Ok. I know this has most likely been discussed in many threads but I’m new to this an need opinions. Let me start by saying I’m a fox body purist. I love the sound and always have. We all new when a fox body was coming just by the sound. I just recently bought a fox coupe. Bought it cause the body was as straight as could be. Not happy with the mechanics but I’m anal with that stuff. I’ve always wanted to do a terminator swap cause it gives me that classic mustang sound with modern tech. That being said. I want to bring my fox to the modern era. Do I spend the extra cash on a termi set up or go coyote. I have seen so many opinions on this. Compression ratio with boost vs N.A. high compression engine. Has anyone out there compared the 2, physically? I don’t need super numbers. It’s going to be a street queen.
Termi vs coyote
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Thats a tough one. Both power plants are light weight and the stock coyote is great n/a in a light weight foxbody. The terminator may need a little help to match the coyote hp numbers and there are some blower options to up the hp numbers, it may come down to money, the aluminum 4.6 with a blower (I like blowers, what can I say) may be a few dollars less to transplant.
Just my inexperienced opinion.
Like the old say'n goes: what kind of kool can you afford?
Ok, that's not an old say'n, I just made that up.
Just my inexperienced opinion.
Like the old say'n goes: what kind of kool can you afford?
Ok, that's not an old say'n, I just made that up.
Wait for the release of the gen III coyote. Direct port injection.
Plus you won’t have to rebuild it right away since you know all the parts are new.
You’ll have to get the control pack too. That seems expensive on first view, but what will you do about running a terminator? You’ll use a 14-15 year old wiring system that might be damaged. Or you’ll have to buy new from Ron Francis or Painless, then you’ll want a new engine management system like PMS or Holley.
You’ll end up spending roughly the same amount for either swap. Except your anal side will be much happier with a brand new engine that has a two year warranty from the factory.
Just my thoughts.
Plus you won’t have to rebuild it right away since you know all the parts are new.
You’ll have to get the control pack too. That seems expensive on first view, but what will you do about running a terminator? You’ll use a 14-15 year old wiring system that might be damaged. Or you’ll have to buy new from Ron Francis or Painless, then you’ll want a new engine management system like PMS or Holley.
You’ll end up spending roughly the same amount for either swap. Except your anal side will be much happier with a brand new engine that has a two year warranty from the factory.
Just my thoughts.
Mod motors sound different then pushrods, so the classic 5.0 sound you reference may not be what you expect. However, I think they sound awesome too. Hands down coyote, it is so much more advanced and capable then the old 4.6. The 4.6 can make tons of power, but the coyote is capable of more and will make more naturally aspirated then the stock termi.
Joe
Joe
It's only expensive until you compare it to the other controls available. You also have to consider what all comes with the control pack and what doesn't come with the crate motor or the changes that need to be made to a pulled motor like the fuel system. The control pack comes with the air intake and the drive by wire throttle which the others controls may offer as an add on cost. Furthermore the Ford control pack PCM is ready for systems like the AiM electric steering which none of the other controls offer. Start adding it all up and the Ford control pack is a pretty good deal.
Edit: Last I saw was the only control pack still available from Ford for the 4.6 is for the 3V motor.
Not a fan of GDi.... without gas washing over the valves, the intake valves build up with carbon, since fuel never touches them... so the oily blow by just builds up on them and bakes on.... so as time goes on, your losing performance due to carbon build up, affecting airflow....
-Coyote motor is physically smaller than a 4.6 32V due to the cylinder head design being more compact. Block size is the same.
-In a coyote you are starting off with a MUCH better cylinder head design
-Coyote has a much more complicated valve train system (not a bad thing, just something to be aware)
-Coyote has more HP potential then the 4.6 due to the cylinder design, bay to bay breathing, and various other performance improvements
-Coyote block is stronger, though either would be just fine at the HP level you are describing
-EIther's stock internals will hold up to the power level you're describing (boosted or N/A)
-Coyote N/A is lighter than the 4.6 Termi motor stock, and makes more power
-It will sound different than a pushrod 5.0, buy either sounds great in a fox IMO
-Coyote offers better MPG and much better N/A low end torque due to the variable cam timing
-Coyote's rev higher than a termi
I will second that the ford controls pack is really a great deal. I have one sitting in my attic right now and am impressed with OEM quality and features. A coyote swap is not cheap though (to do it right and retain power steering, ect), so it all comes down to what you can find for what price, and what you want to spend. Either is a great platform.
-In a coyote you are starting off with a MUCH better cylinder head design
-Coyote has a much more complicated valve train system (not a bad thing, just something to be aware)
-Coyote has more HP potential then the 4.6 due to the cylinder design, bay to bay breathing, and various other performance improvements
-Coyote block is stronger, though either would be just fine at the HP level you are describing
-EIther's stock internals will hold up to the power level you're describing (boosted or N/A)
-Coyote N/A is lighter than the 4.6 Termi motor stock, and makes more power
-It will sound different than a pushrod 5.0, buy either sounds great in a fox IMO
-Coyote offers better MPG and much better N/A low end torque due to the variable cam timing
-Coyote's rev higher than a termi
I will second that the ford controls pack is really a great deal. I have one sitting in my attic right now and am impressed with OEM quality and features. A coyote swap is not cheap though (to do it right and retain power steering, ect), so it all comes down to what you can find for what price, and what you want to spend. Either is a great platform.
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The Gen 3 coyote has both port and direct injection, which helps to eliminate this problem since it can leverage the benefits of either DI or port Injection. I know what you're talking about though (used to own a TSFI 2.0 Audi) and will never buy another DI only motor again.
- Mar 2, 2015
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The direct port injection only systems ate having alot of issues. I work on them every day. If you own one be prepared to shoot walnut shells in the intake and exhaust ports to knock the carbon off the valve stems. Guess the engineers didn't think about that, or didn't care.
Coyote all day, my man ! .... or save money and throw a chevy engine in it. It's all in what you want.
Coyote all day, my man ! .... or save money and throw a chevy engine in it. It's all in what you want.
7upstang91
10 Year Member
I really think they don't care, it's guaranteed return business for them. I couldn't believe the carbon buildup on the valves the first time I had the intake off of my 2.0 TSFI. I read somewhere that part of BMW's 30K service on one of their DI motors is to pull the head off and walnut blast the valves. That's just ridiculous, no engine in today's age should require a that type of service at 30K. That's just bad engineering IMO.
I built the powertrain on a pre-runner for a friend and the F150 he started with had a 4.2. The 4.2 is a 6 cylinder, push rod engine made to match a lot of the modular's characteristics including a seamless interchangeable fit with the OHC modulars and even it weighed 20 lbs. more than the Coyote that replaced it.
I think the terminator is still awesome, even though it's 15 year old technology at this point. I will always have a soft spot for that motor. It's just hard to beat the capability of the coyote.
Or there is no point in arguing? As Christian Koenigsegg said, the 4.6 is one of the few, rare sweet spot engines that doesn't produce the destructive harmonics that tear most engines apart when they're taken to that level few go. This isn't a direct quote but close enough to convey his sentiment when he beat out the Veyron for the production car speed record with the Ford 4.6 platform.
I really doubt that about the engineers. A better sentiment is probably along the lines of "the accountants and management," made the decisions about what was done.
67coupe
Founding Member
As someone who did a termi swap, maybe I can provide some thoughts to consider.
Ask yourself these questions:
1). What’s your final power goal for the car?
Simple bolt ons will take a termi close to 500rwhp. Bolt on coyotes top out around 450 rwhp. The termi will have have instant torque while the coyote will be more of a high rpm power producer. If your looking for higher power levels, do the coyote swap and add a blower later as it will probably win the hp/dollar contest.
2). How much are you concerned with handling characteristics?
The termi adds ALOT of weight over the nose of the car. Handling will suffer. From what I’ve read, the coyote is pretty much the same weight as the 302. Something to note, sway bar modifications are required with the termi swap. The alt interferes with the drivers side mount bracket which must be cut off.
3). What accessories/features do you want to keep? (A\C, power steering, cruise etc)
This will be the case for both swaps but maybe a little easier with the termi due to the similarities with the two chassis. It is possible to have all accessories function on a termi swap. I’ve kept the fox dash, used the cobra cluster and have all accessories working, including the cruise.
The coyote will take more effort and money. From the factory, the coyote does not use a power steering pump and the a/c is mounted in a location that will not work in the fox. This means buying some kits to mount a pump and relocate the a/c.
More info here
https://www.americanmuscle.com/coyote-fox-swap-guide.html
All in all it comes down to your budget, power goals, and how ‘finished’ you want your car. You won’t be disappointed with the performance and feel of either engine. They both feel much more refined than the push rod 302.
Ask yourself these questions:
1). What’s your final power goal for the car?
Simple bolt ons will take a termi close to 500rwhp. Bolt on coyotes top out around 450 rwhp. The termi will have have instant torque while the coyote will be more of a high rpm power producer. If your looking for higher power levels, do the coyote swap and add a blower later as it will probably win the hp/dollar contest.
2). How much are you concerned with handling characteristics?
The termi adds ALOT of weight over the nose of the car. Handling will suffer. From what I’ve read, the coyote is pretty much the same weight as the 302. Something to note, sway bar modifications are required with the termi swap. The alt interferes with the drivers side mount bracket which must be cut off.
3). What accessories/features do you want to keep? (A\C, power steering, cruise etc)
This will be the case for both swaps but maybe a little easier with the termi due to the similarities with the two chassis. It is possible to have all accessories function on a termi swap. I’ve kept the fox dash, used the cobra cluster and have all accessories working, including the cruise.
The coyote will take more effort and money. From the factory, the coyote does not use a power steering pump and the a/c is mounted in a location that will not work in the fox. This means buying some kits to mount a pump and relocate the a/c.
More info here
https://www.americanmuscle.com/coyote-fox-swap-guide.html
All in all it comes down to your budget, power goals, and how ‘finished’ you want your car. You won’t be disappointed with the performance and feel of either engine. They both feel much more refined than the push rod 302.
I guess it depends on which coyote motor you get. An older F150 motor? Or an 15+ mustang coyote?
Stock f150 motor vs terminator? I'll take the supercharged 4.6L with a pulley, exhaust and tube and be happy with that whine
Stock f150 motor vs terminator? I'll take the supercharged 4.6L with a pulley, exhaust and tube and be happy with that whine
67coupe
Founding Member
Very true, which coyote engine used will affect immediate and future power levels.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy with the terminator swap. 460 rwhp and 490 rwtq are a combination of additive and dangerous in a fox!
I think 400HP is a nice comfy HP level in a fox. Youbstsrt going above that and things can go wrong fast.
I've driven s few 350-375HP combos and thought it was perfect for such a light car to have fun on the street
I've driven s few 350-375HP combos and thought it was perfect for such a light car to have fun on the street
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