easy solution to keep your trans from grenading: run a crapola clutch. LOL. (that was the logic of one guy in here). or smear grease on the friction surfaces and dont break it in. it will slip and you will have no worries.
ill be following your suit ('cept stage one) when the time comes. let us know how you like it. take care, big J.

Thanks bud, it will be a little while before I buy one (I'm gonna wait until mine is nearly gone) but I'll let ya know how the Stage II is when I get it.

The ideal operating range for almost every engine is from 2500-3500rpm. That is where you will have the best mileage with the engine doing the least amount of work to maintain speed.

Really? I thought one of the reasons that LS1's and 03 Cobras were able to maintain decent gas mileage is due to their 6-speed trannies? That 6th gear apparently drops the revs VERY low (significantly below 2,000) on the highway and I was told that's what enables them to get tolerable gas mileage with such high-po engines. Are you saying that if they cruised 1k-1.5k higher on the tach, they would get better fuel mileage?

 

[stangbear427]

Precisely. Below 2000 isn't even remotely in the powerband, and they are lugging everywhere they go. Back in the carburator days high revs meant low gas mileage usually, but it isn't so anymore, and I would say from my days with the '84 4bbl that it was only ever and illusion at best. Horsepower is the ability to do work, and the more you have, the less work you have to do to accomplish the same job. Having the extra overdrive gear is advantageous on the highway, true enough. However, fantastic machines though they are, they really still don't (from the factory) have enough power to justify it. They will get better mileage on the highway downshifting to 5th to climb every hill, unless they are doing 90... which would put them up into the powerband a little. With EFI, how many R's you are spinning has very little to do with your gas mileage except in relation to the load on the motor. For example, in my GT with 3.73's and 5spd, I can cruise on the highway at 65mph in 5th at about 2000rpm (roughly, my speedo's off) at about 17psi of vacuum pressure. When I come to a hill, maintaining 65 in 5th will drop me below 5psi as the load on the engine increases. If I downshift into 4th for the hill, the r's go up to 3000 at 65, and I am able to climb the hill without dropping below 10psi. As you know, your vacuum pressure is directly related to how much fuel is getting sucked into your heads. As things stand in the real world, I drive 3000rpm on the highway all the time in 5th, which is closer to 80mph. If I fill up and get on the highway, set the cruise at 80mph/3000rpm and stay there till I need to fill up again (I have done this) I'll get about 20mpg with my 232,000+ mile heavy bolt on Fox. I've tried life at the speed limit, and saw my average drop to 15mpg. Quite simply, 2500-3500 rpm is where the engine is running most efficiently. Not becuase of my redneck experiments, but becuase of what little knowledge I've retained of my engine theory homework. And not without exception, but most of them do. And to keep it relevent, 4th gear at 1:1 ratio at 3000rpm would be less stressfull for the clutch to hold than 5th gear at 2000 would.