AzSnake said:You didn't look that hard or you just ignored what i told you earlier about Toyota useing dirty numbers for that.
Here's something to educate you.
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2003/12/19/174847.html
AND
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1077740/posts
For some people, the news that Toyota moved past Ford Motor to become the world's second- biggest automaker is like hearing that sushi has replaced hamburgers as America's favorite food. It is a crushing blow to a nation's emotional mind share. Ford is one of America's most storied and respected companies. What happened?
For anyone who follows the auto industry, or who has simply been shopping for a new car recently, the news really shouldn't be that shocking. Ford (nyse: F - news - people ), like other Detroit automakers, has been plagued by high labor costs, quality-control issues, a bad economy and tired designs for years. Toyota (nyse: TM - news - people ), on the other hand, has grown steadily, adding strong new models and technology every year while still keeping its costs competitive.
Granted, Toyota's margin is razor thin. For the first half of fiscal 2004, which Toyota says ends on March 31, 2004, the company reported higher global sales (3.17 million versus 3.127 million) than Ford, which measures the same time span as its second and third quarters.
If Toyota's lead were to continue to expand, it would be due in part to the kind of effort it has put this year into its Sienna minivan and the RX 330 sport utility from its Lexus luxury group. Both of these models were already popular and better than pretty much all of their competitors, but Toyota went ahead and made them even better. A bigger, much-improved Toyota Prius sedan arrived as a second-generation hybrid vehicle, while every other carmaker except Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people ) has yet to develop a first. In June a new, well-received division called Scion started selling cars for the youngest buying demographic in California, and Lexus overhauled its flagship LS 430 sedan for 2003.
Ford, on the other hand, has concentrated most of its new product efforts on the overhauled F-Series pickup, the company's best-selling vehicle. While this was an expensive and crucial introduction, Ford has been pretty much silent on other new product introductions, releasing the outrageous $100,000-plus GT supercar instead of high-volume coupes, sedans or sport utilities. New offerings from Ford's sub-brands, like Jaguar and Mazda, do not compete with the volumes or sales at the Ford division or Toyota. And even though the excellent F-150 is Ford's franchise vehicle (see this week's Test Drive, "2004 Ford SuperCab 4x4 F-150 XLT"), it is being undersold like other American vehicles, with incentives that are increasing at the expense of the company's bottom line.
Ford does plan to release some volume cars in the next few years, including the Five Hundred, a large sedan that arrives next summer to challenge more upscale volume sedans, like Nissan's (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) Maxima, General Motors' (nyse: GM - news - people ) Pontiac Bonneville and Volkswagen's Passat. A seven-passenger wagon called the Freestyle will take on DaimlerChrysler's (nyse: DCX - news - people ) Chrysler Pacifica in mid-2004, and Ford's Mexican-built Futura sedan, which will replace the Taurus, will arrive in 2005. A revised, more retro Mustang that will arrive next fall inherits a profitable vehicle line.
Although Ford has outsold Toyota so far in calendar year 2003, Toyota's recent surge is surely one of its biggest milestones: For six months, the Japanese automaker has been outsold only by GM. And from 1996 to 2002, Toyota's global sales increased to 6.17 million annually from 4.75 million, according to Automotive News. During the same time frame, GM's sales increased to only 8.5 million from 8.4 million, and Ford's to 6.8 million from 6.6 million; 30% growth at Toyota compared with 1% at GM and 3% at Ford.
Toyota now outsells and out-earns Ford in passenger cars. American automakers are shifting their attention to trucks, perhaps because they are beginning to throw in the towel on passenger cars in favor of the Japanese.
"In cars, Toyota owns the place," says Brian Lund, equity analyst for Morningstar. "GM and Ford and Chrysler have, in many ways, given up on cars. They have retained interest in luxury vehicles and light trucks, because they are high margin. In terms of cars, they maintain what they do because of fuel efficiency requirements."
Indeed, the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standard, which is regulated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency, applies to a company's aggregate fuel economy. Having small cars with good gas mileage in the fleet helps offset the damage done by increasing numbers of SUVs.
What it boils down to is that Toyota builds better cars--across the board. According to J.D. Power's 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study--which measures the durability of vehicles three years after their purchase--Toyota finished second. Ford finished eighth. Lexus was the number one nameplate for the ninth consecutive year. Moreover, J.D. Power's 17th annual Initial Quality Study, which polls owners of new cars after 90 days of ownership, ranks Toyota as the top corporation for initial quality. Ford is seventh. Lexus is the number one nameplate, and Toyota occupies the top three positions in the rankings of assembly plant quality.
As for the high cost of American labor, Toyota simply dodges it. General Motors spends as much on health care as it does on steel, and both GM and Ford have enormous liabilities for their pension programs that make profitability very difficult. Were it not for their moneymaking financing and credit service arms, GM and Ford would not be profitable.
The steadiness and reliability of Toyota's products is also mirrored by a consistent management style that, unlike at American companies, does not change dramatically when new people take over the top positions, according to George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, an automotive-consulting firm in Tustin, Calif.
Still, despite all of these reasons for Toyota's success, we wanted to see how Ford and Toyota cars compared head-to-head. The sales figures and prices speak for themselves and show that Toyota is not under-selling its products, or even significantly under-cutting American offerings. And Toyota is selling cars without the generous incentives and special financing that blanket American automakers' dealings and hamper profits.
We looked at both companies' bread-and-butter cars as well as their top-of-the-line models. See for yourself why Ford has blown its lead. And consider: Now that Standard & Poor's has cut Ford's credit rating to just above junk status, Ford may have an even harder time spending the money it needs to solve its problems.
At the same time, Toyota has nothing but money. It added $10.4 billion to its cash reserves during the first half of fiscal-year 2004. That pile of cash and cash equivalents is reportedly bigger than $40 billion, and Toyota's market capitalization, as of Oct. 13, was $107 billion, more than four times Ford's $25 billion (or GM's $24 billion). Facing a competitor with so much money and momentum behind, Ford will find it harder still to regain the number two spot.
AzSnake said:LOL, that funny. Fords basically rewrote the same info that was released in earlier press releases that were proved incorrect.
Your info is not factual.
The Toy pres has even confirmed that the info released WAS incorrect. This is also with Toyota adding up their subsidiaries. Well if you’re going to calculate that you gotta add up Ford sales, Mazda sales, Jag sales, Rang Rover Sales, Lincoln sales, Mercury sales, Aston Martin sales, Volvo sales.
Go check the truck sales, not even close. In fact Ford sold something like over 1 million more trucks than Toyota did and Fords market share in the full size truck segment grew this year.
Like I said if your going to tabulate the Toyota total sales like your are showing them then all of fords companies have to be added to Fords totals.
It would be a slaughter in Fords favor.
I work in marketing and sales for a 2 billion dollar a year revenue company. I know how to cut through the BS and read the facts. You are reading it exactly how the writer wants you to which isn't the real story.
JonJon said:..... the 99 was in production WELL before december 1999. I'd guess sometime in late 1998. I got my car in late August 99. They were clearing inventory for the 2000's.
351CJ said:G-)(% D$#@^ It was a typo.
I ment to type December 1998 as the start of productin for the 1999 model year. The point being that the 1999 was late as production normally starts late July or early August.
new22003 said:With the Japanese now concentrating on the large truck and SUV segment and Toyota surpassing fords sales, ford has to do something to get back into the passenger car business. Even Honda has shown a light truck they are building. The market was profitable for them because U.S. automakers had a real monopoly. The f-150 supports a large part of ford by itself.
[snip......]
rjstaaf said:Take a look at the following link. Admittedly it is Ford propoganda but, you get an idea how the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra really compare to the big three. The best word I can come up with is anemic. Pay close attention to the differences in the frames, the ring and pinion and the inner body structure. The imports are built like a car, not a truck.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/
WantACobra said:I think that the point you and everyone else seem to miss is this;
2 years ago did you have any japanese vehicle to even compare the f-150 to?
What was the market share of Japanese trucks in 1985?
What is the market share of Japanese trucks in 2004?
Have the japs sucessfully produced cars in markets that were dominated by american cars before?
No one is saying they are better, but a market divided 3 ways was much easier than one split 6 ways. You all seem to be debating a point that wasnt even brought up (which truck is better).
If some of you dont think the the American car comapnies underestimating the Japanese threat hurt them is the past then perhaps you should review your automotive history.
rjstaaf said:Take a look at the following link. Admittedly it is Ford propoganda but, you get an idea how the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra really compare to the big three. The best word I can come up with is anemic. Pay close attention to the differences in the frames, the ring and pinion and the inner body structure. The imports are built like a car, not a truck.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/
new22003 said:You seem a bit less like a flamer and perhaps someone that could be objective so please read through this.
You may have read something into my statements that wasnt there. I do agree that the f-150 is the best truck out there. There was no statement in this thread by me to say anything against that.
I didnt need to compare the trucks as I knew which was the better truck, the f-150.
But go back through and be objective. Then ask yourself a few questions that were posted above.
Do japanese makers have a habit of getting slowly into a market and then taking over?
Has toyota been growing at double digit rates while ford has only managed 1-3% growth?
Was toyota even close enough in sales to ford in 1990 to argue about?
Where did those 100,000 Nissan Titan sales come from?
Is the titan closer to the f-150 than anything ever offered by a japanese firm?
Why would toyota get into Nascar, what market are they targeting with that move?
How much has toyotas market share increased since 1990?
How much has ford market share increased sine 1990?
If you had asked the average person in 1990 who would have the highest horsepower base v8 truck in 2004 do you think anyone would have said Nissan?
We can love ford and support our favorite company but to blind ourselves to the fact that the japanese are moving into another american dominated market would doom us to repeat the mistakes of the 1980's. To say they cant compete would be repeating what people said about the family car in the 1980's. Now the two best selling family cars are Japanese models.
one2gamble said:Fords N.A sales will continue to drop because they are cutting their fleet sales and moving towards new cars and new platforms. I wouldnt be suprised that Toy gets close because the next two years are very much transition years for Ford. After that we will see what happens.
one2gamble said:After that we will see what happens. As someone posted earlier, Toy did not surpass Ford in total sales...yet.
rjstaaf said:Actually I didn't really have any point by my post other than to share the link.
I think biggest problem the US automakers face is one of perception. Too many people automatically assume a vehicle with a Japanese or European nameplate is automatically better than a similar vehicle with a US nameplate.
Motor Trend
2007 Vehicle Forecast
2007 Toyota Tundra : Tired of being the small player in the big full-size truck arena, Toyota will super-size the next-generation Tundra, as suggested by the dramatic FTX concept unveiled at that 2004 Chicago Auto Show. The FTX is a huge machine measuring 19 feet long and nearly 7 feet wide, with a bed edge that is eye-level. Ready for off-road adventures, this 4x4 wears 37-inch tires and isolates passengers from trail harshness with suspension-fitted seats. Retractable side step rails aid ingress/egress, and even cargo loading. A hidden ramp at the rear helps roll heavy items or recreation machines into the bed. This concept features a hybrid V-8 powertrain, reportedly under consideration for the next Tundra, though it will not be offered at launch. Look for the next Tundra to arrive in 2006 with a 5.4L V-8.
new22003 said:I do agree ford is in a transition. Read my first posts as to what started this
This is the point I was trying to point out. The fact that this is even close enough to talk about speaks volumes about what has been happening to the market. There was a time in very recent history when the difference would have been in the millions, not close enough to even debate.
one2gamble said:The small truck segment is another one that Ford is ignoring, a new ranger is in dire need and it needs to stay small. GM's biggest mistake was making their trucks "mid size" in my opinion they have to be taking away from sales of their silverado line.
new22003 said:This is the point I was trying to point out. The fact that this is even close enough to talk about speaks volumes about what has been happening to the market. There was a time in very recent history when the difference would have been in the millions, not close enough to even debate.
No you’re trying to create a problem.new22003 said:I am trying to get people to admit there will be a problem and competition so we don’t put blinders on and repeat all the mistakes we made with the Japanese before.
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