To E85 or not?

[FastDriver]

E85 from what I can see has a huge advantage over pump gas. Namely, E85 is rated at approximately 105 motor octane, which means that on my combination, I could probably max out or come close to maxing the turbo I'm putting on my engine. On pump gas, I predict that with a safe tune I'd make somewhere on the order of 700 rwhp - more or less depending on how aggressively I decide to have it tuned. On E85, I could probably max out the turbo (~1000rwhp) or come close to it, again depending on how aggressively I have it tuned. While gasoline is a no brainer, there is little data on failed engines running E85.

That's a big advantage. However, there are some inherent disadvantages to running E85:

- difficulty finding E85 filling stations (making long trips impractical without thoroughly researching E85 stations along the way. This is probably the biggest drawback to me, but we might be able to get around this using plug and play tunes so that I can stop at any gas station and run on 91 octane if E85 is unavailable.

- worse fuel mileage. While E85 uses ~30% more fuel that gas for a given distance or power level, it also currently costs less. This makes the difference in fuel economy measured in $/mile insignificant. However, as demand increases, I'm concerned that supply will not and the price of E85 will increase rapidly as a result. If that doesn't happen, there is still the matter of decreased range per tank of fuel.

- E85 is possibly (probably) more corrosive than gasoline, which would mean more wear and tear on fuel lines, pumps, injector seals, rings, cylinder walls, etc... Unfortunately, E85 is relatively new and there are no well documented long-term side-effects for combustion engines using it as a fuel, which leaves more speculation than experience or fact.

here are a couple of threads worth reading on the subject and accomplishments of E85.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427200
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

 

[MustangOwner]

Besides the fact that E85 is still kinda hard to find. To get your car tuned for E85 is expensive. I wanna say something like 700-800 bucks? Then plus the cost of upgrading your ENTIRE fuel assembly. E85 reguires 30% more fuel. Which means, bigger lines(front to back), bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, or maybe even two fuel pumps. That is an expensive project for a gain of only 20 rwhp. I've read my dyno comparisons and the most gain ive seen is 20rwhp on a '03 Terminator Cobra. I was gonna convert to E85 since i completely redid my engine but decided it was not worth it. But to each his own.

 

[302RollinHard]

I would also say that E85 won't be cheaper forever. it is currently subsidized by the gubment. When that ends, the cost will be similar.
Speaking of E85......
How's everybody like spending more money on milk, corn, and beef? Milk has gone up nearly 30 cents per gallon since the E85 craze in my area. It is also getting hard to find decent quality hamburger for less than 2.25/lb.

To the original poster....
Just buy race gas for those special times, and get a flip chip so you can choose tune.

 

[NKau]

Speaking of E85......
How's everybody like spending more money on milk, corn, and beef? Milk has gone up nearly 30 cents per gallon since the E85 craze in my area. It is also getting hard to find decent quality hamburger for less than 2.25/lb.

You have to take into account that grain farmers are getting hit quite a bit harder than many by increased fuel prices. Between increased cost of fuel for planting/harvesting/tillage/trucking and a heavy increase in fertilizer prices over the past few years (petroleum is used in the production of many types of fertilizer), there's a good reason you are seeing those price increases. Potash costs literally double what it did 2 years ago at our local co-op.

Remember, fuel prices are what began the ethanol boom we are experiencing in the first place. I don't believe you honestly think that farmers in this country should be absorbing that monetary beating for you? Not too many guys would be getting by very well right now raising $2.00/bu. corn. People seem to get really pissed about our government subsidizing ethanol, but would you rather be paying 2x the amount you currently are to eat instead?

 

[FastDriver]

Guys, I forgot to mention that I'm currently building the motor. I am going to run 160# injectors regardless of the fuel I use. My pump, and lines will all be replaced with a very high volume setup. Choosing to run E85 isn't going to cost me anything more than running C16. However, it will allow me to run 20+ lbs of boost which will make the difference between making around 700 rwhp and making around 1000 rwhp.

My combo is as follows:

Dart IE 302 .030 over bore
3.250" billet crank
Oliver billet rods
Custom CP high boost pistons set for 8.5:1 compression
AFR 205 heads
TFS-R w/ box upper
160# injectors
Precision GT42-76R turbo charger (rated @ 1200hp)

I realize that article said that they only got 20 hp out of running E85, but all they did, if I remember correctly was adjust timing. I think whoever wrote that article didn't do his research. He should've turned up the boost. Read the articles I posted above and you'll see a V8 pushing over 30psi on E85, and a supra pushing something like 24psi on E85 without any additives.

Chris

 

[NKau]

A couple points about E85 pirated from popularhotrodding.com :



1) E100 (100% ethanol)can be run in motors with a compression ratio as high as 19.5:1. Really, 19.5! Determining the upper compression limits of E85 when used in a purpose built motor should be of interest to readers.

2. E85 has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.

3. E85 has an octane of 105!!!

4. E85 (ethanol) burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.

5. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn efficiently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.

6. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonation control. With this characteristic, I think having a longer rod to stroke ratio, which will make the piston stall somewhat longer at TDC, will help.


Car Craft had a really good article on E-85 a couple months ago that I can't find now. I gathered that you can do some amazing things with an engine purpose built/tuned for ethanol.

Kind of neat considering that E-85 is basically "pump gas", and is becoming more available across the country.

 

[enyawix]

At the 10:1 air fuel E85 and 9:1 E100 ethanol likes to be mixed at, you must burn much more fuel to make the same power. Just something to think about.

 

[brynfiv]

Wear!!!!

Allright, let me bring in a big issue not thought about here. 1st of all, how long do you plan on your engine lasting? The issue here is just like gasohol from the 80's. E-85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas for a reason. Alcohol doesen't lubricate cylinders. 15% gas is not gonna do it properly either. Just like a diesel engine has a longer lifespan than a gasoline engine, an E-85 engine is gonna have a shorter one.

 

[FastDriver]

yeah, wear is a big concern to me. I wish there was a lot more experience with E85 and less speculation. Though, I think the only additional wear would be in the rings, pistons and cylinder walls, making a rebuild pretty cheap. This is going to be a high-maintanence motor regardless. Your concerns will be especially well-founded in long-term road vehicle engines.

Nkau, thanks for the input. I'm quite sure I would make considerably more power with the E85.

Does that one advantage outweigh the risks?

Who has some long-term experience with the stuff?

 

[MustangOwner]

Just get a diablo flip chip, 93 octane on one side and race gas on the other side. Then you can change between 1000hp and 700hp on a flip of a switch.

 

[302RollinHard]

Remember, fuel prices are what began the ethanol boom we are experiencing in the first place. I don't believe you honestly think that farmers in this country should be absorbing that monetary beating for you? Not too many guys would be getting by very well right now raising $2.00/bu. corn. People seem to get really pissed about our government subsidizing ethanol, but would you rather be paying 2x the amount you currently are to eat instead?

nevermind........

 

[enyawix]

You have to take into account that grain farmers are getting hit quite a bit harder than many by increased fuel prices. Between increased cost of fuel for planting/harvesting/tillage/trucking and a heavy increase in fertilizer prices over the past few years (petroleum is used in the production of many types of fertilizer), there's a good reason you are seeing those price increases. Potash costs literally double what it did 2 years ago at our local co-op.

Remember, fuel prices are what began the ethanol boom we are experiencing in the first place. I don't believe you honestly think that farmers in this country should be absorbing that monetary beating for you? Not too many guys would be getting by very well right now raising $2.00/bu. corn. People seem to get really pissed about our government subsidizing ethanol, but would you rather be paying 2x the amount you currently are to eat instead?

Do not turn to cheep scare tactics!

We toss out more food and energy than we ever use. We will not pay 2x for food. The government will step in first

 

[393Bird]

I have plans to switch to E85 this Winter. That has been my end plan for over a year now. I am running a Vortech YSi in a carbed blow through setup, and as soon as every thing is ready, will up the boost from 12 psi, to 20+. This could not be done with my setup, even if I was using race gas, but with the extra cooling effects of E85 when is atomizes in the carb, I will be able to run more boost with E85.

I had planed on converting this Summer, but will be driving it to NMRA in Bowling Green Ky in October, and there is still no E85 available there.

Here is a shot of the engine.

 

[tkareno]

nice looking engine

 

[FastDriver]

I have plans to switch to E85 this Winter. That has been my end plan for over a year now. I am running a Vortech YSi in a carbed blow through setup, and as soon as every thing is ready, will up the boost from 12 psi, to 20+. This could not be done with my setup, even if I was using race gas, but with the extra cooling effects of E85 when is atomizes in the carb, I will be able to run more boost with E85.

I had planed on converting this Summer, but will be driving it to NMRA in Bowling Green Ky in October, and there is still no E85 available there.

Here is a shot of the engine.

Why wouldn't you be able to run that amount of boost on race gas? C16 has a higher motor octane than E85. Theoretically, you should be able to get more aggressive on a tune with race gas than E85. I understand that there is also E100 which has an octane of around 120, and this might be even better than race gas.

 

[393Bird]

Why wouldn't you be able to run that amount of boost on race gas? C16 has a higher motor octane than E85. Theoretically, you should be able to get more aggressive on a tune with race gas than E85. I understand that there is also E100 which has an octane of around 120, and this might be even better than race gas.

The agvantage that E85 has, is it drops the intake temp down low enough to frost the carb enclosure. With no intercooler, this is a huge advantage. The octane is only 105, but with the extra cooling in carbed applications, it allows for much more agressive timing than even higher octane, plus it is at the local gas stations for less than 87 octane.

For what they make E85 for, it is a wash with the less miles per gal to lower price, but for high compression or supercharged engines, it is some great stuff, especially in carbed applications where the fuel is atomized away from the combustion chambers, and it really COOLS the intake air.

 

[enyawix]

393Bird you are the guy I want to race the most, so get ready. My new engine will be ready soon.

 

[stylin99]

Hey guys, if you want to see Mustangs converted to E85 with a proven track record of success, go here: www.e85mustangs.com

I converted mine over 1 year ago, and have had NO problems to date with corrosion, performance, or engine death. Only minimal parts were changed. Still running stock fuel rails, lines and filter!

I'm now pushing 471 rwhp (SAE) through a stock 2v 4.6 engine and a Vortech supercharger. This stuff is amazing in terms of detonation suppression. It's basically race gas at a 1/3rd of the cost. Finding a station is sometimes difficult here on the east coast, but it should be growing more as time progresses.

If you missed the story, my '99 GT made the cover of Mustang Enthusiast last month about the conversion. You can read the whole article here if you're really serious about doing the switchover:
www.rearseatdelete.com/MEcover/MEcover1.html

 

[enyawix]

Allright, let me bring in a big issue not thought about here. 1st of all, how long do you plan on your engine lasting? The issue here is just like gasohol from the 80's. E-85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas for a reason. Alcohol doesen't lubricate cylinders. 15% gas is not gonna do it properly either. Just like a diesel engine has a longer lifespan than a gasoline engine, an E-85 engine is gonna have a shorter one.

Could a small amount of oil be added to E100 ethanol to lubricate cylinders? What would this do to oxygen sensors?


Before you say it, I know this is a old thread. I posted in the first round.

 

[93 LX]

Hmm I hear this cons against a pure ethanol powered engine. Lets remember a few facts abotu it that seem to be getting over looked. Current gas engines need a 14 to 1 air to fuel ratio, alcohol needs 7 to 1, you are correct that you need 2 times as much fuel to run however you do not need to have 4 inch fuel lines you just need to make sure you have a good fuel pump and larger injectors to amke up for the difference. In carbed applications you just need to jet up your carb to make up for the difference. Fuel lines should be replaced since alcohol tends to corrode standard metal lines and will break down rubber lines.

My neighbor has a 57 Chevy with a 502, 6-71 roots blower and runs 100% alcohol. The engine makes 650 HPs and its a weekend car however the engine never overheats and at 3000 miles the oil looks like it did when it came out of the bottle. His stainless exhaust is also very, very clean.

Another note: F1 cars have been using it for many years and they get plenty of power so that shouldn't be an issue. Gas does have more energy potentail then alcohol but diesel has even more potential. All these come at a cost, more pollutants, more carbon deposits and more dependance on imported oil, Oh another myth about oil, the US #1 oil imported is not any arab country, it's a counrty right here in north america so once again the media skews the truth.

One more item, Henry Ford never had in mind to run the Model T on gas, he designed the engine for alcohol, remember he was trying to sell the car to the masses and most of the masses were farmers. He could never see the reason why cars ran on gas anyway. Maybe we should revist this and get the hell off OIL! If Barzil cn make the switch in 10 years how long do you think it would take the US, really?

Ok off my soap box! ;o)