On a budget.. which motor would you build?

PJC Racing · Dec 29, 2007

whtnotch said:
Stock short block can handle some HP if you loc-wir it up. Throw some boost at it or a wet 100shot thats my next step.

Loc-wire will not help the block handle HP. The main problem with stock blocks is the main webbing.

86bluecobra · Dec 29, 2007

PJC Racing said:
Loc-wire will not help the block handle HP. The main problem with stock blocks is the main webbing.

True but a 351w webbing is pretty substantial. You can throw quite a bit of power at it without worrying to much. The loc-wires will allow you to run more boost or nitrous without spitting a head gasket out.

ttop88 · Dec 29, 2007

Afr165s,gt-40 intake, e- cam,1.7cobra rr's,c&l mass,65mm t-body,24lb inj. went 11.98. That is on a stock short block. GEEEEEEEEE,I wonder what happens if you add a 100 shot? OH and this car had all acc. A/c worked,egr worked,and it had high flow cats. It was smog compliant. It was a great daily driver and just happened to break into the 11's.

Gene K · Dec 29, 2007

Stock C8/C9/D0/D1/D3 Fordd 429/460 Heads all flow in the 270-280 cfm range and can be ported to flow in the 350 cfm (750 bhp) range.

Airflow is power! My choice would be the big block.

Talk to Scotty at http://reincarnation-automotive.com about the options.
He can do a very good set of budget heads ($850) that will make 500 bhp on a basically stock shortblock with a fairly mild hydraulic cam never turning over 6000 rpm. At this level you can run stock rod bolts.

If you want to spin 6500 rpm and make 550 bhp get a set of "Football" Bolt Truck Rods and use the ARP Bolts. Above that you need aftermarket rods. These Rods have a tendency to break at high rpm.

dubbsix · Dec 29, 2007

Gene,

Thanks for the post. I have a full machine shop at my disposal, so porting wouldnt be an issue. They are just waiting on me to make up my freakin mind!

What worries me most is just shoe horning the big block into the engine bay. Honestly, if i do go with the BBF i'll just pay a shop to install it. I dont have enough friends or tools to get that job done!

65ShelbyClone · Dec 30, 2007

If you want a somewhat inexpensive way to make good power that will fit in th engine bay, look into a 393W stroker. It uses the same engine mounts and bellhousing as a 302. On top of that it uses stock 302 pistons, stock 351W rods, and a 393 crank. Then you need an intake, oil pan and swap headers.

460s are easy power, but the engine weighs something like 750lbs, it needs a swap kit, AND a different transmission. Add on all the incidentals too.

If it's a track-only car that will never get smogged, go with a carburetor.

dubbsix · Dec 30, 2007

Still confused

Shelby:

See from your post that you are in the Antelope Valley. So am i. Just moved out here to Lancaster. Anyhow, i wont have the money to buy a stroker kit so i was trying to commit to a engine setup that would yield the most power with the least amount of money invested.

In those terms the 460 seems like the hands down winner, but when you add in the cost of the swap kit, the 460 doesnt seem like such a winner. Alot of people have said just go with the 302 in my engine bay and just do a bolt on job to get into the twelves.

Im thinking about going with some old 302 heads with a smaller combustion chamber to increase compression.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Dec 30, 2007

dubbsix said:
Shelby:

See from your post that you are in the Antelope Valley. So am i. Just moved out here to Lancaster. Anyhow, i wont have the money to buy a stroker kit so i was trying to commit to a engine setup that would yield the most power with the least amount of money invested.

In those terms the 460 seems like the hands down winner, but when you add in the cost of the swap kit, the 460 doesnt seem like such a winner. Alot of people have said just go with the 302 in my engine bay and just do a bolt on job to get into the twelves.

Im thinking about going with some old 302 heads with a smaller combustion chamber to increase compression.

While that does work, you can get a set of better flowing heads and just have them milled down to make the chambers smaller and get the same effect, while keeping the better flow characteristics of the newer heads. Most of the guys i know who run GT40Ps have theirs milled down and get pretty close to 10:1 compression. Just be extra careful with piston to valve clearance since you're taking some of that away. If you have aftermarket pistons you may not have to worry about that so much.

dubbsix · Dec 30, 2007

How much can you mill off ?

How much can you mill from the heads before you run into piston to valve clearance issue? Dont the pistons in the 89 HO's have valve reliefs?

85_SS_302_Coupe · Dec 30, 2007

dubbsix said:
How much can you mill from the heads before you run into piston to valve clearance issue? Dont the pistons in the 89 HO's have valve reliefs?

They have reliefs but with a stock/unmilled head you're gonna be limited to around a .550 lift or so (and of course don't take my word for that, always do a piston to valve clearance check). You could notch the sock pistons more, but i'm not personally a fan of that. People do it and some have great success, it's just not for me. As for how much i honestly can't say....that would be determined by how small you want your chambers to be and i don't really know enough details in that area to say. It would also depend on the heads and what the chambers were in them. You could probably discuss that with the shop doing the work and they could tell you. I'm wanting to say something like 30 thousandths but i can't be sure.

I posted on my local forum....those are the guys i'm referring to. I'll let you know what i find out.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 30, 2007

dubbsix said:
Shelby:

See from your post that you are in the Antelope Valley. So am i. Just moved out here to Lancaster. Anyhow, i wont have the money to buy a stroker kit so i was trying to commit to a engine setup that would yield the most power with the least amount of money invested.

In those terms the 460 seems like the hands down winner, but when you add in the cost of the swap kit, the 460 doesnt seem like such a winner. Alot of people have said just go with the 302 in my engine bay and just do a bolt on job to get into the twelves.

Im thinking about going with some old 302 heads with a smaller combustion chamber to increase compression.

Hey, another local! Too bad LACR closed down, huh? I still haven't run my '68 and I know it's capable of easy 12s. Now the closest track is Famoso in Bakersfield.

I guess to nail down a good engine plan, we need to know an approximate budget. If it's low enough, a nitrous kit may be the most likely option.

dubbsix · Dec 30, 2007

Actual budget?

It sure does suck that they took away the local track. Im hoping that the LACR people can work something out before my car is ready

So as far as the engine goes i would like to limit it to 3,000.00. I still have to have my trans rebuilt to handle the power: I have the stock AOD and a C6 incase i go with the 460. I have about 1500 budgeted for the transmission. the rest im still working on.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Dec 30, 2007

dubbsix,

I just got a reply from two guys that i know for a fact have run 12.50s and faster on these heads, and they both advised .030 off of GT40Ps and said that should put you right around 10:1 compression on stock pistons. Hope that helps.

dubbsix · Dec 30, 2007

thanks for checking

Sweet. Thanks.

Gene K · Dec 31, 2007

85_SS_302_Coupe said:
dubbsix,

I just got a reply from two guys that i know for a fact have run 12.50s and faster on these heads, and they both advised .030 off of GT40Ps and said that should put you right around 10:1 compression on stock pistons. Hope that helps.

If you decide to go 351W consider machining it for the factory
hyd roller setup and buying a used set of GT40P already set up
with the right springs.

You can get very good deals that include"P" Headers form Fox-Body
Guys stepping up to Aluminum Heads. There are also alll sorts of deals
to be had on used 5.0/5.8 Hyd Roller Cams. Used Roller Cams are a
whole different issue over used flat tappet. They rarely have bad lobes.

I know these heads get no respect but....

These heads can run anywhere from 13.30 to 11.50 on a 302-311" engine
Thats unported. From stock cam to a full NMRA F/S setup.
Just depends on how well the entire combo is sorted.
They could make a serious torque monster on a 351W with a used F-Cam
especially if the have a little light work by someone who knows what their doing.
A used Stage 2 TFS cam would be even better.

Gene K · Dec 31, 2007

85_SS_302_Coupe said:
dubbsix,

I just got a reply from two guys that i know for a fact have run 12.50s and faster on these heads, and they both advised .030 off of GT40Ps and said that should put you right around 10:1 compression on stock pistons. Hope that helps.

If you decide to go 351W consider machining it for the factory
hyd roller setup and buying a used set of GT40P already set up
with the right springs.

You can get very good deals that include"P" Headers from Fox-Body
Guys stepping up to Aluminum Heads. There are also all sorts of deals
to be had on used 5.0/5.8 Hyd Roller Cams. Used Roller Cams are a
whole different issue over used flat tappet. They rarely have bad lobes.

I know these heads get no respect but....

These heads can run anywhere from 13.30 to 11.50 on a 302-311" engine
Thats unported. From stock cam to a full NMRA F/S setup.
Just depends on how well the entire combo is sorted.
They could make a serious torque monster on a 351W with a used F-Cam
especially if the have a little light work by someone who knows what their doing.
A used Stage 2 TFS cam would be even better.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Dec 31, 2007

Yeah they're the cheap ticket to easy 12s around here. All you really need to do is get an Explorer block, throw a decent intake and carb on it (although a lot of the EFI guys just run the stock Explorer intake too), stick a cam and some headers on the engine and that's that. Add traction and drive it like you stole it and you're there.

dubbsix · Jan 1, 2008

decision

awe guys i still have no clue to what im gonna do about this mustang 5.0. The 460 is seductive because of the massive power potential, but it seems that there is still life in my stock 302.. atleast enough to get me into the 12's. The only questions.. is how much life is left on the stock block. If i have to rebuild the stock block, then i'll go for something bigger... stronger.

I think its gonna be the 460, stock stroke with the fox swap kit.

NKau · Jan 1, 2008

dubbsix said:
awe guys i still have no clue to what im gonna do about this mustang 5.0. The 460 is seductive because of the massive power potential, but it seems that there is still life in my stock 302.. atleast enough to get me into the 12's. The only questions.. is how much life is left on the stock block. If i have to rebuild the stock block, then i'll go for something bigger... stronger.

I think its gonna be the 460, stock stroke with the fox swap kit.

A half dozen guys have chimed in and told you how to run 12's with a 302. It will cost very little to refresh your stock shortblock if neccessary. Simply installing new bearings and re-ringing your factory pistons is pretty cheap.

The cost of building a 460 and installing it in a fox makes it fairly cost ineffective IMO. You haven't even factored in the cost of putting in a different tranny to run a 460 or beefing up your 8.8" rear end.

Take a piece of paper, and start pricing everything you will need to have done to get a 460 into the car. Do the same thing for your current 302. Next, report your findings back to us, and tell us which way you think is easier and cheaper to run mid 12's.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Jan 1, 2008

Nobody has mentioned that it's a huge pain in the ass to get a Mustang with a 460 to hook up at the track. You'll end up with a weight balance of around 65/35 to the front, and even with a serious drag shock setup you're gonna be hard pressed to transfer that weight to the back. Maybe if you build a 4 link for the rear end and mini-tub it.

Yeah big blocks can make big power. My buddy has a '69 Nova with a 545ci Merlin big block, it makes 793hp all motor on pump gas and runs 9s. It could probably run 8s if it would hook. He's even told me that if he could do it again he would've stroked a 350 and ran a turbo.

On a budget.. which motor would you build?

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