Engine Rebuilt 306 Cam Degreeing: 6.5 Degrees Off?

ZephyrEFI said:

Well, since I missed the show I was trying to get it ready for (it's actually going on right now), and it's been clear that was going to happen for a good week now (which was very frustrating), I've been chipping away at other things that need to happen for the car to run and drive once the valvetrain is done and the engine is in when I do get car time here and there. Things I know I can accomplish like putting the trans back together.

For the valvetrain, I guess I've mostly been trying to let all the input I'm getting on it sink in. I'm a person who needs to process things. I'll get there one way or another.

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Hi Zephyr,
Let’s approach this from another angle-ok? First, Regarding any guidance or info. exchanged, I am talking to, not down to you, not irritated, nor thinking anything but the best approach to what you want, up & running correctly with overall longevity.
You’ve done a tremendous job navigating through several things, Cam Timing, Cam Gear Thrust, incorrect keepers, we got past that. Take pride in that. This is no typical GT40P swap with an Explorer Intake & upgraded Cam/spring setup you’re running. Of the below, you can do, already have #1 & #4 #5, #6, & likely #3. Your reduced Cam Base circle, Head thickness, and uncertain deck height are going to factor into Geometry, also how far into the hole the Pistons are @TDC (Head Gasket thickness) pushrod length.
If it’s your desire to stay the course, you can run Pedestals, reliably, four limitations to running them, not HP, nor your specific Cam’s lift or Duration :
1) Open spring Pressure can’t exceed 400lbs.
2) You require consistent, accurate original installed Valve Stem height.
3) Pedestal height has not been altered.
4) You keep your RPM’s limited to 6,000RPM.
5) No clearance issues, interferences with Rocker, whether pivot, or otherwise.
6) Rocker Bolts grab as many threads as possible. Step up to ARP Bolts.
Check your PM.
- John

Hi Zephyr, LTNT!
How’s everything going, how far did you get, I’d wondered what occurred, is there any questions, comments, any way I can help?
Nice to see pic’s or at least know how it’s going. Well, Happy Thanksgiving & looking forward to hearing from you!
Best!
John

(413)-345-8331 if you need to talk, happy to help. Got super busy building a garage addition in a race for foundation, and frost coming...looks like a Spring completion, now, lol -darn it-. Well, if it can, it will happen- right? Had a shelf of 30 of the steel exhaust clamps,(2”-4”) commonly used nowl on the hood of my GT 500, grrrrr... Hood. Going to attempt a spot repair, hoods aluminum, it had one nick you could see only with a microscope before this, may just blow a clear over a repair, and clear the entire car.
We’ll see...
-John

Hi, Zephyr,
All a thumbs up?
Best!
John

ZephyrEFI said:

Hey, good to hear from you.

Car is okay. I finished with my spring projects, or I guess what I mean is, the car is assembled at the moment. Spring projects were, converting the 1990 automatic wire harness to manual, trying to get the new clutch properly adjusted, and adding a wideband O2 sensor.

I had to take a few things apart to do those things, and since doing them, the car will not idle. It rolls a good 1000 rpm up and down and likes to stall. This could have something to do with the fact that I connected pin 30 so that the ECU should know that the car is in neutral via the switches at the clutch pedal and transmission. Although, I did run this '93 Cobra computer briefly last year with the harness in the auto configuration, which sends voltage through that circuit, rather than simply grounding it (oops), which is what the manual configuration is meant to do. I'm told if that voltage caused damage, the ECU wouldn't function at all, but I don't really know for sure. Other than that, I'm not sure whether the distributor is lined up correctly or off a tooth. I have the timing set at about 20 degrees BTDC, and am running 91 octane non-oxy fuel.

Also, the clutch doesn't seem to want to operate properly. Every single piece of that system is new except the input shaft and clutch pedal. But it will slowly slide out of gear when I'm cruising in 5th. And the stupid shifter is hard to put into gear. So, in theory it isn't engaging OR disengaging all the way for all the sense that that makes.

It's always something with this damn car. The ticking seems to have gone away on its own though, so that's good.

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Hi,
Geez, sorry this is fighting you, but nothing good ever comes easy. I’ll help you reach the end, you’re running the KR Cam- correct?
Ever get a tune for this or still running the stock EEC’s programming?
Wideband 02 Sensor you’re installing for monitoring Air/Fuel ratio, correct?
First, your base timing (Set by rotating Dizzy)is set at 20 degrees? Almost sounds like the SPOUT (which interrupts the EEC from controlling timing) is connected for the EEC to add more timing on top of what your base timing is both at idle and while RPM’s rise when driving it- so seeing timing is at 20 degrees, shows your light is picking up the EEC is adding on top of what base is set at.
When setting timing- SPOUT is always removed, base timing by setting the Dizzy should be set at between 10-14 degrees, SPOUT then reinstalled for the EEC to add- or pull timing.
The PIP in your Dizzy sends a signal to the EEC, EEC takes that Date, which includes injector timing, applies its programming & Sensory data, and sends a signal to the TFI, which advances & retards timing as needed.
Is the #1 Plug wire landed on the cap in the correct spot? If not, the injector timing will not be lined up with spark timing. Some Dizzy Cap’s (like OE) have a spot marked & intended for #1 Cyl, others have the 1/2” black colored cap on the Dizzy.
What ID is your EEC? A9L? You can generally utilize a M/T or Auto Trans and dial that I’m with these EEC’s. The other way around is more challenging & Sometimes it may be a PITA, what EEC Codes have been thrown that you retrieved, don’t forget- there may be codes you’re not seeing, extracting them is necessary, a few issues may show no code at all, until you pull them.
Very easy to do, a paper clip and pen & pad will do the trick. If you haven’t yet done this, no pro
BTW, Lifters May acquire a “”tick’ when in a newer motor, this is a normal result of small pieces that are within the oil & created during break-in. They may clear themselves, or sometimes more aggressive means.
Your Clutch as I recall was re-Re-installed with a 2nd new one when you’d pulled the Transmission to get the rear main seal. Did you buy a firewall cable adjuster, a new clutch quadrant(or running the self adjusting OE plastic setup), and adjustable cable by chance?
New Clutches also require a gentle break-in for a few 100 mi+, if the clutch was hit terribly hard, I.e. Burnout clutch dumping, etc. it may glaze over the disc, but issues most generally are associated with it’s adjustment.
A dimes width on preload so the TOBearing is contacting clutch fingers...
Will look for your response, Best we hit one system at a time so it’s less likely to confuse, like reading a Map, instead of looking at the whole thing, look at the Town you’re seeking, it’s a Marathon, not a quick race.
I’ll help you as long as needed to get these identified and worked out.
Have you checked all your valves to verify none were adjusted too tight? This can usually be evident in a compression test.
The OBD-1 EEC has what’s coined as a Cylinder balance test, it’s a self Diagnostic test that will tell you quickly how the output of each cylinder, ID’ing “weak” cylinders. Is built into the EEC, so it is a self test you initiate, car runs through the paces.

Good links on this SN checklist below, regardless of the exact symptoms. In addition, for information purposes only, AZone sells remanufactured EEC’s for 300$, specific to the year & Trans type.

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected 5.0 Mustangs model years 1986-1995

A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.

Revised 26-Jul-2017 to add fuse link diagram.

All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD, Crane, or other ignition box if present - Bypass it and return to stock configuration if possible. Do this as a temporary measure to eliminate it as a possible problem source.
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp [fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer. Don’t replace the computer just because you don’t understand how it works. Computers seldom fail, it usually is a sensor or wiring problem that causes the problems.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red/blue wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI.
See the Ignition switch wiring diagram for more information on the ignition wiring fuse link because it is the next thing to be tested. You will need a Multimeter or DVM and know how to use the Ohms function to check continuity between the red/green wire on the ignition coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. Make sure that the ignition switch is in the off position when you do the check. You should see less than 1 Ω (Ohm) between the red/green wire on the coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. More than 1 Ω means that the fuse link may have blown open and needs to be replaced. If you get 1 Ω or less means the fuse link is OK and the ignition switch is bad.

Wiring Diagrams:

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine InformationEveryone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 2-4 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.




If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.




94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.

I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
B.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
C.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).

See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
View attachment 642143
The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.

D.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
E.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it, if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.(More like 150lbs within 5-7% of each other. Rings seated?
Best, Buddy!
-John