Pokageek's Pain thread. 351 stroker (414c.i.) swap PROBLEMS.

#101
Dude, your insane for stacking washers up like that. The bar has more tension on it that you realize. Your asking for a disaster and quite frankly you should be arrested for attempting a stunt like that. People with family and kids are in danger when that thing decides to rip apart and you end up driving over it and launching your car into oncoming traffic. DO NOT DO THIS PEOPLE!!

There is a better way. You need a welder and some heavy walled box tubing to achieve this. You need to add a gusset from the bottom to the top and build that area up structurally. I am not trying to bash you here, I am trying to save someones life. Would some of you other guys PLEASE respond and back me up on this so this driver, innocent people, and Mustang are not injured. Cheap, easy, and homemade in the realm of suspension modifications equal dangerous.
 
#104
madams74 said:
Dude, your insane for stacking washers up like that. The bar has more tension on it that you realize. Your asking for a disaster and quite frankly you should be arrested for attempting a stunt like that. People with family and kids are in danger when that thing decides to rip apart and you end up driving over it and launching your car into oncoming traffic. DO NOT DO THIS PEOPLE!!

There is a better way. You need a welder and some heavy walled box tubing to achieve this. You need to add a gusset from the bottom to the top and build that area up structurally. I am not trying to bash you here, I am trying to save someones life. Would some of you other guys PLEASE respond and back me up on this so this driver, innocent people, and Mustang are not injured. Cheap, easy, and homemade in the realm of suspension modifications equal dangerous.
Click to expand...
i'm going to see if i can get some solid spacers made up

fwiw, the holes are exactly 3" apart, center to center, and the bolts are 3/16".
 
#106
Time for a recap of what drove me the MOST insane:

1. Time Waiting: 6 months to get the engine in car. That drove me nuts. I never suggested I wanted it quicker but should have.

2. Canton oil pan does not fit 94/95, swaybar hits. Had to RE-PULL THE ENGINE AND TAKE OFF OIL PAN!!! Had to buy another swaybar and got spacers from mootang I think it was. This was a small yet tremendous help!

3. PP fuel rail leaked like hell. Garbage.

4. ENGINE ROTATING BUT NO START!! After getting spark, I went to start the car but it rotated sounding like a saw blade with no compression! Had to pay a friend $200 to help adjust rocker arms correctly.

5. This still drives me nuts at stop lights. 94/95 runs rough with the cam that is in my car. Not a cool rough but a stumble like rough. Still sounds good just ...well whatever.

6. Squealing accufab tb. This kills the ride and the joy entirely. EVERY time u step on gas. I need to ditch it. $300 down the hole.

7. Harmonic balancer NOT compatible with frpp crank pulley. This made me spit my belts out like chewing gum. Went thru numerous belts trying to fix. Turned out SEVERAL pulleys were out of line. I couldn't relax cuz anywhere I went it would start to overheat and I knew I pooped my belt again.

8. MAF improperly tuned - cost me $150 in oxygen sensors. "When she warms up and on the beltway for a bit, it begins to run rough and really buck below 2k rpm..like it is on 7 cylinders and the check engine lights up. But when I got off the b-way, check engine light turned off again but still runs ruff When I start it up though, for the first few minutes it runs smooth.."

9. Belts continually coming off..never know when its going to kill my engine by overheating. Frustrating to even drive it. needed help with this and my builder was overwhelmed with business and could not make it down. This went on for literally months but when I had him do the rear he looked at it and found pulleys out of alignment and corrected. Never had trouble since.

10. Dyno trouble: Car puts out 300rwhp .. on first DYNO. VERY disappointing. $250 for a tune that squeaks every ounce out of the car to get me to 332rwhp..@4600rpm barely over a mild 331c.i. combo ... After all that.

11. Dyno shop suggests victor intake instead of pp because of large c.i. engine. Took 2 months to get it from supplier. Shell out another $650 for new intake and dyno... $250 for a tune... results...352rwhp. Very disappointing.

12. Distributor gear breaks in traffic, people screaming as I am going downhill backwards on a road with no shoulder. $200 tow to my house. $200 tow from friend up to SGS automotive to have them fix and figure out why no power. Replace distr gear and find out car has solid lifters when it should have hydraulic. Springs are too weak for cam. $1000 bill not including parts. Car puts out...350rwhp. That's right. LESS...

13. Everyone now thinks the heads are killing it. I shell out another $2000 for those. Put them on the car. I need 42# injectors cuz the 36# leave me no room to grow. Results remain to be seen on next dyno. I'll make another $300 trip up there again.

14. Prolly one of the main morals of this story is that my goal was to get a streeter to over 400rwhp. Do not try this with inexpensive heads unless you plan on porting them. The pro-comps were an unknown. We now know they might work fine for a 302. Forget a 414 c.i.

Morals:

A. Get good heads or don't expect the rwhp.

B. Find MORE than one KNOWLEDGEABLE source that is LOCAL to help you out along the way. If you are waiting on one person..you might be waiting a lonnggg time to get @#$% done bec of life's circumstances. The more reputable the builder, the tougher the time constraints.

C. Anything other than 302 based plan on adding $2500 over and above.

D. Supporting mods will choke your hp out if they aren't matched.

E. Be VERY clear as to what you want from your builder from day one. This includes rwhp and time tables and $$. If your builder is not sure if cost cutting parts will get you to your goal, don't expect to reach your goal. Only sure way is $$$ parts.
 
#109
Wow!!!!, I can't believe all the problems!!! Unbelievable......:(

The pulley alignment sucks but I have dealt with that on motor swaps before and should not have been that big of an issue.....My Vortech pulley stuck out to far with my ATI dampner, ....solution was 5min on a lathe from my machinist cost $0. I just measured how far it was off and had him machine it. These are things that just happen and you had bad luck but why did you have to wait months for someone else to fix?

#12- distributor gear breaking? So what was the cause of that?? Something is wrong, I have Never had one break, what did they do besides replace it? If that’s all they did then it will happen again.
Then you say it has solid lifters and it should have hyd?? So how did this happen?? So you have a solid lifter camshaft that you didn't know about? When you adjusted your rockers didn’t you know then when the friend helped you? You have to adjust solids with the recommend lash specs for the cam….if this is not right it can idle bad like you are still describing. You have to adjust solids all the time not like hydraulics that you do one time. So you had some shop change your valve springs to match your solid lifter cam?

I take it that you had some shop build your engine?? Boy I would never use them again...they put in the wrong cam, the dist gear breaks.

Anyway I didn't read all that has happened in this thread I'm just commenting on the list you just posted. By the way I had a Canton pan and with a Griggs K- member and Saleen has a different front sway bar that is much bigger I never had a problem hitting. Weird.

I really feel for you and all the problems, but for other people I hope this doesn’t scare them off from the swap. They don’t all go this bad. I think you have had Murphy’s luck on this, “What could go wrong will go wrong”

I have said before on this forum for big cube motors you will spend the extra money on the Heads. Cams cost the same. Intakes might be a little more but you have to go big. People always go big on a 302 but not on a 400+ cube stroker?? I don’t know why? Get big head’s, cam, &intake. You will still make more bottom end than a 302. This has been my advice for years on big cube motors, hopefully people will listen after all your problems. The other thing is good machine work, I can’t stress this enough and if they are assembling your motor you would be better off using someone you know you can trust even if it costs more it actually will cost less in the long run. 400hp should be No problem for a 408, 414, etc.

Again I do really feel for you a lot of people would have given up. I think its great that you are posting all the problems so others can avoid them:nice:. I sure wish you lived by me so I could have given you a hand on all this.
 
#110
"The pulley alignment sucks but I have dealt with that on motor swaps before and should not have been that big of an issue.....My Vortech pulley stuck out to far with my ATI dampner, ....solution was 5min on a lathe from my machinist cost $0. I just measured how far it was off and had him machine it. These are things that just happen and you had bad luck but why did you have to wait months for someone else to fix?" -

Exactly. Whatever I did wouldn't work after multiple tries so I had no option and didn't want to shell out more $$. My builder was an expert at this and did very nice work on other cars and said he could do it. He got busy tho.

"#12- distributor gear breaking? So what was the cause of that?? Something is wrong, I have Never had one break, what did they do besides replace it? If that’s all they did then it will happen again."

SGS fixed it by putting a bronze gear on it. Stronger. Moral - there is apparently don't buy a distributor from salvo, or buy a better gear. Heavy cams apparently EAT stock dist gears..at least mine did. I bought the distributor so other than no one telling me, that was really no one's fault.

"Then you say it has solid lifters and it should have hyd?? So how did this happen?? So you have a solid lifter camshaft that you didn't know about? When you adjusted your rockers didn’t you know then when the friend helped you? You have to adjust solids with the recommend lash specs for the cam….if this is not right it can idle bad like you are still describing. You have to adjust solids all the time not like hydraulics that you do one time. So you had some shop change your valve springs to match your solid lifter cam?"

No it had a hydraulic camshaft but the assembler put solid lifters in the engine. I KNEW something was wrong when I only had 1/8 of a turn in the rocker adjustment and when trying to start there was no compression.. They told me lots of cars only have 1/16 of a turn for play. I didn't think that sounded right but I took their word for it. So I drove the car around for 3 months not knowing it had the wrong lifters. When it wasn't putting down enough power, I took it to SGS automotive who told me the car had solid lifters, the wrong push rods and weak springs. I was beyond pissed... :mad: The builder tried to make good on it and he was a cool guy other than being busier than a 1 legged man in a gang fight. He should have paid more attention, he knows it, he tried to make good on it so I can't fault him for that. -

"The other thing is good machine work, I can’t stress this enough and if they are assembling your motor you would be better off using someone you know you can trust even if it costs more it actually will cost less in the long run."

Yes I am sure they do good machine work. Thanks for the props. -
 
#111
so are you on the road again or what?

lord knows i had more than my fair share of frustrations too, but they were mostly due to the manual to automatic conversion that went bad. it put me back almost a whole year and ended up costing me like 4 grand when it was ll said and done. talk about being bummed ... i'm right there with ya bro.

i still don't regret doing the swap though ... i would just do it completely differently if i were to do it again
 
#112
Forgive me if I missed it but whats the reason the powers so down? THere are people in factory stock classes with a 306 and stock heads putting out numbers close to that. I figured you would have been hovering at or above 400 with those cubes.
 
#114
Source of my power down issue is supposedly down because I had pro-comp heads on it that are great for 302's and suck for 414's. .. Well see...

It is on the road but not running tip top because it needs a tune for the new AFR 205cc heads, and for the new 42# injectors and a once look over after installing it all. I also bought an MSD 6A ignition box for greater spark. I have the 36# in it right now until I take it up for tune.
 
#115
Pokageek said:
"
No it had a hydraulic camshaft but the assembler put solid lifters in the engine. I KNEW something was wrong when I only had 1/8 of a turn in the rocker adjustment and when trying to start there was no compression.. They told me lots of cars only have 1/16 of a turn for play. I didn't think that sounded right but I took their word for it. So I drove the car around for 3 months not knowing it had the wrong lifters. When it wasn't putting down enough power, I took it to SGS automotive who told me the car had solid lifters, the wrong push rods and weak springs. I was beyond pissed... :mad: The builder tried to make good on it and he was a cool guy other than being busier than a 1 legged man in a gang fight. He should have paid more attention, he knows it, he tried to make good on it so I can't fault him for that. I was severely pissed tho.
Click to expand...

WOW.........You are so lucky. What if it was a spiral lock on a wrist pin that he didn't get in right because he was distracted and it came loose and ruined you block, crank, piston broke and took out the oil pump and etc,etc. You get the point.

I would NEVER EVER let him touch, or even look at my car closer than 100ft away!!

You might think this seems harsh and you became kinda "Buddies" when he was doing the work etc........reality is he was your buddy as long as you paid him money. You won't be hanging out on Sat night drinking beer with this guy. This is the kind of thing that once it happens you cut all ties.

I had a shop tune mine on the Dyno...they sell Turbo kits for Mustangs that they design make and sell nationwide. If you are a Turbo guy you have heard of them. The owner leaned my DFI out with 1 key stroke....after the pull I pointed out the A.F.ratio he said oh yeah I'll go the other way....he then leaned it out again......cracked 6 pistons!!!:mad:.
So you think I will ever go there again or have anything good to say about him or his business?? Maybe he was having a bad day I don't care, he was too busy I don't care.

Some guy who puts the wrong lifters in and then tells you that there is alot of cars with a 1/16 of a turn of play is an idiot.

I would find another machine shop, I went to 4 of them before I picked one. It was unreal the differences.....the worst one was recommended by a guy at work and said they had built motors for the Indy 500!! (Yeah Right!) Then when I told the guy at work that I think the guy who runs the shop does not have a clue, the buddy at work gets all pissed at me. That would have been an expensive lesson if I would have used him.

On your parts that you pick for you engine...yours is 28% larger than stock...so if stock cubes you would run a 165AFR head well add 46 to that (28%) and you come up with 211. So your 205's are the Min head I would run. Also you need a cam that will keep up with the cubes. I don't know what you are running but too small a cam will kill the HP also. It will have a lot of torque then go dead after 4k. And get the biggest intake you can!!
 
#117
Thanks guys. -

Thanks for the input S351. I have never heard of the 28% calc u did but sounds good to me. I was going to go 225 but he said go 205. So here's my stuff:

Here are my specs, please add you opinion on cam:

414ci 10.45:1comp

Hyd Roller CAM SPECS @ .050" .586/.584 248/254 108cl 112lsa (power will be around 3200-6500rpm)

AFR 205cc heads. I am not sure what springs come with them. The heads are new.

1.60" Rockers

Edelbrock VICTOR intake

80mm TB

90mm Lightning MAF

42# inj to be installed day of dyno

stock rails

255 lph FUEL PUMP
 
#118
The cam specs sound good! I'm running pretty much the same thing.

I have no idea if the solid lifters could have caused any damage to the lobes? I don't know if solid and hyd roller camshafts are made from the same material? Or are the lobes "Hardened" on a mechanical? Hyd cams would never have a "lash" .....the rollers would be easier on it but I have never heard of anybody doing what happened. This would be my only concern. If you put a degree wheel on you could see if anything has happened...also I would check each lobe with a dial indicator and a solid lifter. I had a hyd flat tappet cam on another engine that had some bad lobes and that would make those cylinders down on power.

Again I'm not saying that anything is wrong....It would be a concern for me and I would check it but I can do all this myself so it wouldn't cost me a penny.

The 28% thing was kind of an example just to make a point. I don't see why you wouldn't make 400 at the wheels with 205 heads. If I was buying heads I would go with the 225's. I already had the Vic Jrs on mine thats why I have them. Even though they are ported they are probably like a AFR 205 at best. The 205's will give better torque but I have a supercharger that makes up for it. I don't even remember what stock fuel rails are good for but as long as you are not lean I guess they are o.k.

Are your headers going to work o.k. with the new heads? I know I have the completely wrong size and they don't even fit the port. I can't wait to get some real headers!! I know they are costing me HP. But where I'm at I can't hook up anyway!:D It all starts to become bragging rights at this point!! This is with street tire's and not a drag race suspension.....but out on the freeway more is always better!!!
 
#119
I have the 351 R hooker headers. They match up and work fine I guess. Down the road I will get different ones maybe.

As to the builder. Again, the heads were my choice bec I was low on money. I took a gamble. This may well prove to be my low HP problem. I am absolutely sure the rest of the work is first class. This guy has done too many hot rods and race cars that perform extremely well to be judged by one issue. And if I had any trouble with my internals he would stand by me as long as I did not abuse the car above its limits.-
 
#120
Pokageek said:
I have the 351 R hooker headers. They match up and work fine I guess. Down the road I will get different ones maybe.

As to the builder. Again, the heads were my choice bec I was low on money. I took a gamble. This may well prove to be my low HP problem. I am absolutely sure the rest of the work is first class. This guy has done too many hot rods and race cars that perform extremely well to be judged by one issue. And if I had any trouble with my internals he would stand by me as long as I did not abuse the car above its limits. Like I said, I was mad but thats over now. Lets move on. :) I found out the cam was checked out and it is fine.
Click to expand...

If they are the hooker short tubes that is what I'm running...they are only 1 5/8" and are too small for the ports and motor really....they are sized for a 302 and marginal on a 351 but way too small for over 400 cubes. You still will probably make the power though, look what I'm making with them!. But I know they are restricting the power also. Check out your ports on the 205's they should be way larger than the hookers if they are the 1 5/8" short tubes. I took a grinder to mine and smoothed out the welds inside the port to flange but they are too small for my ports.

My last post NEVER said anything about your builder or anything negative on the heads you were running. You asked for an opinion on the cam and I gave you that and also pointed out a concern on the camshaft that I had and the only way I would know how to make sure you didn't have a bad lobe. Not really sure what the "Lets move on is all about:)"??
I stated what I felt and its already done and over, I was just trying to answer your questions and give an opinion. Sorry if you took it wrong.
 
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