PCV Trouble.. Getting Oil In TB and Intake!!!

[KDK1988GT]

Hey I'm having trouble with oil getting sucked up into the Throttle body and intake... I was not having this trouble last year.. this winter I changed intakes from Cobra Upper and lower to Holley SysteMAX setup... I also put a vent on valve cover breather.. in the valve cover I have the baffel... and I got a steeda oil separator that runs between the PCV and the intake.

I have the hose that runs between the Throttle body and valve cover off and those two places pluged off..

What might be causing me the trouble? What could I do? Here are a couple things that I might try...

1. Leak Down Test.....
2. Change the oil to a more heavy weight... I'm running Moble 5w30 Synthetic right now
3. Vent the PCV ?? What can I use and how should I do it?

Thanks for any suggestions and help...

 

[HELLION306]

sounds like you forgot to put the shield under the intake by the pcv.its held on with 2 screws.it diverts the oil away and only allows the crankcase pressure/fumes out.need to see if you have any left over parts and or pull intake back off.

 

[KDK1988GT]

man oh man

oh man! I think u nailed it on the head... this sheild goes on the lower intake right ? Man I can't beleive that I forgot to do this....


Oh well off with the intakes again and all the other parts that are attached to them....

 

[HISSIN50]

You might end up with an unmetered air issue with a breather. Just make sure you keep the air flow bi-directional.

Good luck.

 

[KDK1988GT]

You might end up with an unmetered air issue with a breather. Just make sure you keep the air flow bi-directional.

Good luck.

OK thanks

 

[jimilane]

I had that kind of problem with everything in place correctly. I just have a higher compression than stock. The engine was sucking a couple of quarts through the intake everyt 500 miles and the oil low light was coming on.

Solution that worked......

Three pcv valves TOTAL in line with and including the stock pcv. Make srue though that you still have a little suction at the line below the oil filler cap. If you don't, the engine will evantually stall due to the pressure building up and not being released.

Jim

 

[Hink]

I had that kind of problem with everything in place correctly. I just have a higher compression than stock. The engine was sucking a couple of quarts through the intake everyt 500 miles and the oil low light was coming on.

Solution that worked......

Three pcv valves TOTAL in line with and including the stock pcv. Make srue though that you still have a little suction at the line below the oil filler cap. If you don't, the engine will evantually stall due to the pressure building up and not being released.

Jim

Hi, Jim if youv'e got any pictures of your pvc setup , could you please post them in the http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?p=6248714&posted=1#post6248714
Would be interested in any info you would like to share
TIA ,
Hink

 

[jimilane]

Yeah, I could take some pictures of it if you want. It's an easy set up, and it's still on the car doing well by the way.

I have never tried to figure out how to put pics on here. IT might be compitcated for me to try.

I can email some pictures and then you can do with them what you want, post them. call them yours, whatever. The main thing is that it works! And it saves a lot of headaches for this kind of problem.

Basically, there is too much manifold pressure caused by the blowby from the pistons. And there isn't to much to do about it....EXCEPT put more valves in line to "step down" manifiold presure. Another thing to watch for when putting the manifold on, it to seal the BOTTOM of the intake seal to head seal.OR rather UNDER the intake seal. I seal it from the inside and outside. I put a line of silicone and oil stopped getting in the cylinders.

Basically, one PCV goes where it should, attached to the manifold, then the next one in line about 4 or 5 inches along, then another four for five inches another one. That finally stopped it. I've been running that way a long time with NO problems.

Since then I have changed to a E303 cam. The engine still has the exact same problem, that's not a problem anymore.

I'll try to find your address here and send you the pics if I can['t figure out how to post them.

Have a nice day and I hope something I dreamed up actually helps someone. It's cheaper than tearing it apart to check the rings visually, that's for sure.

 

[jimilane]

Yeah, I could take some pictures of it if you want. It's an easy set up, and it's still on the car doing well by the way.

I have never tried to figure out how to put pics on here. IT might be compitcated for me to try.

I can email some pictures and then you can do with them what you want, post them. call them yours, whatever. The main thing is that it works! And it saves a lot of headaches for this kind of problem.

Basically, there is too much manifold pressure caused by the blowby from the pistons. And there isn't to much to do about it....EXCEPT put more valves in line to "step down" manifiold presure. Another thing to watch for when putting the manifold on, it to seal the BOTTOM of the intake seal to head seal.OR rather UNDER the intake seal. I seal it from the inside and outside. I put a line of silicone and oil stopped getting in the cylinders.

Basically, one PCV goes where it should, attached to the manifold, then the next one in line about 4 or 5 inches along, then another four for five inches another one. That finally stopped it. I've been running that way a long time with NO problems.

Since then I have changed to a E303 cam. The engine still has the exact same problem, that's not a problem anymore.

I'll try to find your address here and send you the pics if I can['t figure out how to post them.

Have a nice day and I hope something I dreamed up actually helps someone. It's cheaper than tearing it apart to check the rings visually, that's for sure.

 

[Mopar1]

I had that kind of problem with everything in place correctly. I just have a higher compression than stock. The engine was sucking a couple of quarts through the intake everyt 500 miles and the oil low light was coming on.

Solution that worked......

Three pcv valves TOTAL in line with and including the stock pcv. Make srue though that you still have a little suction at the line below the oil filler cap. If you don't, the engine will evantually stall due to the pressure building up and not being released.

Jim

Are you saying three PCV's using one hose.

i.e. stock pcv-5" vac hose-pcv-5"vac hose- pcv-5" vac hose.

or

3 pcv's at different locations (stock, valve cover, and valve cover)

 

[jimilane]

Are you saying three PCV's using one hose.

i.e. stock pcv-5" vac hose-pcv-5"vac hose- pcv-5" vac hose.

or

3 pcv's at different locations (stock, valve cover, and valve cover)

YES. All ON ONE HOSE. You just have to make sure you don't put too many or it will be like you are plugging it altogether.

The way you tell that you have the right amount of PCVs is when the suction from the hose on the oil filler tube starts to go down. There should only be a little pull, just enough to hole a small peice of paper over the hole on the tube connected to the oil filler neck. It is through this tube that the engine gets the airflow so it can evacuate the windage/blowby from the pistons. It has to breath somehow. You can use a valve cover opening to get the air too. You just need to have the air being sucked from the stock spot on the manifold. Of course you can rig up whatever you want, but air has to have a way in, and a way out. You can install an air pump to do this, but not many people want to worry with this unless you are racing for money.

JIM

 

[Mopar1]

YES. All ON ONE HOSE. You just have to make sure you don't put too many or it will be like you are plugging it altogether.



JIM

cool, thanks

 

[vristang]

YES. All ON ONE HOSE. You just have to make sure you don't put too many or it will be like you are plugging it altogether.

The way you tell that you have the right amount of PCVs is when the suction from the hose on the oil filler tube starts to go down. There should only be a little pull, just enough to hole a small peice of paper over the hole on the tube connected to the oil filler neck. It is through this tube that the engine gets the airflow so it can evacuate the windage/blowby from the pistons. It has to breath somehow. You can use a valve cover opening to get the air too. You just need to have the air being sucked from the stock spot on the manifold. Of course you can rig up whatever you want, but air has to have a way in, and a way out. You can install an air pump to do this, but not many people want to worry with this unless you are racing for money.

JIM

You have some sound thinking going on here, but I have another thought to achieve the same goal.

Another way to limit the airflow into the crankcase would be to use a restrictor on the TB/VC hose. This would restrict the volume of fresh air being pulled into the crankcase during high manifold vac conditions, but would also allow full crankcase pressure flow through a singel pcv valve.
I would worry that under high crnakcase pressure conditions the restriction due to the triple pcv setup would not allow pressure to vent adequately. This would then result in blown seals and gaskets.

Good to see some thought going on out there
jason

 

[jimilane]

You have some sound thinking going on here, but I have another thought to achieve the same goal.

Another way to limit the airflow into the crankcase would be to use a restrictor on the TB/VC hose. This would restrict the volume of fresh air being pulled into the crankcase during high manifold vac conditions, but would also allow full crankcase pressure flow through a singel pcv valve.
I would worry that under high crnakcase pressure conditions the restriction due to the triple pcv setup would not allow pressure to vent adequately. This would then result in blown seals and gaskets.

Good to see some thought going on out there
jason

I think that as crankcase pressure rises faster than the PCV can get rid of it, it will vent through the tb/vc hose and you will get oil in the TB. Then a restriction in the tb/vc will be hurting you and pressure will build and you'll start loosing oil out a seal or valve cover grommet or something.
You have to get the blowby out of the crankcase somehow.

If you limit the airflow in, pressure will build up, a negative pressure that will release when you take the oil cap off, or switch off the engine. Limiting the airflow in was not the answer. Actually, just leaving the oil cap off will give the best results, but you smell the oil.

I tried several setups. That's where the PCVs came in. For some reason it keeps the oil out of the intake and makes the car run smooth all the time. The tubes eventually get a little oil coating, but nothing you would call "oil consumption". They don't drip when I take them off. Oh yeah, I put a glass gas filter inline after the PCVs so I could tell if oil was getting in there, it wasn't. The car WAS getting the low oil light after about 500 miles of driving. That's using a lot of oil. It works pretty good with just two PCVs, smoke stopped coming out the tailpipe, but three PCVs stopped all the oil from being sucked into the intake.

I also tried a valve on the PCV line for vaccum regulation with just one PCV. It doesn't work. You have to have the valve almost all the way closed for it to start limiting manifold vaccum. Maybe a better valve would work. But my solution works and you don't have to worry about it any more. Some people use catch cans, But you either smell them or have to empty them. I tried all that too.

The manifold pressure on this car stays around 16 idle. The problem I had was that oil was getting sucked into the intake through the PCV. The rings are a little "leaky" on this car and the static compression is 180, but it takes 5 revolutions to get the compression up, the first revolution will only get about 60 psi if I remember right, so it's the rings. Plus the car smokes a little. This car is my girlfriends and driven all the time. There have been no further problems. I did this mod a while back.

This isn't my car, if it was, I would just re-ring.
Jim

 

[vristang]

I think that as crankcase pressure rises faster than the PCV can get rid of it, it will vent through the tb/vc hose and you will get oil in the TB. Then a restriction in the tb/vc will be hurting you and pressure will build and you'll start loosing oil out a seal or valve cover grommet or something.
You have to get the blowby out of the crankcase somehow.

If you limit the airflow in, pressure will build up, a negative pressure that will release when you take the oil cap off, or switch off the engine. Limiting the airflow in was not the answer. Actually, just leaving the oil cap off will give the best results, but you smell the oil.

Jim

Can you re-phrase this, I am having trouble following.
It seems like maybe we are using the same argument to support different conclusions?
Also, keep in mind that there is no negative pressure. Just reading the phrase is confusing. You are talking about vacuum, which is not really a "negative pressure" Intake vac is measured in inches of mercury.
I am not trying to be argumentative, I just want to clear up the details of what you are expressing.

From what I have gathered in reading what does and does not work for others, the idea is to increase the volume flow of crankcase gasses and/or decrease the velocity of the crankcase gasses.
This works for the following reason...
When the velocity of the crankcase gasses slow, the heavy oil molecules are able to settle out of the crankcase gasses.
This is what has been achieved by multiple breather caps on Carb applications for many years. Multiple vents allow greater volumes of airflow.

I guess I see the triple pcv setup as a restriction to the flow of crankcase gasses, which would allow a build up of crankcase pressure.
If this is the case then you are reliant upon the TB/VC hose to purge crankcase pressure.
This is not what the TB/VC line was designed for. This line is too far removed from the crankase to be an ideal vent location. Also, purging crankcase gasses upstream of the TB will result in oil saturation the TB (even under the best conditions there will still be some oil vapor mixed in with the crankcase gasses, along with other nasty stuff). Eventually the TB will gum up.

Again I don't think that our arguments are all that differnt, but somehow we come up with different conclustions.

jason

 

[90lxfoxbody]

this has become a very popular topic of discussion here on stangnet.....

I was having the same problem and I installed an air / oil seperator and an inline filter between the oil filler neck and the throttle body. I have driven the car about fize or six hundred miles since installing the seperator and filter, and have had absolutely zero blowby since. Since my car is almost 17 years old with over 400,000 miles on it, I check the oil at least weekly out of habit, and now when I do I drain the seperator canister at the same time. Here is a pic of the inline filter I installed. One of the reasons I installed this was because I found some oil accumulation in the spacer between the throttle body and the intake, and I know I was getting oil into the intake, and thusly the engine. So far it has worked great. Especially for less than forty bucks total.

 

[vristang]

I was having the same problem and I installed an air / oil seperator and an inline filter between the oil filler neck and the throttle body. I have driven the car about fize or six hundred miles since installing the seperator and filter, and have had absolutely zero blowby since. Since my car is almost 17 years old with over 400,000 miles on it, I check the oil at least weekly out of habit, and now when I do I drain the seperator canister at the same time. Here is a pic of the inline filter I installed. One of the reasons I installed this was because I found some oil accumulation in the spacer between the throttle body and the intake, and I know I was getting oil into the intake, and thusly the engine. So far it has worked great. Especially for less than forty bucks total.

Yeah this is a very hot topic here. lol

Are you actually seeing accumulation in the TB/VC hose?
I ask because from my experience oil entering the upper intake from the pcv can cause oil to collect throughout the upper intake. This includes right up to the TB.
The reason is that the flow inside the intake is not uniform. Reversion as the valves close is a good example.

I guess I am asking if the oil was actually coming from the TB/VC hose, or from the pcv?
I would suspect that if you have a baffle on the valve cover, you are not collecting any oil in the TB/VC separator.

jason

 

[jimilane]

Can you re-phrase this, I am having trouble following.
It seems like maybe we are using the same argument to support different conclusions?
Also, keep in mind that there is no negative pressure. Just reading the phrase is confusing. You are talking about vacuum, which is not really a "negative pressure" Intake vac is measured in inches of mercury.
I am not trying to be argumentative, I just want to clear up the details of what you are expressing.

From what I have gathered in reading what does and does not work for others, the idea is to increase the volume flow of crankcase gasses and/or decrease the velocity of the crankcase gasses.
This works for the following reason...
When the velocity of the crankcase gasses slow, the heavy oil molecules are able to settle out of the crankcase gasses.
This is what has been achieved by multiple breather caps on Carb applications for many years. Multiple vents allow greater volumes of airflow.

I guess I see the triple pcv setup as a restriction to the flow of crankcase gasses, which would allow a build up of crankcase pressure.
If this is the case then you are reliant upon the TB/VC hose to purge crankcase pressure.
This is not what the TB/VC line was designed for. This line is too far removed from the crankase to be an ideal vent location. Also, purging crankcase gasses upstream of the TB will result in oil saturation the TB (even under the best conditions there will still be some oil vapor mixed in with the crankcase gasses, along with other nasty stuff). Eventually the TB will gum up.

Again I don't think that our arguments are all that differnt, but somehow we come up with different conclustions.

jason

Yeah, negative pressure really wasn't a great term. I was meaning a vacuum.

About the 3 PCV setup. There isn't any oil in the throttle body now or the line from the filler tube to the throttle body. Before it was dripping with oil. There is plenty of vacuum and to get rid of the crankcase gasses. When I was using just one PCV, there was so much air being sucked through the TB tube that it would leave imprints on my finger from the vacuum. Putting the multiple PCVs cut back the vacuum at the TB tube to a normal level. I checked other Mustangs to check the vacuum at the TB tube and matched up the vacuum the best I could without the crankcase venting through the TB tube. Since there is no oil in the TB I guess it's doing ok. When the PCV clogs up, oil will get in the TB, most of the time.

I tried to regulate the air going into the engine with a valve in the TB tube. To get things to run right, you would have to vary the position of the valve as the pressure in the engine changed. That didn't work too good unless you maintained a set RPM, pretty much.

I tried reversing the flow. I put an open tube in the PCV hole and a PCV in the TB tube. This didn't work either. Crankcase gasses always flowed OUT the PCV hole. There wasn't enough vacuum for it to work that way.

One other thing that did work, although dangerous, was to ust put a tube from the PCV hole into the wheel well. This worked fine, but created a bad smell and small drops of oil on the ground under the car. So I routed the hose ens near the air filter to take the gasses back into the engine. This worked for the smell, but drops of oil were still left behind. I wouldn't recommend this modification due to a build up of dangerous gasses in the crankcase which could just blow up everything...

By the way, the first PCV is the stock one. The next two are for a 454 engine.

Hope this explains a little better. The main thing is that the crankcase IS venting properly and not using the TB tube as a vent.

Thanks
Jim

 

[vristang]

There is plenty of vacuum and to get rid of the crankcase gasses.

At idle there is. When you are at WOT in upper RPMs there is no vacuum from the intake, and this is when crankcase pressure is highest.
I fear that by restricting airflow out of the crankcase at this moment will result in a blown seal/gasket.
Three PCV valves in series will be more of a restriction than one.
Maybe you will find the dipstick will be pushed out of its tube after a series of wot redline runs?

I tried to regulate the air going into the engine with a valve in the TB tube. To get things to run right, you would have to vary the position of the valve as the pressure in the engine changed. That didn't work too good unless you maintained a set RPM, pretty much.

You have a concept somewhat mixed up here. Under nearly all conditions air does not flow from the valve cover to the TB. This line is meant as a fresh air intake line. The fresh air helps pull contaminants from the crankcase vapors.
If there is a vac signal in the intake, then air is flowing from the TB into the VC.
The only time this would not be true is if there were very large amounts of blowby. When blowby has reached this level, oil control is the least of your worries

Nothing personal,
But the more I think about this setup, the more I don't like it.

jason

 

[blackcloud50]

This is how pcv works and how crankcase is ventilated during different driving conditions.