Stock Brakes and Tracking

Khyron · Mar 6, 2008

Hey all.. I was wondering something. How good will the stock brakes perform on the track with some upgraded pads (like Hawk for example)? I mean, will there be a noticable problem with them fading to the point it is unsafe? Or will they perform almost as good as upgrading to a "big brake kit"?

Now I know the *best* answer to this question will be "upgrade to some 14" Brembos, Baer, etc.. up front". However, let's assume we have to stick with the stock brakes. Will they be OK or is it just a bad idea that should never be attempted?

DarkFireGT · Mar 6, 2008

Prepping for MMM? The Hawk pads will definitely give you a noticeable increase in stopping power. You might wanna throw some rotopro's on while you're at it, but the pads are the most effective part. Unless you're constantly road racing, the only reason to upgrade to a big brake kit is the look.

Redfire 05 · Mar 6, 2008

I did a racing school last year with the stock brakes. Our driving sessions were 10 laps on a 1.7mile course and noticed a lot of fade towards the end of each session. I definitely had to back off the last couple of laps. The course was a mixture of fast sweeping turns and tight twisty sections. The brakes got worked pretty hard in some places. You can see a picture of the course at the link provided if you wish. I would say any upgrade over the stock setup would make a big difference but you can run some hot laps on the stock setup and survive. Just be cautious because they will fade.

I've upgraded to hawk pads and I've got stock size slotted DBA rotors. I'm hopping they fade less this year.

http://www.sandiamotorsports.com/images/aerial_photo_sm.jpg

Redfire 05 · Mar 6, 2008

Oops, I just noticed your signature. Looks like your car has a good deal of power. That can definitely get you into trouble because of the increased speeds. I'm not sure pads alone will do much for fade, but you could look at some cooling vents. They are far cheaper than big brakes and they would likely help reduce fade a bunch. Agent 47 makes a vent kit for $199. I know I saw one somewhere else too, but I forget where.

Snooze · Mar 6, 2008

stock pads are garbage for a track. Pickup a trackable pad. - Hawk and EBC are brands that i use, and i prefer EBC's "yellow stuff" as a track pad. Ceramic is decent enough, but when they get hot you'll notice a little more fade then usual, opposed to an organic track pad.

Now to be close to a "big brake kit" stopping power. Not a bloody chance with our 2pot-1pot setup. (i say this because my last car was a 2007 STI. and those 6pot/2pot setup was incredibly better than this mustang.)
But it will definatly improve your stopping power, and give you a noticable edge over stock brakes.

If your still noticing brake fade during medium race tempatures (ie.. 4laps as opposed to 10laps) then you'll want to upgrade your rotors to a slotted/vented/drilled style. There is no real performance upgrade between drilled or slotted. Their entirly for looks. but - if your brakes are over-heating then a slotted or drilled vented rotor will definatly keep things cool and clean.

If your fade is fine, and your looking for a little more responsivness and bite in the braking intself (as the pedal is pretty dull.. Mash on, or Mash off. there is no feeling to the stangs brakes) pickup a set of more aggressive pads (if you don't mind them eating rotors for breakfest lunch and dinner) and use them on track days. Aswell as a set of braided brake lines and some high-tempature brake fluid.

Other then that - i wish you good days on the track!

Mr_Q · Mar 6, 2008

Hawk HPS+ pads and Agent47s brake coolers plus a fluid swap and you can have lots of safe fun. (Anymore more aggressive like Hawk Blues tend to chew up the stock rotors on our heavy cars)

I don't do more than 2 or 3 (max) track days a year. The brake coolers were the most pricey mod but really with just those you will be fine. That only leaves pads and fluid for the day of race.

Again with those coolers you really can stay out; all laps and all day. The car in stock form (unmodded suspension and tires) won't let you push hard enough to cook the brakes with those coolers.

I'm running around with the Shelby's Ford Racing suspension setup but on stock tires. So long before the brakes are toast the tires are dead. I get about 3 hot laps, if lucky, before I need to pull it back and ultimately head to pits and let them cool.

When it's time for new tires I am going with a nice compromise tire. The Eagle F1 Asymms. Low noise for a daily driver/track tire. Treadwear of 240 so they are sticky yet won't be gone after 5,000 miles.

jlisle01 · Mar 6, 2008

I'll +1 Mr_Q's advice. The stock brakes are simply not adequate for road course duty. Trust me, I know, I brought my car in with the left front wheel in flames! You WILL get fade and as your lap times decrease the problem will get worse. However, if you must stick to the stock setup then I would suggest the following.

Flush your brakes with a good DOT4 fluid. I like Motul RBF600. Great stuff at, well, not an astronomical price anyway. 4 bottles will be enough to make sure you get all of the old stuff out.

Get a good street pad like the Hawk HPS or some of the others that have been mentioned. DONT go any higher than a good street pad. You actually want the pads to fade as having them stop working forces you to slow down before you damage the calipers. That's how I cooked my stockers. I "upgraded" to a race quality pad and the pad kept working and building heat until I melted a hole thru the brake piston.

Get a set of cooling ducts, they are worth more than anything else you can do for the brakes. No BS. The agent 47 stuff is great. I personally like the kit from quantum motorsports. http://www.quantummotorsports.com/05-07MustangKits.htm#Plate Kit

When you order the pads get some temperature paint and use it. It will tell you whats going on and could very well save you a fortune. You can also use the temps you get to make an informed decision on what you need to do next.
http://www.brakeshopper.com/temperature_paint.shtml

At the track, use your cool down lap wisely, enter the pits slow, avoiding the use of the brakes, and then stop the car in gear. ***Do not set the parking brake!*** Let the car cool for about 15 minutes and then push it just enough to rotate the tires a half of a turn. That will keep your pads from cooking against one spot on the rotor. Good luck and have a blast.

Houstonnw · Mar 7, 2008

I did about 10 track days at Texas World Speedway with my '07 GT on the Pirelli Nero all season tires and stock brake pads. I did run into fade a few times but just started braking a little earlier.

When I got moved up into the yellow group (green, blue, yellow, red, instructor) I was in the way and so bought better tires and brake pads. I went with Carbotech because you don't need different rotors for the street and track pads. Now I use the Bobcat pads on the street and the XP10's on the front and XP8's on the rear for track days. I also upgraded to Castrol SRF brake fluid. Now I cannot make the brakes fade and the American Iron instructor that drove my car commented how good the brakes were.

Now this was in early March, so I'll have to determine this summer if I need cooling ducts. With more HP you might, but then again I'm not sure that you are going to be faster than an AI driver.

-Wayne

Mr_Q · Mar 7, 2008

It really depends on the track. The Streets of Willow here in Willow Springs, CA is murder on brakes.

From May to Sept it's 90-105 out there--AIR temp. Forget the track temps! You could roast a pig. Add in the 120mph+ sections that go down in to tight 35mph turns then no wonder you watch your brakes and tires vanish in to smoke.

But it is FUN, especially CCW. Elevation changes, off camber, fast straights, sweet turn-ins...it's heaven.

sonnier · Mar 7, 2008

Houstonnw said:
I did about 10 track days at Texas World Speedway with my '07 GT on the Pirelli Nero all season tires and stock brake pads. I did run into fade a few times but just started braking a little earlier.

When I got moved up into the yellow group (green, blue, yellow, red, instructor) I was in the way and so bought better tires and brake pads. I went with Carbotech because you don't need different rotors for the street and track pads. Now I use the Bobcat pads on the street and the XP10's on the front and XP8's on the rear for track days. I also upgraded to Castrol SRF brake fluid. Now I cannot make the brakes fade and the American Iron instructor that drove my car commented how good the brakes were.

Now this was in early March, so I'll have to determine this summer if I need cooling ducts. With more HP you might, but then again I'm not sure that you are going to be faster than an AI driver.

-Wayne

I was going to talk to you more about your brakes. I totally went through my front Porterfield R-4Ss on Sunday last weekend. I'm upgrading soon to better pads. I used Ate Super Blue for that event and didn't experience any fading like I had with the stock fluid, though. My bias was getting thrown off as the front pads wore down to nothing though. I ended up going off track narrowly missing a spun M3 but even big brakes wouldn't have stopped that. I ended up picking up some Motul RBF600 which I've used before and will be switching too and will be upgrading to Steeda brake lines for a little better feel. Brake ducting is in the cards but at the moment I'm trying to decide on a pad to go with. I'm more than likely going with Hawk HP+s since I just set up a deal for them.

Khyron · Mar 7, 2008

All these responses is why this forum is so great. Thank you everyone.

jlisle01 - Which kit did you go with from Quantum Motorsports? I see they have 3 available.

Here's my follow-up question... Almost everyone here recommends changing the brake fluid before track days. The last time I changed brake fluid it was in my '67 Mustang, which required the horrific bleeding of brakes with someone pumping the brake pedal.. etc. What is the procedure for changing the fluid in the S197s?

Thanks in advance!

sonnier · Mar 7, 2008

Khyron said:
All these responses is why this forum is so great. Thank you everyone.

jlisle01 - Which kit did you go with from Quantum Motorsports? I see they have 3 available.

Here's my follow-up question... Almost everyone here recommends changing the brake fluid before track days. The last time I changed brake fluid it was in my '67 Mustang, which required the horrific bleeding of brakes with someone pumping the brake pedal.. etc. What is the procedure for changing the fluid in the S197s?

Thanks in advance!

You can do it the same way with a bottle bleeder. I used a vacuum bleeder as you can do it by yourself but I've also heard that those can also leave bubble in the lines and supposedly aren't good for abs, so be warned.

Steel · Mar 7, 2008

My opinion is very similar to the other guys .

I do trackdays with the stang , about 10/12 a year .

With the stock brakes I could stand barely a 25 minutes session , while since I upgraded to Hawk + steel lines + dot 5.1 (motul) , I can attend to the morning events ( 3 hours , you stop when you want and then go again ... )

I use yokohama advan tyres on 18" bullits , since here it' s a bit difficult to find different tires for 255/45/18 rims.

DarkFireGT · Mar 7, 2008

sonnier said:
You can do it the same way with a bottle bleeder. I used a vacuum bleeder as you can do it by yourself but I've also heard that those can also leave bubble in the lines and supposedly aren't good for abs, so be warned.

I tried a vacuum bleeder recently. It doesn't seem to work very well with our systems. Much easier to have a helper. Which is a PITA for me, because I usually work on the cars when the old lady's away. But I learned to get the car up on and ready, then call her out to come help. AFTER buying my vacuum pump, I read this article. Looks like the best way is the tried and tested 2 man operation:
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/braketool/bleeder.htm

jlisle01 · Mar 7, 2008

Khyron said:
All these responses is why this forum is so great. Thank you everyone.

jlisle01 - Which kit did you go with from Quantum Motorsports? I see they have 3 available.

Here's my follow-up question... Almost everyone here recommends changing the brake fluid before track days. The last time I changed brake fluid it was in my '67 Mustang, which required the horrific bleeding of brakes with someone pumping the brake pedal.. etc. What is the procedure for changing the fluid in the S197s?

Thanks in advance!

I installed the cooling ducts I have before the Quantum kits were available so I actually have a pieced together kit that consists of the bumper inlets from a Steeda kit (which is total crap by the way) and rotor ducts from Quantum. I'd go with the in-between (race) kit. The only difference between the street and race kits is the hose. I wouldn't trust a hose that's only good to 250 degrees on the track. Their hose, by the way, is absolutely the best I've seen. As a matter of fact, if you check their "testimonials" page you'll find me there commenting on their hose. I'm replacing the stuff I bought from Pegasus Racing with Quantum's orange race hose this summer.

As for the bleeding, it's pretty straight forward if you have a helper. Same as an older car. Just remember to go in order- rear passenger side, rear driver side, front passenger side, front drivers side. It's definitely worth the trouble. I do a track bleed (just a few ounces from each caliper) after every track day just to be sure.

If you get out on track and experience fade pay attention to how the brake pedal feels. If the pedal starts sinking deeper and deeper with each application then it's fluid fade. If the pedal stays firm but the brakes are just not as effective the it's the pads that are failing on you. Seriously though, all this brake talk has gone around the bend. I'd change the fluid, get the cooling ducts, some Hawk HPS pads all around, and dab a little temperature indicating paint on the rotor edges and then get out there already! With the ducts and some good fluid and pads you'll be fine until you really start haulin some serious butt. When the temps start going over 750 degrees you'll need to figure out what to do but my guess is that you'll be fine for quite a while.

Mr_Q · Mar 7, 2008

jlisle01 said:
all this brake talk has gone around the bend. I'd change the fluid, get the cooling ducts, some Hawk HPS pads all around, and dab a little temperature indicating paint on the rotor edges and then get out there already!

+1

o0Dan0o · Mar 7, 2008

I didn't read all the posts, but I'll repeat what the others said. Ducts to cool the brakes will help tons, Agent 47 and steed and FRPP (I believe) make kits, or you can make your own. It's really not that hard to do, but for the cost of some of those kits I would just go with the premade brackets.

Next is pads, good street/tack pads should do ok, you can use track only pads but you will want to install them and bed them in at the track so you don't have issues on the street.

Finally, bleed the brakes with quality fluid. I actually use Fords DOT fluid. It has a very high boiling temp, until water gets in it. But thats ok, just bleed them before and after every event. Before to make sure there's no water in the fluid, and after to get out all the fluid you cooked at the track.
Dan

walter · Mar 7, 2008

lets not forget that upgrading the lines with braided units will do wonders for feel and fade especially when combined with pads rotors and fluid upgrades

jlisle01 · Mar 7, 2008

o0Dan0o said:
Finally, bleed the brakes with quality fluid. I actually use Fords DOT fluid. It has a very high boiling temp, until water gets in it. But that's ok, just bleed them before and after every event. Before to make sure there's no water in the fluid, and after to get out all the fluid you cooked at the track.
Dan

I wouldn't feel bad about using the Ford Heavy duty fluid at all. For a DOT4 fluid it's wet boiling point isn't too good, but out of the can it's dry boiling point is among the best. Actually, a lot of road racing teams use the Ford HD fluid (even teams who race those bow tie cars) because it is really good stuff and it's cheap enough that they can change it after every day. That's what I've read anyway.

Houstonnw · Mar 12, 2008

Khyron said:
Here's my follow-up question... Almost everyone here recommends changing the brake fluid before track days. The last time I changed brake fluid it was in my '67 Mustang, which required the horrific bleeding of brakes with someone pumping the brake pedal.. etc. What is the procedure for changing the fluid in the S197s?

Thanks in advance!

After the wife and daughter got tired of helping me bleed the brakes, I bought the Earl's Solo Bleeders. '05+ Mustangs use the 10mm x 1.0, I'm not sure about other years.

They work great, you simply open them about 1/2 turn and the spring keeps the fluid from coming out until you press the pedal. When you let up on the pedal the spring again keeps air from getting in.

I used them before my last track day at TWS and didn't notice any leakage.

The real risk is that you can go through brake fluid so easily that you have to be careful you don't empty the master cylinder.

Stock Brakes and Tracking

Khyron

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DarkFireGT

Playing with my wife's really makes me want one.

Redfire 05

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Redfire 05

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Snooze

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Mr_Q

jlisle01

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Houstonnw

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sonnier

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Khyron

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sonnier

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Steel

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DarkFireGT

Playing with my wife's really makes me want one.

jlisle01

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Mr_Q

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walter

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