PUSHROD -VS- MODULAR

[Max Power]

The only reason to put a mod moter in a vintage chassis is to be different, and enough people have done it, so it's not really different anymore. I have nothing against mod motors at all, I think they are great, but the amount of work for a mod swap is not really rewarded with any great benefits, IMO...

 

[BooWFO]

Big inch stroker windsor.. And I'm a mod motor guy now.

 

[Travis77]

There are a few reasons why I would consider putting a mod motor in a classic stang. One would be if I was going to elliminate the shock towers for a smoothed inner panel/firewall look. Second, to put a complete factory efi motor in while still retaining hood clearance. I love windsors, and wished Ford would have developed a better way of packaging a larger cubic inch motor like the 351W. Also, doing this while remaining competitive with the other N/A motors out there. Ford always seemed to be the under dog while being compared to the larger 350. I never heared them comparing apples to apples. But trying to run somewhat of a factory EFI 351W setup is a much more challenging. Look at all the PT cars out there that are built with great taste that are running late model hemi's, Ls1's, etc.. I would love to own some of them. And I would proudly park them next to my ford truck, and both 67 and 69 fastback. Just my opinion. Hope I'm not banned!

 

[D.Hearne]

If you're waiting on a DOHC mod motor, why wait for one from a Stang? Lincoln Mark VIII had them too. And you don't have to have a maze of wiring. Put a carb on it with a crank trigger. www.modularperformance.com makes the intake. But if going for a pushrod, why limit yourself to a Windsor? How about an all aluminum FE 500+ inch big block ? Or a 460 based stroker?

 

[Hack]

If you're waiting on a DOHC mod motor, why wait for one from a Stang? Lincoln Mark VIII had them too. And you don't have to have a maze of wiring. Put a carb on it with a crank trigger. www.modularperformance.com makes the intake. But if going for a pushrod, why limit yourself to a Windsor? How about an all aluminum FE 500+ inch big block ? Or a 460 based stroker?

That was my first thought when I saw your post too. If you aren't afraid of spending money for bling, build a mountain motor with huge cubes. People will freak when you tell them what it is! If you put big back tires on you should still be able to get decent traction even with that huge mass in the front of the car.

 

[mtbdoc]

Or do what I'm doing: stroked 408W + Procharger D2 blower + carb. Self contained w/o all of the wiring efi entails. More rwhp than can be safely managed...even w/ lots of chassis mods.

I did the MII front end >2 yrs ago, so that I would have room to do whatever I wanted. I was going to put the 331 stroker w/ KB blower...but wanted a little more. I also thought about a twin turbo fuel injected motor. Lots of options out there. I honestly think I'd rather go w/ a stroked 460 w/ big aluminum heads...no bigger than a mod motor...and PLENTY of pop!

 

[65ShelbyClone]

Pesonally, I think mod motors were a step backward. Sure they are strong and can make lots of power, but look at the package! Displacement shrank and the engine grew......dramatically. It's not like all that valvetrain allows it to rev like a bike either. On top of that, there is hardly any room for stroker cranks. Then again, Ford seems to be good at shooting their own feet. I would have rather seen a skirted, OHC, all-aluminum 302/351W based duo, if anything. I guess from a practical standpoint, the gains aren't worth the trouble or cost.

This is the only OHC Ford I really like:

 

[zookeeper]

I used to think the same as you, but after reading about some engine builders getting over 1,000hp with a stock block, crank and rods I think maybe Ford must know something. Try getting anywhere near that with a SOHC 427 and you'll find out why those motors are extinct. Time tends to cloud the faults of some of the icons (like the SOHC 427) when in fact they were nowhere near the equal of Chrysler's Hemi, and stock Hemi Mopars would have their heads handed to them by a modern 4.6 Cobra.

 

[302 coupe]

1000hp on stock modular ford rods is laughable, most guys making over 300rwhp NA are using aftermarket forged internals, I'm not saying thats the limit of stock rods, just that they are apparently marginal enough at that level for most people to replace them. Modular engines, other than boosted DOHC engines, have absolutely no advantage over a 302 or 351.

 

[Ronstang]

Sicarius 428: Since I'm going to put a new rear under the car with an aftermarket suspension, which kind is still under review. Plus i'm planning on putting mini tubs in the wheelwells in order to make room for meatier tires. I feel my traction problems will hopefully be minimal.

I assume by aftermarket suspension you mean one that uses coilovers and ditches the rear leaf springs, if not the leafs are much more of a constraint on tire size than the fenderwells. I am building a Griggs GR-350 at the moment and just finished roughing in the minitubs picked up about 1.5" on a 66. I will have to wait until the rear suspension is actually installed before I can do some measuring to see just how much room there is with my minitub design.

 

[Nemesis67]

Well it certainly is starting to get interesting here.
I don't mind all the work in transplanting a mod motor into my 67 FB. But I also don't mind putting a stroked 351 either, WAAYYY easier! The most important thing is that I'm happy with the result...the most bang for the buck and it all will be EFI! I don't care for carburation anymore, it's all about modernization on this stang. Thanks for all the input though!! That's why I got on stangnet in the first place. Always look before you leap!

:SNSign:

 

[Nemesis67]

I assume by aftermarket suspension you mean one that uses coilovers and ditches the rear leaf springs, if not the leafs are much more of a constraint on tire size than the fenderwells. I am building a Griggs GR-350 at the moment and just finished roughing in the minitubs picked up about 1.5" on a 66. I will have to wait until the rear suspension is actually installed before I can do some measuring to see just how much room there is with my minitub design.

That's the only way for me! I'm seriously considering the airbar system by Air Ride Technologies. But I'm not entirely sold on that system yet. But if not the airbags it would definately be a coilover system.
Anyone have any input on total control produts laydown coilover system...other than that it costs a mint! I've heard that it has a tendency to bind.
How hard were the minitubs?

 

[Ronstang]

The minitubs were not hard, just time consuming to figure out how to do since I have never seen it done before I simply had to experiment and do what I think is best. I have a series of photos if you want to take a look. They are roughed in but not totally finished. I am saving all the grinding and cleanup for the end of the project. I would rather spend a couple days finishing everything then do it as I go. That way all the priming and seam sealing and whatnot happens at the same time.

You can look at what I have done here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hertzshelby66/album?.dir=/a3e7re2&.src=ph&.tok=phUSxJFBs7ebEte0

 

[washMO66]

1,000 HP on stock rods, crank and pistons on a mod motor, not likely. I just sold my 02 Saleen Extreme (4.6L 2V). Saleen felt it necessary and stuffed all forged internals in it and it was only 425HP, 440 ft lbs tq. stock, the twin screw blower was pushing 13PSI. It had more pop stock and was quicker than a stock 03-04 Cobra but the power was nothing compared to my 347ci windsor stroker in my 66. (My 66 will eat most Cobras on the road) Yes I know my classic is lighter too, that helps.

I went from pushrod in a classic to mod motor in the Saleen back to the push rod in a classic. I flat out didn't like the looks of the motor, the upgrades required to make big numbers, the computer reprogramming required after every single upgrade and the sound of a mod motor cannot match a big cammed pushrod motor (I did a high dollar header exhaust combo on the Saleen and it still didn't appeal to me).

For the money you can spend on a mod motor to get big numbers that same money can get you bigger numbers with a big inch Windsor, that is a fact. Mod motors can rev, but so can a well built push rod, mod motors love boost, but so does a well built push rod.

Bottom line is that to each their own, I think you know my preference by now but keep in mind that I am a guy who prefers function over form...... It is your choice and some people prefer the more high tech approach to things. I may just be getting old and prefer old school muscle to new....

 

[Nemesis67]

The minitubs were not hard, just time consuming to figure out how to do since I have never seen it done before I simply had to experiment and do what I think is best. I have a series of photos if you want to take a look. They are roughed in but not totally finished. I am saving all the grinding and cleanup for the end of the project. I would rather spend a couple days finishing everything then do it as I go. That way all the priming and seam sealing and whatnot happens at the same time.

You can look at what I have done here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hertzshelby66/album?.dir=/a3e7re2&.src=ph&.tok=phUSxJFBs7ebEte0

Nice Job!! Looks good. Thanks for the pictures!

 

[Nemesis67]

washMO66, you almost have me on your side with that argument. I like the new stuff, but I too have a tendancy to go back to the old stuff. Looks like your not the only one getting old!

 

[D.Hearne]

I used to think the same as you, but after reading about some engine builders getting over 1,000hp with a stock block, crank and rods I think maybe Ford must know something. Try getting anywhere near that with a SOHC 427 and you'll find out why those motors are extinct. Time tends to cloud the faults of some of the icons (like the SOHC 427) when in fact they were nowhere near the equal of Chrysler's Hemi, and stock Hemi Mopars would have their heads handed to them by a modern 4.6 Cobra.

I don't know Zoo, the SOHC 427 out of the crate was 625 hp with a single 4 bbl carb and on pump gas. And all the hi-po Mod motors I've seen Ford do lately don't use the Powdered metal rods either, I know at least one was stuffed with aftermarket forgings. I don't recall which it was offhand but Ford saw fit not to use the stock mod rods in that one. Add a blower ot a SOHC 427 and I'm quite sure you'll see bigger numbers than the mods are doing now. Break out the history books and read what they did with em back in the day. You'll see why Ford's gone back to the concept.

 

[xoxbxfx]

I remember seeing a 03 cobra running 931rwhp on stock internals with a KB2.2

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I used to think the same as you, but after reading about some engine builders getting over 1,000hp with a stock block, crank and rods I think maybe Ford must know something.

That was on a 2003-2004 blown Cobra engine. Forged pistons, steel crank, and Carillo(or Crower, I don't remember) rods. They built that one engine like any one of us would have.......not all the modulars.

I don't know Zoo, the SOHC 427 out of the crate was 625 hp with a single 4 bbl carb and on pump gas.

And the dual quad option was 657hp. How many crate engines are available with 657hp anymore?

 

[zookeeper]

All I know is a few months back, Hot Rod featured a blown, 4.6 powered Cougar that cranked out a bit over 1000hp, ran in the 6's and had a stock bottom end. I also read an article several years ago with the late Mickey Thompson about his SOHC floppers. He stated that the blown fuel Cammers were putting out "about 1000hp", but were splitting blocks right and left. I know we'd all like to believe the big Fords were big, bad and burley, and feared by all in the good old days, but it just isn't so. Look at the guys racing the FAST series, see any Fords? Know why? Please don't misunderstand, I bleed Ford blue and I really feel that the Ford Mustang is a great car and I'm glad to see that Mustangs are so widely accepted by racers these days, but let's be honest, FE Fords of any kind or size never really had the big block Chevys, Mopars and such shaking with fear.