Just wanted to start a discussion on what is the best set-up for NA cars. Should you run bigger flowing intake port heads with a small cam or a bigger cam with a smaller flowing intake port heads?
Opinions?
Opinions?
Survey On Whats The Best Set-up.
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Well, I was just looking for real world data from forum builds. I hear this and that and there are many opinions on which is best. I already have my combo in my signature. Just wanted to see what others were running and what type of power they were making. I'm guessing at this point. Some say AFR185's are too big for a 306? Kind of the direction I was headed in.
Well, the engine master vid is not real world in my book. How many members on this site have a 410 CI stroker stuffed in their fox body. Was looking for more data points than just one engine to see what is really correct.
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Not sure if you're on Corral too, but here's some combos worth copying. http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0...905-302-306-tfs-11r-combo-results-thread.html
Not sure if you're on Corral too, but here's some combos worth copying. http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0...905-302-306-tfs-11r-combo-results-thread.html
AFR185s absolutely are not too big for a 306. Nikwoac made ~330rwhp with a 205cc CNC ported head on his 302. However, I believe you'll have to notch the pistons with the AFR185, whereas you would not need to notch for the AFR165s.
It's kinda funny that there are a lot of folks on the TFS bandwagon, now. AFRs were the bandwagon for a long time. Oh well, forum opinions are wishy-washy. Both are top of the line heads that flow and run neck and neck in airflow and on dynos. I do believe I'd give the 11R heads a try on a new build, but they were not available at the time I made the decision and there's no way I'd go to them over the Renegade AFR 205s on mine, now. If, and it is an "if", they made any more hp than the AFRs, it would be insignificant.
If I were building a cost-no-object 302 N/A build, then I'd be looking at AFR185s or the 11R 170s or 190s. The port volumes between AFR and TFS are not directly comparable. The difference in the valve angle means that TFS heads sounds smaller than they actually are. Cross-sectional area would be a better way to compare these heads.
It's kinda funny that there are a lot of folks on the TFS bandwagon, now. AFRs were the bandwagon for a long time. Oh well, forum opinions are wishy-washy. Both are top of the line heads that flow and run neck and neck in airflow and on dynos. I do believe I'd give the 11R heads a try on a new build, but they were not available at the time I made the decision and there's no way I'd go to them over the Renegade AFR 205s on mine, now. If, and it is an "if", they made any more hp than the AFRs, it would be insignificant.
If I were building a cost-no-object 302 N/A build, then I'd be looking at AFR185s or the 11R 170s or 190s. The port volumes between AFR and TFS are not directly comparable. The difference in the valve angle means that TFS heads sounds smaller than they actually are. Cross-sectional area would be a better way to compare these heads.
I wouldn't consider this a tech question, though. It should probably be in the 5.0 general/talk forum.
Let's not start another argument between the big cam and the big head guys. All the heads are within nickels and dimes of each other for the same port volume. I'm from the generation before the TFs and the AFRs. Back in my day everyone bought Performer RPMs unless you were a badass, and then you got the Canfields. I still have my badass Canfields.
Kurt
Kurt
mikestang63
SN Certified Technician
best is a subjective term. You can get two of the three
cheap
fast
good
It all depends on what your budget and goal is. Are you happy with 300Rwhp? Do you need to be the fastest kid on the block? What are the rest of your supporting parts, transmission, rear end, suspension, etc... Bottom line are there are a number of proven HCI combinations out there- it depends on your wallet and goal.
cheap
fast
good
It all depends on what your budget and goal is. Are you happy with 300Rwhp? Do you need to be the fastest kid on the block? What are the rest of your supporting parts, transmission, rear end, suspension, etc... Bottom line are there are a number of proven HCI combinations out there- it depends on your wallet and goal.
@srtthis will agree with me , I've never seen a afr head come close to touching the tfs head these days in something max effort . Just about all of the fast radial stuff all has a tfs R Or highport on it
I am a tfs fan for sure . No cost build ? CNC Trick flow high Ports .
Ok. I'll go with you on the latest TFS heads seemingly having an advantage. That's why I said I'd build that way with a from scratch build, today. However, AFR not coming close? I'm open-minded, but that will take some convincing.
So, perhaps you can show me something more up-to-date than but in the same style as this old article?
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0608-cylinder-head-shootout/
Richard Holdener did stuff the right way. Same day, same motor, same dyno with a full run down of all of the specs and parts involved. The TFS head in this shootout made a negligible bit more power over the AFR.
AFR and TFS have changed their game up, but I've not seen anything like this in a long time. Have you?
So, perhaps you can show me something more up-to-date than but in the same style as this old article?
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0608-cylinder-head-shootout/
Richard Holdener did stuff the right way. Same day, same motor, same dyno with a full run down of all of the specs and parts involved. The TFS head in this shootout made a negligible bit more power over the AFR.
AFR and TFS have changed their game up, but I've not seen anything like this in a long time. Have you?
Gear grabber
Well-Known Member
- May 23, 2016
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But it is real world. If you want to make big n/a power on pump gas.
I thought about HCI for instant gratification,thank god I didn't. Saved
for what seemed like forever,for a Dart block 427,TFS heads,ported
super vic. Blah,blah,blah so glad I did.
Biggest head and exhaust you can afford, custom cam and intake recommendation from cam grinder.
The engine masters compare was interesting, but not realistic in my opinion. 220cc heads are not big on a 410" motor and the cam seemed to be what was lying around.
Joe
The engine masters compare was interesting, but not realistic in my opinion. 220cc heads are not big on a 410" motor and the cam seemed to be what was lying around.
Joe
kind of a loaded question.
The larger head will offer the same power as the smaller head with better drive-abilty and less requirement for rpm.
Start throwing the same "better" drive-abity requirements at the smaller head, will require "less" cam, and now the smaller head starts giving up power.
Allow the large head to have similar drive-ability (more "wild") as the smaller head, and now the larger head is going to make more power than the smaller head.
This is providing the inlet and exhaust is correct for each.
It's a juggling act.
Back in the day, to make good power you had to have a wild cam, because, we didn't have the "big" heads that are now available, since most folks don't want a wild cam, we didn't make big power. Now, we have the big heads, and people can run a mild cam, make power and still have nice idle and drive-ability... it's all the rage.
AFR vs TW... really comes down to what you are wanting to run for a piston. I quite like my pistons, so, if I were going to buy heads for my 306 I'd go with AFR Renegade 195's, throw 1-7/8" headers and 3" exhaust on it, port the heck out of my Victor and I'll assure you all the TW guys would wonder what happened. Nothing happened, I just selected the head that best matched the pistons I'm running.
Again, it's not just the heads... it's everything...
If I wanted to run some other piston (or a stock piston), then maybe the TW's would come into the mix...dunno, have not looked into it.
Every h/c/i shootout I've read in a magazine or watched online always ended with 'we know we left some power on the table' and start talking about if they had done this or that but I think it boils down to setting a approximate hp/tq number, matched parts combinations to gearing, tire size and trans type then hope for the best. Around 300 hp on the street is fun and useable.
It's not worth the 25 hp difference if you have to wing it to 6k to get it. I like torque numbers myself.
I agree with what cleanLx says.
It's not worth the 25 hp difference if you have to wing it to 6k to get it. I like torque numbers myself.
I agree with what cleanLx says.
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High port isn't anything new honestly . Maybe the programs they are running on them are . Afr headed cars just cannot hang we've seen it first hand in ultra street . I'm not saying they are a terrible head and will not make power for a fun fast car even a wild one . Data at the track tells me the Tfs heads are dominating in class racing as far as a in line head is concerned .
While I don't doubt your personal experience. If you ever come across something more tangible, I'd appreciate the info.
The thread subject of "big heads on small cube engines" seems to be the latest topics that horses are protesting over at Corral.
