Need engine rebuild advice

[stang1986GT]

Hey folks, I need to be planning an engine rebuild for next year. I have an '86 with the stock 5.0 with about 143,000 miles, and I think I want to pull it out and rebuild it instead of buying a used engine. I just want to know what I have. Please keep in mind that this car is a daily driver, with a trip down to the track a time or two. I want the car to be reliable and driveable, but I want it to be faster than a stock or average 5.0. I don't want nitrous or anything like that right now. I want to add a blower at some point, so I don't want to cut corners now.

My questions are: I assume that while I have the engine apart, I should go ahead and install an E303 cam and have the pistons cut or replace the pistons so that I can run maybe twisted wedge heads or something other than the non-flowing '86 heads I have now. Correct?

Also, should I upgrade or replace the rocker arms, etc? Should I go with 1.7 or something like that? If so, what brand to you guys suggest?

As far as rings, what should I go with that will stand up to a little abuse but hang in there for the long haul?

Should I go ahead and upgrade the injectors, regulator and fuel pump? If so, how large an injector should I go with?

I don't want to put a ton of money into it, i.e. blower and stuff like that right now (want blower later) but I want to do it right and I don't want to cut corners. I also want to build a good foundation to add a blower at some point down the road. I want to get the engine to where I don't have to add oil every 200 miles (doesn't smoke now, but I think it's getting sucked up by the PCV) first, then I'll do suspension and brakes, then I'll start adding more go fast stuff after I get another daily driver.

I value your opinions on here...that's why I posted. Thanks!

 

[txstang84]

yes, install a new cam-e-cam is a good start

replace the pistons, if you really wanna stay stock stroke, at least take the block out 0.030" and get all the associated machine work taken care of

if you've got the green, go for the TW's, if you want to save a little moolah, you can go with the Y-303's...they are a good low cost aluminum head, and they use stock length pushrods, and standard style rockers...TW's use special length rods, and only a couple of kinds of rockers will play well with them...stay with stock ratio unless you know the pistons you buy will support the extra lift.

rings....go with a good set of moly face rings, don't go low tension, unless you really like to burn oil. break them in, and they should provide years of reliable service

yes, you should upgrade the injectors, the stock 19lber's will work for now, but you'll end up running a little lean even with the pressure cranked...and you'll need to install bigger ones when you put the boost to it later anyway, get ready to buy at least some 36lbers...(it'll keep you from having to use the FMU)

even a mild 306 with aluminum heads and a mild cam can always benefit from some extra fuel flow, so yes, upgrade your fuel system, buy a bigger pump (155 or 190-buy it for your proposed hp level with the blower and be realistic) and an AFPR...

you'll always find little stuff to buy, and its all available to you readily

oh, and if it's available to you, go get it dyno tuned


hope this helps

 

[stang1986GT]

yes, install a new cam-e-cam is a good start

replace the pistons, if you really wanna stay stock stroke, at least take the block out 0.030" and get all the associated machine work taken care of

if you've got the green, go for the TW's, if you want to save a little moolah, you can go with the Y-303's...they are a good low cost aluminum head, and they use stock length pushrods, and standard style rockers...TW's use special length rods, and only a couple of kinds of rockers will play well with them...stay with stock ratio unless you know the pistons you buy will support the extra lift.

rings....go with a good set of moly face rings, don't go low tension, unless you really like to burn oil. break them in, and they should provide years of reliable service

yes, you should upgrade the injectors, the stock 19lber's will work for now, but you'll end up running a little lean even with the pressure cranked...and you'll need to install bigger ones when you put the boost to it later anyway, get ready to buy at least some 36lbers...(it'll keep you from having to use the FMU)

even a mild 306 with aluminum heads and a mild cam can always benefit from some extra fuel flow, so yes, upgrade your fuel system, buy a bigger pump (155 or 190-buy it for your proposed hp level with the blower and be realistic) and an AFPR...

you'll always find little stuff to buy, and its all available to you readily

oh, and if it's available to you, go get it dyno tuned


hope this helps

Thanks so much for the advice.

Can you shed some light on speed density vs. Mass Air Flow? Is MAF better? I just read on another thread that you can use A-trim with SD. Does the MAF conversion make the upgrades I want to make easier/more effective?

 

[txstang84]

SD is a fine fuel management system, but as soon as you start screwing with the manifold vacuum, it won't like you very much. however if you happen to be one of the savvy tuning crowd, or know someone who is, you'd be ok...some people swear by SD, MA is just alot easier for the rest of us, it's easier to bolt on parts, like cams that will typically mess with your manifold vacuum, thus making the puter wonder what the hells going on.

if it were me, I'd just go MA, get a computer, MAF sensor, 24lb squirters, and a mass air conversion kit from ebay, or granatelli, they only take like an hour to two hours (depending on your patience level) to install, and they're easier for alot of us to mess with, and will tolerate more mods without being quite so picky

 

[89CopCoupe]

......

I realize you are on a tight budget right now ...
I also realize you are working with a speed density EFI setup ...
Plus stock '86 pistons don't have valve reliefs .... so I'll make my suggestions under these notions.

First you have to set out a reasonable dollar amount you think this will cost you based on future performance goals.

Block: At 143K it will need to visit a machine shop for the standard tanking, boring, grinding, mic'n, magnafluxing, resurfacing etc, etc ..... $ka-ching$ $ka-ching$
Machine shops are into making money, just like any other business and they will charge you for their labor.
New parts: Then you'll want to buy good friction parts to stuff in the newly prepped block = more $ka-ching$ ....

On this approach you'll end up spending about as much as you would on a DSS balanced 306 shortblock ($1500) and yet not have the original block laying around to do with as you please ...

Then you have the cylinder heads ... at 143K they are going to need attention as well .... and these silly little heads will cut your horsepower production more than any other speed part ...... With the time and money you are going to invest, do you want to do this

GT40 heads give you a little better output, but to step up a few hundred bucks and get some nice AFR's is worth it ...... how much is the extra $ going to intrude on your life when for years you will be rewarded with the extra gains of the AFR's

Go to the wrecking yard and pull the mass air harness and sensors off a '89-'93 car.

Get that E cam and stuff it in your fresh new DSS block

Get a fuel pump ... for $20 more than a stock replacement (88lph) you can buy a 190 .... your factory one will probably fail soon anyways

Eat Top Ramen for a couple of weeks and then buy those 24lb injectors.

Fire it off and make around 285hp and 315tq at the wheels for your trouble ...

Be A lot better than the stock 185/270 for a grand over a stockish rebuild

 

[stang1986GT]

I realize you are on a tight budget right now ...
I also realize you are working with a speed density EFI setup ...
Plus stock '86 pistons don't have valve reliefs .... so I'll make my suggestions under these notions.

First you have to set out a reasonable dollar amount you think this will cost you based on future performance goals.

Block: At 143K it will need to visit a machine shop for the standard tanking, boring, grinding, mic'n, magnafluxing, resurfacing etc, etc ..... $ka-ching$ $ka-ching$
Machine shops are into making money, just like any other business and they will charge you for their labor.
New parts: Then you'll want to buy good friction parts to stuff in the newly prepped block = more $ka-ching$ ....

On this approach you'll end up spending about as much as you would on a DSS balanced 306 shortblock ($1500) and yet not have the original block laying around to do with as you please ...

Then you have the cylinder heads ... at 143K they are going to need attention as well .... and these silly little heads will cut your horsepower production more than any other speed part ...... With the time and money you are going to invest, do you want to do this

GT40 heads give you a little better output, but to step up a few hundred bucks and get some nice AFR's is worth it ...... how much is the extra $ going to intrude on your life when for years you will be rewarded with the extra gains of the AFR's

Go to the wrecking yard and pull the mass air harness and sensors off a '89-'93 car.

Get that E cam and stuff it in your fresh new DSS block

Get a fuel pump ... for $20 more than a stock replacement (88lph) you can buy a 190 .... your factory one will probably fail soon anyways

Eat Top Ramen for a couple of weeks and then buy those 24lb injectors.

Fire it off and make around 285hp and 315tq at the wheels for your trouble ...

Be A lot better than the stock 185/270 for a grand over a stockish rebuild

Makes sense what you are saying. Are AFR heads better/worse/same as twisted wedge? (I know, that's probably a debate).

Will the mods/parts you suggested support and S-trim if I chose to do so down the road?

 

[89CopCoupe]

Makes sense what you are saying. Are AFR heads better/worse/same as twisted wedge? (I know, that's probably a debate).

The AFR's and Wedges are about the same with the Wedges making a little more up top and the 165's making more down low and mid ...
The AFR's also have a thicker head mating deck surface which tends to hold gaskets better when under pressure and also will retain stock valvetrain geometry.

Will the mods/parts you suggested support and S-trim if I chose to do so down the road?

The parts I suggest will support a smaller charger like the S, with the exception being the fuel delivery ... As you probably know, when you increase airflow you need to increase fuel, so bigger injectors will become necessary at that point ... also buy a 255 fuel pump if you do foresee a supercharger down the road.

Also if a sc is definite you might want to consider that when doing the engine build ... so that you buy lower compression pistons and larger cc heads to keep the engine "pump gas friendly" without detonation killing everything you put together

 

[stang1986GT]

The AFR's and Wedges are about the same with the Wedges making a little more up top and the 165's making more down low and mid ...
The AFR's also have a thicker head mating deck surface which tends to hold gaskets better when under pressure and also will retain stock valvetrain geometry.



The parts I suggest will support a smaller charger like the S, with the exception being the fuel delivery ... As you probably know, when you increase airflow you need to increase fuel, so bigger injectors will become necessary at that point ... also buy a 255 fuel pump if you do foresee a supercharger down the road.

Also if a sc is definite you might want to consider that when doing the engine build ... so that you buy lower compression pistons and larger cc heads to keep the engine "pump gas friendly" without detonation killing everything you put together

Ok, thanks again. I was looking at the DSS short blocks, and it looks as if it may be overkill to step up to the Pro Bullitt for what I want. I think the base bullitt would be what I would need with AFR 165 heads, upgraded fuel pump and regulator, MAF conversion, etc., and considering the costs associated with staying with stock block as compared to DSS, what you say makes sense. More questions...what do you think of the Edlebrock RPM Performer heads and intake? Should I go with 1.7 rockers on the heads?? I assume when you buy the heads, they are ready to go once the rockers are installed and everything is adjusted. In your opinion, are stud gurdles necessary?

Sounds like what you and others are saying, this set up would be what I want, being faster than average street car even before a blower, but still very streetabled.

So, in comparison, looks like I'll be into a rebuild in between $3-$4,000, whereas if I go with a DSS short block, AFR heads, new intake and all the supporting parts, I'll be around $5,000. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again for your time and advice guys!

 

[stang1986GT]

SD is a fine fuel management system, but as soon as you start screwing with the manifold vacuum, it won't like you very much. however if you happen to be one of the savvy tuning crowd, or know someone who is, you'd be ok...some people swear by SD, MA is just alot easier for the rest of us, it's easier to bolt on parts, like cams that will typically mess with your manifold vacuum, thus making the puter wonder what the hells going on.

if it were me, I'd just go MA, get a computer, MAF sensor, 24lb squirters, and a mass air conversion kit from ebay, or granatelli, they only take like an hour to two hours (depending on your patience level) to install, and they're easier for alot of us to mess with, and will tolerate more mods without being quite so picky

Hey txstang84...I was looking at the parts section here at stangnet, and the ad I looked at says that the B303 cam is better with a blower. I assume I need something that makes good power up to 6,000 rpm, correct? I've read a couple of places that the E303 isn't that great with a blower, as it doesn't really start coming in until 2,500 rpm. Is this true? As I want a little bit of a rough idle anyway (nothing too violent, as I do want to continue driving it alot), sounds like the B cam may be better. What do you think? (I'm going to print this post and keep it for when I'm ready to start the build).

Also, if I go with a DSS 306 short block as 89CopCoupe suggested, I can be building it and drive the car with the original engine at the same time.

 

[89CopCoupe]

More questions...what do you think of the Edlebrock RPM Performer heads and intake?

They are good, just a step under the TW and AFR, but better than most and made in the U.S.

Should I go with 1.7 rockers on the heads??

The 1.7's will give the valve a little more lift and put the spring a little closer to bind ... the difference isn't that great and hardly noticeable ... I went for 1.6's with my build up ... at .550" lift I didn't need more lift for a street cruiser.

I assume when you buy the heads, they are ready to go once the rockers are installed and everything is adjusted. In your opinion, are stud gurdles necessary?

Not for an average street engine if you use good ARP studs.

So, in comparison, looks like I'll be into a rebuild in between $3-$4,000, whereas if I go with a DSS short block, AFR heads, new intake and all the supporting parts, I'll be around $5,000. Does that sound about right?

The best advice I can give is to FULLY research each part you buy, no matter how insignificant ..... buy it once

Price is hard to say for certain as there are so many variables as to what you are willing to reuse and what you are not ... for example: a water pump or valve covers ...
Price these parts and add them to get your ball park:
*Short block (to rebuild or buy whole?)
*Camshaft
*Timing Chain
*Harmonic balancer
*Water Pump
*Flywheel
*Cylinder Heads
*Valve Covers
*Head Gaskets
*Cylinder Heads
*Head Bolts
*ARP rocker arm studs
*New Lifters
*Pushrods
*Roller Rocker Arms
*Intake
*Injectors
*Fuel Pressure Regulator
*Fuel Pump
*Throttle Body and spacer
*MAF conversion
*Larger MAF
*CAI
*Headers
*New igniton parts: wires, plugs, cap etc
*Misc fluids, shop supplies, broken tools etc

I just know everytime I do a motor swap I usually take my initial figure and add a third to it

When you start seeing the figures (as you have above) then it makes you start to rethink your budget and your power goals ...
As in: ... at $5000 invested, maybe considering bigger stuff for the same price as the smaller stuff is the way to go for you

Base Bullet vs stroker kit assembly?
AFR165's vs 185's?
etc etc

I went bigger when I realized how much I was gonna spend ... and now have a 360rwhp - 370rwtq n/a build that is extremely streetable, passes the sniffer with decent fuel economy and will lay three gears worth of rubber and scratch 4th just by running my foot into it