Rear Suspension Help

[TwoToneHatch]

I just got a set of strange adjustable rear shocks for my 89 GT , I'd like to get a set of nice upper/lower control arms while i'm at it . What would be a nice set of control arms that will help at the track but still be ok for daily driving ? I've looked at BBK , UPR , Lakewood , etc. not sure which is the better bang for the buck.

 

[Bryan83taco]

We just had a huge debate on Chinese crap upper/lower control arms, look for the thread. Save up and get a good set. I recommend MM.

 

[need4spd90]

i've been running J&M LCA's for a few years now, they're holding up great..over 400 launches on drag radials and DOT slicks at the track and they still look like new...

 

[Sharad]

I just got a set of strange adjustable rear shocks for my 89 GT , I'd like to get a set of nice upper/lower control arms while i'm at it . What would be a nice set of control arms that will help at the track but still be ok for daily driving ? I've looked at BBK , UPR , Lakewood , etc. not sure which is the better bang for the buck.

I'd recommend for you to check the vendors' forum here at Stangnet to see what kind of control arms are available, and also what kind of discounts you receive as a Stangnet member!

 

[Rick 91GT]

One key no matter what brand you look at is to go with a adjustable upper, this way you can accurately dial in the pinon angle.

I would recommend the UPR 2001-101 kit, very streetable and fully adjustable. I would also replace the most likely work rear end housing bushings while you have the upper arms off. Otherwise Id look at the Team Z Motorsports pieces

I am not just recommending the UPR since I am a dealer, but because they work and last.

 

[Maryland Stang]

I'm using Steeda LCAs.

 

[Sharad]

One key no matter what brand you look at is to go with a adjustable upper, this way you can accurately dial in the pinon angle.

I would recommend the UPR 2001-101 kit, very streetable and fully adjustable. I would also replace the most likely work rear end housing bushings while you have the upper arms off. Otherwise Id look at the Team Z Motorsports pieces

I am not just recommending the UPR since I am a dealer, but because they work and last.

Thanks man. Our control arms do work really well. Plus they are Made in America and they carry a Lifetime Guarantee.

 

[Noobz347]

One key no matter what brand you look at is to go with a adjustable upper, this way you can accurately dial in the pinon angle.

I would recommend the UPR 2001-101 kit, very streetable and fully adjustable. I would also replace the most likely work rear end housing bushings while you have the upper arms off. Otherwise Id look at the Team Z Motorsports pieces

I am not just recommending the UPR since I am a dealer, but because they work and last.

Thanks man. Our control arms do work really well. Plus they are Made in America and they carry a Lifetime Guarantee.

Gents...

On the adjustable upper control arm issue...

Is this a better street option than a set of 94+ OEM uppers? I've heard over and again, that uppers with solid or even urethane bushings can cause suspension bind in a 4-link system. How do adjustable after market upper controls address this?

 

[Maryland Stang]

Is this a better street option than a set of 94+ OEM uppers? I've heard over and again, that uppers with solid or even urethane bushings can cause suspension bind in a 4-link system. How do adjustable after market upper controls address this?

Yes, they are much better. The 94+ OEM uppers are just pre 94 uppers with stronger rubber bushings.

The UPR bottom arms are fine. They use a rod end that provides plenty of articulation. I would put (and I did on my car) Cobra rubber rear end housing bushings in at the top. You are right, the UPR uppers provide no give in their design. My upper arms came with rod ends (which I replaced with QA1 rod ends) and I put the Cobra bushings in. Maximum Motorsports makes a tool for installing the upper bushings that makes installation a snap.

 

[Maryland Stang]

Oh yeah... Take the opportunity while you have the arms out to put torque box reinforcements in, both upper and lower.

 

[Rick 91GT]

I was going to see if UPR responded to what they thought about the bind issue first but heres my $.02 on the subject, based on racing expierence and years of use of many different arms on my own car, along with cars through my shop.

In a race car, all the joints are heim joints and I have full articulation and can control the rear the way I need to with supports, angles, coil overs and anti-sway bars...the key is for it all to move freely.

In a street car, you always comprise a little unless you want to deal with a little noise and maintenance. Some complain about spherical bushings on the street I never found them a pain, and as loud as most of our cars are whats a little more...hell most time you can't hear it.

I know MM preaches the bind issue and it spreads like a STD from a hot girl on the internet but I am not 100% sold. Years ago Steeda had a 3 piece bushing set-up in there control arm, all different hardness levels of poly. They no long have those 3 piece and have went to a single poly bushing..the arm is near identical design to the UPR street upper, and near every other manufactures..you can only change the design so much, you know?

I like these in a street car...no noise added, I usually run a stock rubber style bushing on the rear end housing OR a spherical.
View attachment 184078

I really prefer these but to some people they so transmit more noise..I usally use a poly in the rear housing or spherical.

View attachment 184079

Heres a spherical and reg poly housing bushing for you that may or may not know what Im talking about..these are installed into the rear end housing and are at the attachment point for the rear upper control arm.
View attachment 184080
View attachment 184081

ALL ABOVE IMAGES ARE FROM UPR, I am not paid by UPR in any way but I am proud to be a dealer and user of there products.

Here's a Steeda adj upper arm...used them with no issues, great product.

I use these personally on my own car, I actually run a entire set-up from Team Z Motorsports on the rear of my car. I would use the UPR if I didn't already have these components. Dave is a top notch fabricator and suspension tuner, and I bought these when Dave was first coming out with them for at the time my NMRA Drag Radail car. This is a RACE SET-UP. You'll notice the solid bushings that go into the rear housing. Id also run ANY product Team Z produces, Dave is one of the best fabricators I have ever met and he is a helluva man.

There is a ton of theory and design in rear suspension and it is all dependent on what you do with the car. The anti squat ration, Instant Center, Ride Height, Weight, Tire etc...all come into play.

 

[Noobz347]

Thanks for the info Rick. I've got a set of uppers and lowers that I'm looking install in the near future. The uppers happen to be UPR adjustable with the spherical bearings. I'd like to add a panhard bar as soon as I can but I need to get the stuff installed that I've got.

 

[SteedaGus]

Years ago Steeda had a 3 piece bushing set-up in there control arm, all different hardness levels of poly. They no long have those 3 piece and have went to a single poly bushing..the arm is near identical design to the UPR street upper, and near every other manufactures..you can only change the design so much, you know?

Incorrect, our 3 piece bushing design is alive and well, and has been over the 12 1/2 years I've been here and well before that.

 

[Noobz347]

Thanks for the info Rick. I've got a set of uppers and lowers that I'm looking install in the near future. The uppers happen to be UPR adjustable with the spherical bearings. I'd like to add a panhard bar as soon as I can but I need to get the stuff installed that I've got.

What your take on the 4-link suspension bind phenomena? Anything to it?

 

[bear601]

question for rick those housing bushings are pressed in i belive.
how hard are they to change out and does any make a tool to make it easier

 

[Noobz347]

I'm not Rick but...

Maximum Motor Sports sells the tool...

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/s...=product_info&cPath=514_21_99&products_id=190

 

[Rick 91GT]

Incorrect, our 3 piece bushing design is alive and well, and has been over the 12 1/2 years I've been here and well before that.

I was misinformed, thanks for the response Gus! Can you respond about what you guys think about bind?FWIW- We've had those Steeda arms since around 98 I beleive, still look great I dont see them listed or called out on your site any more?

 

[Rick 91GT]

I'm not Rick but...

Maximum Motor Sports sells the tool...

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=514_21_99&products_id=190

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/s...=product_info&cPath=514_21_99&products_id=190



Correct MM makes the tool, otherwise you can drill a series of holes in the bushing and then beat the sleeve out if needed. It all depends what bushing you buy, some reuse the stock sleeves so you need to only remove the rubber bushing part, some like the Ford Racing replacment units have new metal sleeves attached.

 

[Sharad]

One key no matter what brand you look at is to go with a adjustable upper, this way you can accurately dial in the pinon angle.

I would recommend the UPR 2001-101 kit, very streetable and fully adjustable. I would also replace the most likely work rear end housing bushings while you have the upper arms off. Otherwise Id look at the Team Z Motorsports pieces

I am not just recommending the UPR since I am a dealer, but because they work and last.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm P.U.I. (Posting Under the Influence) because I have bronchitis so I'm "'sippin' on some syzzzrup", but I swear I thought I already responded to this thread!? Is it posted on another forum? Mustangforums.com maybe?

Anyway, what I said in my previous response was that I never bought into the whole bind thing. I'm not saying MM is full of it. They sure know how to make Mustangs handle. But in my own experience owning and racing literally dozens of Mustangs over two decades, I've never had any problem with bind from poly bushings.

Yes, like Rick said, I prefer spherical bearings all the way around in my cars. The NVH doesn't bother me, and I really appreciate how freely the suspension articulates with these arms. But for the person that is at least mildly concerned about NVH, I like UPR's Pro Street arms which have a poly bushing on one end and a spherical on the other. It's the best of both worlds. You have minimized NVH from the poly bushings, but bind free operation from the sphericals. Win Win.

 

[MFE92]

Most people don't know what "bind" really is, because it's not like the suspension just reaches a point and sticks there. And people who only run 1/4 mile could probably afford to banish the word from their vocabulary.

What the "bind" starts with is that the geometry of the mustang's converging-upper 4-link design dictates that as the body rolls, the arms must articulate not only up and down, but each arm is forced articulate laterally, just to accomplish its job. They must do this as the body rolls, and there's no way around it without moving suspension pickup points. "Bind" refers to the degree to which the suspension resists these articulations as the body rolls, artificially making itself stiffer. See here for a good description: http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm#Rear

Many of you have heard the suspension tuning advice that you should add stiffness to whatever end of the car you want to break loose earlier. Well, suddenly add a buttload of stiffness to the rear end of the car when you're in the middle of a corner and you'll just as suddenly find yourself with an armload of oversteer. Again, not a big deal if you're only doing straight line stuff, except it certainly affects your recovery abilities when hits the fan and you find yourself not going straight anymore. But it's a big deal if you like to carve corners.

With all that said, here's a writeup of a study one of MM's engineers did years ago:

While bind is only one of many parameters determining the handling characteristics of a suspension system, it is useful information, and has been a subject of great debate on these message boards. As part of the research we did in developing our rear suspension system, MM has actually done quite a bit of roll-bind testing. I can offer some hard numbers for everyone to consider. I will define ‘bind’ to be any resistance to wheel movement in a roll situation that is not from the spring or sway bar.

Let me say that this information is not intended to be negative toward any particular system, but should be used to gain understanding of the way cars with different setups feel/handle. This information can help everyone to optimize whatever setup they may have.

Of the tests we have done, following are the tests relating to the rear suspension systems most often discussed. All tests are with the sway bar disconnected, cycling one wheel through 3” bump/droop as if in a roll situation. The results are organized in order from least bind to the most bind.

1) 4 Link - LCA with spherical bearings or rod ends at both ends / Stock UCA’s
6lb/in Linear
This shows the stock upper arms introduce 6 lb/in of wheel rate.

2) 4 Link – MM LCA 3 piece poly, spherical bearing / Stock UCAs
9lb/in Linear
This shows an additional 3 lb/in resistance from our 3 piece urethane compared to a rod end.

3) MMTA/PB – LCA with spherical bearings or rod ends at both ends
10lb/in Linear
Here we removes the 6lb/in from the UCAs, but adds 10lb/in due to lateral deflection of the TA during roll.

4) 4 Link – Stock LCA / Stock UCAs
11lb/in Linear
This shows that the stock LCA adds 5 lb/in of wheel rate, which is actually more than our LCA of case 2.

5) MMTA/PB – MM LCA 3 piece poly, spherical bearing
13lb/in Linear
Again illustrating an additional 3lb/in additional resistance of our 3 piece urethane compared to the rod ends in case 3.

6) 4 Link – LCA with 3 Piece Urethane at both ends / Stock UCAs
26lb/in Linear
Case 6 shows that the 3 piece poly (or any LCA) works best with a spherical bearing at one end. 17lb/in is added over case 2. Note that the effect of adding a 3 piece urethane at only one end adds 3lb/in. Add it at BOTH ends and the increase is 17lb/in… NOT 6 lb/in as one might expect.

7) 4 Link - LCA with delrin, spherical bearing / Stock UCAs
30lb/in Linear
This shows that delrin does not allow necessary angular deflection resulting in an additional 21lb/in over case 2.

8) 4 Link With PB - Stock LCA / Stock UCA
In the first 1” travel 47lb/in
Between 2-3” of travel 30lb/in Decreasing Rate
In case 8 & 9 the Panhard bar defining a new lower roll center is forcing control arms to travel a new path of higher resistance.

9) 4 Link With PB – MM LCA / Stock UCA
In the first 1” travel 50lb/in
Between 2-3” of travel 30lb/in Decreasing Rate

10) 4 Link – Stock LCA / UCA with rod end at chassis, stock rubber at axle
In the first 1” travel 63lb/in
Between 1-2” travel 39lb/in
Between 2-3” travel 20lb/in Decreasing Rate
Case 10 represents trying to locate the axle with a stiffer bushing configuration on the upper control arms. Since the upper arms need to have an effective length change, the rod end in this case actually creates MORE bind.

11) 4 Link – LCA with urethane at both ends / Stock UCA’s
67lb/in Linear
Case 11 is similar to case 6, but shows that a standard poly/poly control arm does not allow much angular change.

Keep in mind that the above information is with no cornering force on the axle. Therefore, there is a huge gap in this information if you are trying to correlate this data to how these systems would feel in use. I would say that the Torque-arm in case 3 & 5 outperforms any other case shown, although it does not have the least amount of bind in this test. We have begun to build a fixture that loads the axle laterally, as if in a corner, to THEN see how the bind behaves. Any system with a Panhard bar should have no significant increase in bind over what is already shown here. This predictability that a PB provides is why we recommend it on a 4 link (with the correct control arms) for people on a budget, or Solo II Street Prepared cars (not allowed to remove uppers). True, you are inducing bind in this situation, but that bind should not significantly change as you load the suspension laterally. When driving the car, the effective added spring rate (from bind) balances well with the new lower RC, and the improved stability and predictability. YES this is a compromise, but I feel it beats trying to locate the axle laterally with stiffer bushings. Obviously, if the pocket book or rulebook permits, the best thing to do is add a Torque-arm and remove the upper control arms. All this binding is also why you are able to add at least 50lb/in wheel rate to the rear when you add a Torque-Arm and remove the UCAs.

Ehren VanSchmus
MM Design Engineer