Question about injectors and maf with kenne bell?

84convertablegt said:

Im gonna bolt on a kenne bell at 9lbs to a stock 95 gt. I would like to go at it the right way with new injectors, fuel pump, and maf meater. Seems like all i would need is 36lb injectors, but they are hard to find. ford only sells 30lb and 42lb. one seems like too much, and one not enough. also, what maf should i use. the lightning 90 seems good, but #1 it wont just plug in, and #2 you have to have a tune before the car will run. Will a recalibrated C&L work good with 36 lb injectors with a kenne bell? also, the kit comes with a fmu, which i dont want to really use. so do i need a new fp regulator that has a boost reference say 1:1. and doesnt the fpr just act like a fmu? lots of questions here, but im lost on which way to go. i want to be able to bolt it all on and drive and worry about a tune at another time, not trailer my car somewhere just to get it running. any help is appreciated.

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Several things to think about.

1. I agree, 30's are too little

2. I think I saw Travis say he could not make 42's work with his C&L maf.

You most likely won't be able to make 36's or 42's work to your satisfaction without a tune.

I could be wrong here, but I thought even the stock fpr was a 1 to 1 ratio if talking about boost

I've seen many KB guys say you want a big maf with that combo. Maybe the Lightning maf is the way to go.

Grady

Since your pulling through the MAF and TB, you'll want the biggest you can get. My understanding is the KB is more sensitive here when compared to a Vortech or Paxton. Those are able to blow through a smaller TB, relatively easy. The KB is forced to draw through the TB, so bigger is better.
As far as injectors, I didn't have much tune related issues when I had 36's and Calibrated MAF. Seems they idled much better than the 42's I got later. I needed the 42's though....
I've heard more people unhappy with the C&L MAF than I have with the Pro-M. This is in regard to tuning with the Tweecer....
I don't think the stock FPR is boost sensitive, so I replaced mine. Kirban.
No, the boost sensitive FPR is not the same as an FMU. The FPR simply raises fuel pressure in direct proportion to boost, in order to maintain 39psi at the injector tip. The FMU increases fuel pressure in order to compensate for small injectors. 19's can support the same hp as 36's (or more) using an FMU. However, at some point the injectors will become uncontrolable with too much pressure. If youput 42'sa in you won't need the FMU, but you'll need a tune. Also, GET A WIDEBAND. You have Hypers in there (I assume). They will break under detonation. (Been there, done that.) You need to be able to monitor your AFR.....

84convertablegt said:

Good information! So 19 lb injectors can really support 9lbs of boost with an FMU? Thats crazy. But anyway, i do want to do it the right way. What is the website for Pro-M? I cant seem to find it. and where would i order a pro-m maf? So if i get a new fuel pump, new 36lb injectors, adjustable fpr, and the pro m i should be decent until i can get a tune? basically i want to just be able to start and drive the car to the dyno. wont get on it much, maybe just a little tester, i will try and stay out of boost. theres no problem tuning a pro m calibrated for 36lbs from the factory is there?

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That's basically what I did when I first got my Vortech. The only other thing is timing. You CANNOT allow it to run stock timing under boost. Right now I limit mine to about 20 degrees of total timing under boost. My Vortech came with an MSD BTM, which allowed me to pull timing under boost, but now I use the Tweecer.
Pro-M is out of business, but some employees re-opened under another name. I don't know, something like promassair or something. If you do a search in this forum it will pop up...
Don't get on it until you have fuel AND timing under control. Those pistons ARE that fragile...
Dennis

Since the ightning MAF is for the 42's it should start and run. As far as plug, I don't know, I've not seen a Lightning MAF...

Well I just got through tunning mine I bought a set of new 36lb injectors which i probably should have stayed with. Instead I turned right around and bought a set of 42lb injectors with a 90mm lightining MAF meter.

Heres what happened. The tunner had problems with the car running lean with the 36lb injectors on the high end. Thats why I bought 42lb injectors. The problem was not the 36lb injectors, there was a pin not making good contact at the computer, but by then I already had the 42lb injectors and meter so I had him install them. So if anyone is interested I will probably end up selling them. They don't even have 5 miles on them.

36lb or 42lb injectors will allow you to eliminate the FMU which I highly recommend because it can cause major tunning issues, plus there very unreliable. 42lb injectors I wouldnt recommend without some sort of custom tune. I had to send my car back to the tuner because start up was becomming a major pain with that large of an injector. He finally got it right but I wouldnt try them unless you've got a PMS, tweecer or a custom tune to trim back the fuel at start up.

Now for your Lighting mass air flow meter question. The plug is different, however they make a harness to make it fit 87-95 mustangs.

http://www.musclemotors.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1066&HS=1

I ended up with two because the first one got lost by UPS. Idiots delivered it to the wrong address. However I did eventually get it, so i've got an extra one. If you want it PM me. Im selling it for $45.00 if anyone is interested.

a50sn95 said:

Since the ightning MAF is for the 42's it should start and run. As far as plug, I don't know, I've not seen a Lightning MAF...

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Sorry this is dead wrong. The Lightning MAF is NOT calibrated for any injector - Ford doesn't do it this way. Pro-M and C&L trick the computer and when they do this load calculations - which control timing, are off.

I had one of the quickest '95 Kenne-Bell's on drag radials in the country it ran 11.1/123 (At our home track - National Trails!) in my 3700# vert. I ran 42's in it.

Basically, a good sound combo for a 94-95 KB - and we have tuned a TON of them, is 42# injectors and a 90mm LMAF, with a 255 LPH in-tank fuel pump. 42# injectors are not 'too much' in fact you could use any size up to 60# if you'd want to - that's what I run now. You can always lower the pulsewidth. But if you get an injector too small, you can't do much to increase the flow outside of raising FP.

One thing KB does NOT tell you about using a KB without an FMU is you need to connect the FPR to the boost side of the blower so it sees boost so it can raise FP 1:1 - all FPRs are boost sensitive so that's not an issue. The other thing is, if at all possible the ACT should also see boost - in a 95 it's in the powerpipe. It needs to be moved. If you have the GT-40 lower, there is a threaded hole in the #5 runner to move it to. If not you can either drill and tap the #5 runner or some people have put it into the KB dischage manifold.

Not sure which KB you'll get, but I'd suggest the 2200 with Flowzilla - they make great power. A 75mm TB helps too - on a twin screw, you need all big parts ahead of the blower.

Get the LMAF and injectors here - best deal around - $319 http://www.buyfordmotorsport.com/shop/index.php?show=specials

You'll need a Late model pigtail connector - F68Z12A690-AA and a filter adapter of some sort. We sell the adapters and pigtails if you can't find them anywhere else. You also will need a 4" round filter and a 4" silicone adapter to whatever sized powerpipe you have. You'll also need a chip/tune to get this to work right.

With a Flowzilla you can only use a stock FPR - aftermarket won't fit. And get rid of any underdrive pulleys you might have.

Hope this helps - if you need any more info along the way - email me at don@lasotaracing.com, I'll be happy to help.

Good Luck!

Don

84convertablegt said:

don, its nice to see you on stangnet. we talked alot on corral when i did my first kenne bell. this time im doing it right. and yes, i plan on moving the ACT to the intake manifold where it will really get a sense of things. can i just screw the stock one into a hole i tap, and if so, do you know what size it is? so basically, i can leave the stock ford fpr on there? or do i need an aftermarket one. i know on my last one, the 1500 was even a very tight squeeze with the fpr. im just buying the 1500 standard blower with a 9spi pulley. that will be more than enough for what im going for. thanks

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Not sure of the thread size, you can just use a stock one, I THINK it's 18mm, but I'm not 100% sure of this. Take yours out and take it to a hardware store. The Lightning ACT is designed for higher temps -F6SZ12A697A you will need a late model connector either from a dealer - Krieger has them - or a junkyard or just cut yours off and use small female connectors or carefully solder to the ACT contacts (this is what I did).

The stock FRP is fine.

The 1500 will be OK too, I went 11.7 with mine and a killer tune.

Don

84convertablegt said:

don, its nice to see you on stangnet. we talked alot on corral when i did my first kenne bell. this time im doing it right. and yes, i plan on moving the ACT to the intake manifold where it will really get a sense of things. can i just screw the stock one into a hole i tap, and if so, do you know what size it is? so basically, i can leave the stock ford fpr on there? or do i need an aftermarket one. i know on my last one, the 1500 was even a very tight squeeze with the fpr. im just buying the 1500 standard blower with a 9spi pulley. that will be more than enough for what im going for. thanks

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Hi,
Thinking about a KB also and wondering why go with the smaller one a $400.00 difference doesn't seem like many $ looking toward the future..

Don 95Vert said:

The Lightning MAF is NOT calibrated for any injector - Ford doesn't do it this way. Pro-M and C&L trick the computer and when they do this load calculations - which control timing, are off..

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Of course, you are right. Ford has the MAF information in the processor. You'd have to change the MAF transfer for it to run right.
Sorry for the mis-information, I've only had Pro-M MAFs, which DO f up the load calculations...

If you move the ACT, is the stock processor able to deal with the higher numbers? I guess, do the tables have enough resolution to use the information, or do they have to be modified? I've been contemplating this on mine, but wondered if anything else needed to be changed?


Dennis

a50sn95 said:

That's basically what I did when I first got my Vortech. The only other thing is timing. You CANNOT allow it to run stock timing under boost. Right now I limit mine to about 20 degrees of total timing under boost. My Vortech came with an MSD BTM, which allowed me to pull timing under boost, but now I use the Tweecer.
Pro-M is out of business, but some employees re-opened under another name. I don't know, something like promassair or something. If you do a search in this forum it will pop up...
Don't get on it until you have fuel AND timing under control. Those pistons ARE that fragile...
Dennis

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Yes, those Hyper... pistons are sensitive. I broke (dropped on the floor) one when I was tearing my engine apart to rebuild my engine. So I can only imagine what will happen under boost and detonation. Oh by the way, I replaced all them dogs with forge probe pistons. Peace

84convertablegt said:

ok, a little information here from kennebell. i called them yesterday and they told me that i shouldnt use 42lb injectors for my setup. they recommended 30lb injectors since they are good up to 450hp. said they will be plenty. they also said to use the 90mm lightning maf. hummm, what to do, what to do.

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I bet their advice is based on you using a FMU?

Grady

With boost I would always take the high road and have too much injector, to tune them and run a safe duty cycle, than run too small of an inj. and have a high duty cycle.

The eaton on the gen 2 L's is less powerfull (potential) than the KB and Ford used 42's not 30 or 36's food for thought.

Soooo many people run 42's with KBs on 5.0's I'd say KB is living in 'yesteryear' on that one. I even know of a couple of people over at the Corral (Jay 95GT is one) who had 30's with a 1500 but ran out of injector and got 42's. I think 42's are cheaper than 30's and since you need a tune anyway why not go with 42's it just makes no sense to me...

Here's the math on 30# injectors: 30#/hr X 8 injectors = 240#/hr

240#/Hr/0.6 Brake specific fuel consumption for a blown motor = 400 HP

That's at the crank - figure 15% DT loss = 340RWHP

Then allow 40-75 HP to turn the blower and....

This calculations are not hard and fast, just guidlines mainly because the injectors may flow more or less and the BSFC may be different. And you can support more power by rasing the FP - this assumes 39.5 FP.

And even if it'll be close and MIGHT work, why spend money twice...

Don