Timing question(s)

[Pro-Hawk]

I got the crank pointer on aligned up with the TDC on the timing cover. The cam is lined up and the rotor is pointing to the 1# one plug wire. The car want start at all and back fires when I try to start it. The timing seems off 180 degrees but not sure how to put it back Do I just pull the distribitor and turn the crank around another turn

 

[140cilx]

well Hawk, based on what you described, it seems fine, you could remove the belt as many times as you want, rotate the cam in relation to the cam as many times as you want, spin the distributor as many times as you want, but once you put everything back on their marks, timing is right.

Easy way to check: Where is the spark showing on the crank pulley when you have a timing light on it?

Also, don't trust the plastic timing belt covers for setting the marks for the crank TDC or cam setting - tons of slop in them. I would use the string method of running a string between the crank center bolt, to the auxillary gear bolt center and see if the string goes right thru the TDC mark. Or better, pull the #1 plug and find TDC using a small dowell or screw driver - easy to do. Same w/ cam, use the string to go from the bolt center on the cam gear to the bolt center on the aux gear. The string should go right through the cam pointer.

However, it still doesn't sound like that's the problem, even off a tooth or two the car will start right up. Maybe all three (crank, cam, dis) are off just slightly giving you the equivalent of 6 teeth off or something.

Let us know.

 

[Pro-Hawk]

well Hawk, based on what you described, it seems fine, you could remove the belt as many times as you want, rotate the cam in relation to the cam as many times as you want, spin the distributor as many times as you want, but once you put everything back on their marks, timing is right.

Easy way to check: Where is the spark showing on the crank pulley when you have a timing light on it?

Also, don't trust the plastic timing belt covers for setting the marks for the crank TDC or cam setting - tons of slop in them. I would use the string method of running a string between the crank center bolt, to the auxillary gear bolt center and see if the string goes right thru the TDC mark. Or better, pull the #1 plug and find TDC using a small dowell or screw driver - easy to do. Same w/ cam, use the string to go from the bolt center on the cam gear to the bolt center on the aux gear. The string should go right through the cam pointer.

However, it still doesn't sound like that's the problem, even off a tooth or two the car will start right up. Maybe all three (crank, cam, dis) are off just slightly giving you the equivalent of 6 teeth off or something.

Let us know.

Thanks for the responce but I better tell this From the begining

I had the car running but running like crap. I killed the car to look under the hood for ideas on why when I noticed I had a few leaks. The valve cover was leaking and so was the high fuel pressure line. So I start messing with it untill I fixed these problems. I posted my leak questions plus how the car was running on the TF email listing and people came back telling me I was off a tooth on timing. I got my timing marks lined up and checked my rotor which was pinting away from the 1# plug wire. Keep in mind the car would run in the place but not real good. Then I aligned the marks again and pulled the distribitor. Making sure I had the number plug algned with the rotor I reinstalled the distribitor. Now the car want start at all and will back fire when I try to start it.

My question is this...Should I pull the distribitor back out and put it back the way I found it (180 out) ? This timing stuff really gets on my nerves exspecaily having three things to align up

Ray

 

[140cilx]

Once you get the hang of it, it's a breeze.

Easiest thing ever is using the timing light... but since you haven't mentioned that yet, is your rotor button pointing at or nearly at your firewall? Roughly it should that's where #1 should be when the dis is installed correctly.

You using a clymer or haynes manual to tell you your #1-4 plug wire locations on the distributor? I think I have a clymer - and it's labeled wrong, ran into that myself a long long time ago. Perhaps you have the plug wires on the distributor wrong? If I followed my Clymer manual, all it would do was backfire and no way would it start as it indicated #1 in I believe the #3 position. Anyway, all of the wires are off one position using the manual.

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Once you get the hang of it, it's a breeze.

Easiest thing ever is using the timing light... but since you haven't mentioned that yet, is your rotor button pointing at or nearly at your firewall? Roughly it should that's where #1 should be when the dis is installed correctly.

You using a clymer or haynes manual to tell you your #1-4 plug wire locations on the distributor? I think I have a clymer - and it's labeled wrong, ran into that myself a long long time ago. Perhaps you have the plug wires on the distributor wrong? If I followed my Clymer manual, all it would do was backfire and no way would it start as it indicated #1 in I believe the #3 position. Anyway, all of the wires are off one position using the manual.

Right now everything is pointing where it should be. The rotor is pointing almost straight at the fire wall also. The 1# plug was marked on the distbitor a while back when it was pulled during a tune up. So I know the markings on it are right. I read on SVOCA that everything could be aligned right two different ways. Like everything aligned right but the 1# piston would be on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. That is what I'm thinking is going on. So I'm going to double check the number one cyl by removing a the sprak plug.

 

[140cilx]

No reason to do that. The bottom end, or crank/pistons do the same thing every rotation, they go up and down. They don't care if it's a fire or exhaust stroke.

It's the cam gear/dis gear you have to have matched properly. #1 plug has to fire after the intake valve #1 cylinder has just closed and the piston is approaching top dead center.

This means, that you remove the belt from the cam, leave the crank and aux where they are and rotate it 180 degree's.

But is the cam gear arrow indicator pointed at the aux gear? If it is, then it's right, and the aux gear is right if the button is on 1.

And then check the rotor button is pointing dead on #1 on the distributor cap. And that the plug wires are on properly.

I'd come down there and get ya set up if I could.

TIMING LIGHT?

 

[140cilx]

My question is this...Should I pull the distribitor back out and put it back the way I found it (180 out) ? This timing stuff really gets on my nerves exspecaily having three things to align up

If this way makes more sense to you, since I don't seem to be making a dent , rotate just the cam gear 180 degree's, put the belt back on. If you do this right, and the problem was the cam was on the exhaust stroke while your dis was on the intake, then it will start. Leave the dis alone, you said you've got it pointed correctly, you don't want it all wangled weird pointed at the alternator and power steering.

 

[Pro-Hawk]

No reason to do that. The bottom end, or crank/pistons do the same thing every rotation, they go up and down. They don't care if it's a fire or exhaust stroke.

It's the cam gear/dis gear you have to have matched properly. #1 plug has to fire after the intake valve #1 cylinder has just closed and the piston is approaching top dead center.

This means, that you remove the belt from the cam, leave the crank and aux where they are and rotate it 180 degree's.

But is the cam gear arrow indicator pointed at the aux gear? If it is, then it's right, and the aux gear is right if the button is on 1.

And then check the rotor button is pointing dead on #1 on the distributor cap. And that the plug wires are on properly.

I'd come down there and get ya set up if I could.

TIMING LIGHT?

I'm so confused

Going by everything you've said here my car should start.

>crank pulley mark matched to the TDC mark on the cover.

>distibitor pointing to the fire wall and dead on the 1# plug wire.

>cam gear matched to the cover markings and pointed to the axl shaft.

All I get is some back fire / poping sounds but no one atempt to start.

rotate just the cam gear 180 degree's

If I do this wouldn't my cam gear marking point away from the ax shaft and leave me with only two markings lined up

Can Ray be tought...

 

[140cilx]

If I do this wouldn't my cam gear marking point away from the ax shaft and leave me with only two markings lined up

Yes, you are right, if all the marks on on, but you rotated it 180, it'd be 180 degree's off.

2 outta 3 won't get it, this demonstrates that just rotating the dis as you mentioned earlier won't get it either.

TIMING LIGHT?

You're dead sure you've got those wires on correctly?

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Yes, you are right, if all the marks on on, but you rotated it 180, it'd be 180 degree's off.

2 outta 3 won't get it, this demonstrates that just rotating the dis as you mentioned earlier won't get it either.

TIMING LIGHT?

You're dead sure you've got those wires on correctly?

How does a timing light help if the car want fire, run, turn over on its own power without the help of a starter I also just checked the spark plugs to make sure they are right and in the right order.

Hey how can you check to make sure you are getting fuel to the motor? I figured I would check the basics to make sure I didn't over look anything. Just to make sure stuff like that fuel hose pice with the can attached to it I replaced isn't cloged up. I'm also going to buy a few gallons of fuel to make sure its got plenty of fuel.

P.S. The car was running on its on power with two out of three marks lined up but running like crap. I was told I was off a tooth so I lined up the cam/crank marks and then reset the distribitor to point to 1# plug towards the fire wall. Now with all three marks lined up it want even fire let alone run on its on power Weird I know

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Here is a link to what I found on this that suggest you maybe on to something rotating the cam 180. Is states the cam moves 1/2 the speed of the crank. I'm still pretty lost on it but I wondering if they mean a full turn on a cam is really a half turn.


http://www.svoca.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5266&highlight=timing

 

[140cilx]

Hawk,
Yes, the bottom end must make 2 rotations for every 1 rotation of the cam and dis, that's why the crank gear is half the size (half the # of teeth) of the cam and aux gear. If it was 1:1 the cam would do an intake opening/closing, exhaust opening closing during 1 engine revolution. These are 4 stroke engines, piston goes up down up down for a complete gas in/exhaust out cycle. 2 rotations for every 1 cam and dis rotation.
Dunno if that explained anything or not.
A full turn on the cam w/ the belt in place will give you two complete bottom end rotations. A half turn on the cam is a 1 bottom end rotation.
The reason I keep saying timing light is because you indicated you had spark, but backfiring and not running. If it has spark you can crank the engine w/ the starter and see if the engine is sparking, and see where on the crank pulley it is firing. If it is firing TDC as it's supposed to, good. It should start. If it's not it could be the plug wires in the wrong position or the dis in the wrong position.
If it doesn't have any gas in it, well, we'll all kill you.
Check the schraeder valve w/ the key turned on in the ignition, hear the fuel pump prime at the back of the car, it should stop priming after 1-3 seconds and the system be pressurized. Then push the schraeder valve on the fuel line (at the firewall in front of the driver) if gas comes out, that means it has fuel, although you don't know the pressure.
I suppose you don't have a fuel gauge you could put on it? Cheapest temporary fuel guage is a .99 cent tire guage from a gas station. Put that on there, see if you are getting around 30-35 lbs w/ your tire guage. If so, you are good on the fuel pressure. *This is not good for a tire gauge and so I recommend a cheap one - but it works*.

 

[Stinger]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

There, I got that out of the way for ya 140cilx

Pro: The timing light helps because it tells you IF the ignition timing is right or not...and which way it is not right if that's the case (advanced or retarded). IF the timing is right and it's not starting, the cam is 180 off.

 

[Pro-Hawk]

I thank for your help but I'm officaly throwing in the towl I broke down and called my friend up dispite how much I've been trying to leave him out of this. He just got married and I didn't want to bug him with car issues. Anyways after me failing to understand what he was saying, he offered to help me out this weekend I know I'm a sad case but I've done everything in the book from day one to do this on my own. Now the car is in better hands than it should be

 

[140cilx]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

well I didn't want to say it, but oh yeah!

 

[Pro-Hawk]

 

[140cilx]

No sad faces, just show up at the reunion to redeem yourself, we'll have a blast, and all is well.

 

[Pro-Hawk]

No sad faces, just show up at the reunion to redeem yourself, we'll have a blast, and all is well.

I will do my best to be there and the first round of drinks will be on me

By the way what reunion are we talking about and where/when will it be held I hope its before January of 2005 since I plan to do somemore work to the SVO. If everything works out I'll have everything for stage II of my plans in January and ready to start working on her again.

 

[140cilx]

Ray,

Dude, you are kidding ...

October 15-17, Richmond, KY - DEF WORTH THE DRIVE! It's the automotive highlight of my year.

http://www.svoca.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5295

Thanks for the 1st round, nothing better than an ice cold DIET COKE and chewing the fat w/ svo buds!

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Ray,

Dude, you are kidding ...

October 15-17, Richmond, KY - DEF WORTH THE DRIVE! It's the automotive highlight of my year.

http://www.svoca.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5295

Thanks for the 1st round, nothing better than an ice cold DIET COKE and chewing the fat w/ svo buds!

Thats going to be a toughy...I'll be in school. I will just have to wait and see what I can do once I get settled in school. Also I got a car deal in October but I think the reunion would be way better since I've never been that fair past the Mississppi before

Ps. Do they have Dr Pepper out there are will I have to bring my own