Timing woes?

tacodog · May 18, 2010

So over the winter I added some bolt ons to the stang. Before winter it just had underdrive pullies, cai, deleted smog $ a/c. Now after the winter i added an explorer intake, 1" phenolic spacer, 1.72 crane/svo rockers, 30# injectors on fox rails with a kirban reg with a pro-m 75mm maf, 1 heat range colder plugs gap'd to .035, 190lph pump, and new fuel filter (in preparation for the 100hp dry kit thats not installed yet) o/r h-pipe, flowmaster 40's, stock tail pipes, msd cap/rotor/wires/coil, and finally deleted the egr (valve still on the car, just no longer on the intake, or transferring exhaust gas) because with the intake and spacer the egr tube was no-where near close to reaching.

My question is now that its running, it doesn't like any initial advance at all. Before i could get away with 14-16 degrees, and now i can't get anything more than base 10 or it idles like *$#@.

Also, due to the fuel system upgrades its a little piggish on the bottom, then once your about mid rpm range then things pick up, but the fox rails have no schrader valve, so i have no idea what the pressure is at (didn't notice until i got it on the car, and went to put my fuel press safety switch in...doh, have to go back to the sn95 rails now) so i don't know where to set the regulator. It came off a fox 5.0L h/c/i, so it probably won't suit my application where its set. I don't have an a/f gauge or anything like that yet, but would I be safe decreasing the fuel press in the rails until the car responds better, or is that a bad idea being that its blind.

Lastly, does anyone have these ford pedestal rockers. I tried shiming with the small .030 shims, but was almost not enough lifter preload, and the valve train was a little noisy...but not terrible. Then i tried no shims, but preload is almost too much, like a full turn, to a turn and 1/4.....Should i go back to shims? Being that the car is going to be my friday night test and tune mule, maybe being on the light side of preload won't harm me too much.

Thanks in advance

Aaron

BlackVert · May 18, 2010

you might try re-stabbing the distributor. maybe it went back in one tooth off or something?

also, having the egr installed allows you to be more agressive with the timing

tacodog · May 18, 2010

I managed to swap the intake without removing the dizzy, but the i didn't even think about the egr affecting the timing.....makes sense, you'd think i could get some timing out of it, at least 1-2 degrees though, its like flicking a switch, as soon as the car is off 10, its barely driveable

revhead347 · May 18, 2010

BlackVert said:
you might try re-stabbing the distributor. maybe it went back in one tooth off or something?

also, having the egr installed allows you to be more agressive with the timing

We've talked about this many times. The distributor can't be a tooth off. The lack of an EGR effects the octane rating of your fuel.

Kurt

tacodog · May 18, 2010

The car runs on 93, its an ethanol blend, but its the best in town....

HISSIN50 · May 18, 2010

How does it start to idle like crap? Does it idle too low if you advance the timing?

More timing advance should make it idle higher, not lower.

tacodog · May 18, 2010

it surges very badly and stalls anywhere more than 10 degrees, but keep it at 10 and its perfect. It just sucks, because it feels like im leaving extra power on the table. The car had so much better throttle responce with more advance, it just feels like im taking a step back when its at 10 deg. I now realize i can't be as aggresive without the egr now, but you'd think i could get some out of it. Ive pulled it into the garage tonight, and Im going to try and sort out my fuel issues, and see if i can improve anything, maybe even put the old sn95 rails back in for now so i can get the rest of the nitrous set up....

tacodog · May 18, 2010

Any other ideas or thoughts???

HISSIN50 · May 18, 2010

What is the idle speed at 10*? If you're too high above the commanded idle (which can happen if the idle is already set high and then one raises the timing advance), it can cause surging.

tacodog · May 18, 2010

i have messed around with idle speed, and have done a base idle reset, but somewhere along the lines, ive probably lost the original setting. Right now it idles around 650-750 RPM at 10 deg

toyman · May 18, 2010

tacodog said:
i have messed around with idle speed, and have done a base idle reset, but somewhere along the lines, ive probably lost the original setting. Right now it idles around 650-750 RPM at 10 deg

If by messing around with the idle speed I assume you are referring to adjusting the throttle screw/rod. Have you pulled any codes and have you measured the TPS voltage at idle. I'm wondering if you have inadvertently adjusted the idle voltage setting outside the PCM's expected voltage range for idle. If I've got this right the idle speed is right based on what the PCM is commanding. As timing is increased the idle would normally increase but the PCM will attempt to learn the new setting and bring the idle back into the commanded range (650-750). However, if the TPS sensor values are out of range the PCM doesn't know what to do in terms of adding fuel and air.

The one thing I've learned over the past 2 years playing with the AEM-EMS is there are often unintended consequences associated with altering various parameters being measured and acted on by the EMS.

tacodog · May 18, 2010

i did check tps voltage back when i did the base idle reset, and correct me if im wrong, its been a while, but its supposed to be .98-4V idle to w.o.t. But i have been changing the idle screw since the installation of the roller rockers, and i have not re-checked voltage ( that makes a lot of sense too ) Im just waiting for my kids to off to bed so i can start snooping around....its killing me. I have not checked codes yet, My father in law has a scanner, but i can't get it until tommorow. One thing i have noticed though, is there have been a couple of times im sure the C.E.L. should have come on and hasn't, as a matter of fact, i have never seen it yet. False sense of security, maybe the bulb in the instrument cluster's burnt out. Im not sure what kind of scanner the in-law has, but what should i look for, or i guess, what do you think would pop up if it was tps related...an undervoltage dtc, or something along those lines,

toyman · May 18, 2010

tacodog said:
i did check tps voltage back when i did the base idle reset, and correct me if im wrong, its been a while, but its supposed to be .98-4V idle to w.o.t. But i have been changing the idle screw since the installation of the roller rockers, and i have not re-checked voltage ( that makes a lot of sense too ) Im just waiting for my kids to off to bed so i can start snooping around....its killing me. I have not checked codes yet, My father in law has a scanner, but i can't get it until tommorow. One thing i have noticed though, is there have been a couple of times im sure the C.E.L. should have come on and hasn't, as a matter of fact, i have never seen it yet. False sense of security, maybe the bulb in the instrument cluster's burnt out. Im not sure what kind of scanner the in-law has, but what should i look for, or i guess, what do you think would pop up if it was tps related...an undervoltage dtc, or something along those lines,

TPS voltage at idle about 1v. There is an acceptable range from between .65v to 1.25v. The scanner needs to be OBD1 compliant and the test port is in the engine bay, passenger side between the strut tower and firewall. The OBD11 port under the dash is not functional and is there because the 3.8L V6 (OBD11) shares the same harness. If there is a problem with the TPS readings codes will probably be from 121-125. However, there are many other possible codes. I don't have the link but there is a write-up on retrieving codes without using a scanner. Should show up using the search function.

m0l0 · May 19, 2010

Based on the mods you are listing here is a list of things that come to my mind on your troubles, You installed some parts that will require to run at its best a tuning device, Tweeecer/QH, for example:

EGR: Even when you leave the valve plugged the logic on the computer is still on, this will cause you some pinging at cruising/WOT, the computer will not be able to know if there is flow from the exhaust, so the best thing to do even if you get a CEL its to disconnect the valve to turn off the logic on the EGR.

SMOG pump: useless this will probably trigger a CEL , but no performance or whatsoever problem , but can be disabled on the tuning just as the EGR.

Now, you have installed 1.7 rockers, this is a dead horse topic on forums but the injector timing table will in fact be affected, because of this your combustion may not be optimal, i know there is a lot of debate on this matter , but trust me i have seen the drivability being affected by this simple thing, also a tuning matter that could be fixed easy.

The explorer intake could play another roll on some lean at tip, by just adjusting the volume of the intake is easy fixable.

70mm Pro-m MAF and 30# injectors, even when you have the adjustable FPR, this is the most important part to tune on the computer, just go figure the stock maf its at least 10-15% rich by factory by my experience, installing aftermarket MAF and injectors need really tuning no matter how much MAF´s are "Calibrated for X injectors", this is just a reason to buy a tuning or go to a dyno.

Everything else its just not that important to the computer stuff, but i would really suggest you to gap the plugs againt to 0.54 i mean its something that could affect you, and besides its a really 20-30 mins stuff, and more easy since you eliminated all the crap that could give you a headache, If you are installing the shot re-gap them when its installed not some days/months before you see the shot installed.

Also since you are installing a respectable size shot you will need to have a tune, just for your engine/wallet sake.

I know that a (WideBand & Tweecer/QH) or Dyno Tune its another 500-700 bucks to your car , but really and take word from others after this its the best money you can spend on this point, take it as an insurance, also if you are all for performance and get every pony out of your combo you will be more than happy to have it correctly tuned.

Just my 0.02

BlackVert · May 19, 2010

revhead347 said:
We've talked about this many times. The distributor can't be a tooth off. The lack of an EGR effects the octane rating of your fuel.

Kurt

wow, i must have slept through all those times where this was mentioned. or maybe i just didn't notice the threads.

are you saying that it is not possible to put the distributor back in in such a way that it is off?

please elaborate on this, or point me to some of the many threads where this has been discussed. i'm here to learn.

also, how can the existence (or lack thereof) of the EGR change the octane rating of the fuel that is in the tank? it being there can allow one to use a lower octane fuel, but it seems to me it cannot increase or descrease the octane of your fuel.

m0l0 · May 19, 2010

BlackVert said:
wow, i must have slept through all those times where this was mentioned. or maybe i just didn't notice the threads.

are you saying that it is not possible to put the distributor back in in such a way that it is off?

please elaborate on this, or point me to some of the many threads where this has been discussed. i'm here to learn.

also, how can the existence (or lack thereof) of the EGR change the octane rating of the fuel that is in the tank? it being there can allow one to use a lower octane fuel, but it seems to me it cannot increase or descrease the octane of your fuel.

Not my business but as long as yo have the timing light and the TDC of #1 matches the Cable/Cap on #1 you cant have a "tooth off" , such case applies if you put the dist on the same spot without verify with a light, you can put the dist. even 180 degrees off , as long as you match the firing order and the TDC of the firing piston, the only way to have a dist bad is that the PIP output hits something and doesn't allow you to have the correct rotation to match the desired advance (10 base). its a simple thing.

Also not my business but the octane he refers to its the timing advance the EEC puts on the working EGR vs a non working/null EGR, i think he just typed it with another words. the octane on the fuel doesn't change just the advance you are running.

tacodog · May 19, 2010

m0l0 said:
Based on the mods you are listing here is a list of things that come to my mind on your troubles, You installed some parts that will require to run at its best a tuning device, Tweeecer/QH, for example:

EGR: Even when you leave the valve plugged the logic on the computer is still on, this will cause you some pinging at cruising/WOT, the computer will not be able to know if there is flow from the exhaust, so the best thing to do even if you get a CEL its to disconnect the valve to turn off the logic on the EGR.

SMOG pump: useless this will probably trigger a CEL , but no performance or whatsoever problem , but can be disabled on the tuning just as the EGR.

Now, you have installed 1.7 rockers, this is a dead horse topic on forums but the injector timing table will in fact be affected, because of this your combustion may not be optimal, i know there is a lot of debate on this matter , but trust me i have seen the drivability being affected by this simple thing, also a tuning matter that could be fixed easy.

The explorer intake could play another roll on some lean at tip, by just adjusting the volume of the intake is easy fixable.

70mm Pro-m MAF and 30# injectors, even when you have the adjustable FPR, this is the most important part to tune on the computer, just go figure the stock maf its at least 10-15% rich by factory by my experience, installing aftermarket MAF and injectors need really tuning no matter how much MAF´s are "Calibrated for X injectors", this is just a reason to buy a tuning or go to a dyno.

Everything else its just not that important to the computer stuff, but i would really suggest you to gap the plugs againt to 0.54 i mean its something that could affect you, and besides its a really 20-30 mins stuff, and more easy since you eliminated all the crap that could give you a headache, If you are installing the shot re-gap them when its installed not some days/months before you see the shot installed.

Also since you are installing a respectable size shot you will need to have a tune, just for your engine/wallet sake.

I know that a (WideBand & Tweecer/QH) or Dyno Tune its another 500-700 bucks to your car , but really and take word from others after this its the best money you can spend on this point, take it as an insurance, also if you are all for performance and get every pony out of your combo you will be more than happy to have it correctly tuned.

Just my 0.02

Last night i have a look around, and found that my idle adjustment was way out, from last time that I had it set and running well anyways. I found it at .67v, as where it was at .98 last time. I adjusted up the idle screw but couldn't fire the car to check how she was running....would have woken up the kids. Another thing i can't beleive i missed, was that the return spring mounted off the throttle linkage was missing, and actually the t.b. spring wasn't strong enough to return to the idle screw some of the time. I also noticed that the tps plug doesn't sit on the sensor right (sits sort of sideways, and doesn't completely plug in), due to some of the casting on the edlebrock intake adapter...something i will have to address when I remove the upper intake again. Earlier in the night i managed to try some blind fpr adjustment, just slightly decreasing fuel pressure, and going for a few jaunts, but no improvements.

One thing i have not noticed, much to my suprise i might add, is any presence of pinging. I knew that sooner or later its time now to go sit on a dyno and get the car tuned. Its hard for me to convince myself to spend the money, but now the car isn't any fun to drive anymore, so I will have to bite the bullet I guess.

The car is going to come back apart this coming weekend so i can put the old fuel rails back in the car and get my nitrous all completed and ready for when I can book a dyno tune. I will have to go buy a new fpr...but oh well. There is supposed to be a great guy in Calgary, only 20 mins from me at a place called techmotion who specializes in fords, so I should be in good hands. I have heard (not verified for sure yet) he uses diablo tuners, and will set up a 3 way toggle, so i can have one tune specifically for the nitrous. Is this an ok brand of tuner? It sounds like its in the $750 range for some dyno time and the tune's....Does that sound reasonable? It would be really nice to turn off the egr function and so on.

I appreciate all the help so far, thanks everyone. I was just about pulling out my hair over this damn thing..

Chythar · May 19, 2010

BlackVert said:
wow, i must have slept through all those times where this was mentioned. or maybe i just didn't notice the threads.

are you saying that it is not possible to put the distributor back in in such a way that it is off?

please elaborate on this, or point me to some of the many threads where this has been discussed. i'm here to learn.

also, how can the existence (or lack thereof) of the EGR change the octane rating of the fuel that is in the tank? it being there can allow one to use a lower octane fuel, but it seems to me it cannot increase or descrease the octane of your fuel.

Rather than rehash the "one tooth off" thing, here's a thread in our own forum from about a year ago that covers it:

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/782429-can-distributor-really-one-tooth-off-lets-discuss.html

m0l0 · May 19, 2010

tacodog said:
Last night i have a look around, and found that my idle adjustment was way out, from last time that I had it set and running well anyways. I found it at .67v, as where it was at .98 last time. I adjusted up the idle screw but couldn't fire the car to check how she was running....would have woken up the kids. Another thing i can't beleive i missed, was that the return spring mounted off the throttle linkage was missing, and actually the t.b. spring wasn't strong enough to return to the idle screw some of the time. I also noticed that the tps plug doesn't sit on the sensor right (sits sort of sideways, and doesn't completely plug in), due to some of the casting on the edlebrock intake adapter...something i will have to address when I remove the upper intake again. Earlier in the night i managed to try some blind fpr adjustment, just slightly decreasing fuel pressure, and going for a few jaunts, but no improvements.

One thing i have not noticed, much to my suprise i might add, is any presence of pinging. I knew that sooner or later its time now to go sit on a dyno and get the car tuned. Its hard for me to convince myself to spend the money, but now the car isn't any fun to drive anymore, so I will have to bite the bullet I guess.

The car is going to come back apart this coming weekend so i can put the old fuel rails back in the car and get my nitrous all completed and ready for when I can book a dyno tune. I will have to go buy a new fpr...but oh well. There is supposed to be a great guy in Calgary, only 20 mins from me at a place called techmotion who specializes in fords, so I should be in good hands. I have heard (not verified for sure yet) he uses diablo tuners, and will set up a 3 way toggle, so i can have one tune specifically for the nitrous. Is this an ok brand of tuner? It sounds like its in the $750 range for some dyno time and the tune's....Does that sound reasonable? It would be really nice to turn off the egr function and so on.

I appreciate all the help so far, thanks everyone. I was just about pulling out my hair over this damn thing..

Yes with or without tuner you need to have your basic mecanic stuff things like FP to stock values 39psi fpr disconnected from vacuum, 10 degrees of advance without SPOut plug , TPS in the .65-1.0 , and the idle screw , I dont quite remember if it was 1.5 or 2.5 turns open from closed position.

Its no surprise you are not pinging in any way since i am sure you are running rich.

You dont need to have a shop doing your tuning , with Tweecer/QH (WB) you can do your own tuning without paying any more to anyone, I agree its not a easy learning curve, and not reaaly cheap, but i think if you know the basics and work little steps you can tune your engine safely, Its always nice to have a good amount of reading before you start moving things around. There is a lot of information on this here on the tuning section.

revhead347 · May 19, 2010

BlackVert said:
also, how can the existence (or lack thereof) of the EGR change the octane rating of the fuel that is in the tank? it being there can allow one to use a lower octane fuel, but it seems to me it cannot increase or descrease the octane of your fuel.

Cynthar posted the link to the discussion of the distributor. This is one of many threads I remember where we droned on about this topic. So long as the rotor is pointing at the right node at the right time, it's going to be the same.

As for the EGR and the octane rating, I honestly don't know exactly how it works; only that it is excepted hot rodding dogma that the recirculation of exhaust gas has an effect on the octane of the fuel. It has something to do with how the two fluids react. Maybe someone else here knows exactly how it works.

Kurt

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