Drivetrain Tr3650 swap worth it? Or sn95 t5?

[Smurfstang88]

So i have been running a 4cyl t5 for about 2 years and it blew up the other day and i am having a really hard time finding another trans.. im currently in a tough spot my timing chain on my ram5.7 jumped and the day after tearing into the motor, my trans in my fox blew up.. anyways im trying to look for a decent deal on a v8 t5 but have yet to find one even though i have a guy who has a parts yard full of foxs all the time he doesnt even have one right now. So im wondering since i might have found a good deal on a 3650 on ebay if it would be tons of work, and money on other parts to make it work, wondering if they are good or even worth it.. but I also have a line on a 94 t5 with correct bellhousing apparently for the fox for 450$ but i dont know what condition its in for sure, as the car it came out of wasnt running. Im wondering if that would be a fair price for a gamble essentially or if i should wait to find a fox v8 t5 any advice appreciated..

 

[Hoytster]

Unfortunately it would take some work and some money. The 3650 has an integral bellhousing that is setup for the modular engine so you would have to purchase an adapter plate to get it to mate to a SBF. The 3650 also has an electronic speedo so you would have to convert that to be able to drive your mechanical speedo in your fox. The 3650 is a good trans and can be built to handle some power, but I wouldn't go through the effort of converting it in your situation.

About that 94/95 trans, that is also NOT a direct swap. The 94/95 T5 has a 5/8" longer input shaft then the fox T5. Best way to get a 94/95 trans to work is to change the bearing retainer and input shaft out to the fox style, and run the fox T5 bellhousing. You could also run the 94/95 T5 as is and shorten your stock driveshaft and deal with all the other issues that come with the trans being 5/8" further back, but that's more money, work, and a hack job IMO.

 

[Smurfstang88]

Unfortunately it would take some work and some money. The 3650 has an integral bellhousing that is setup for the modular engine so you would have to purchase an adapter plate to get it to mate to a SBF. The 3650 also has an electronic speedo so you would have to convert that to be able to drive your mechanical speedo in your fox. The 3650 is a good trans and can be built to handle some power, but I wouldn't go through the effort of converting it in your situation.

About that 94/95 trans, that is also NOT a direct swap. The 94/95 T5 has a 5/8" longer input shaft then the fox T5. Best way to get a 94/95 trans to work is to change the bearing retainer and input shaft out to the fox style, and run the fox T5 bellhousing. You could also run the 94/95 T5 as is and shorten your stock driveshaft and deal with all the other issues that come with the trans being 5/8" further back, but that's more money, work, and a hack job IMO.

Ok thats pretty much all I figured, is it hard to find that adapter plate? I tried a quick search and theres not much info.. not too worried about the speedo mine dont work anyways but would i also need a new driveshaft for that too? As for the 94 t5 would it be as simple as to buy a new fox v8 t5 input shaft/bearing retainer online? Because i guess the 4cyl one is smaller in diameter as i understand it.. how difficult of a job would that be? Also i agree with you as for that being the right way to do it, i dont want a hack job especially when it requires more work
(Edit: never mind I believe i found an adapter plate, didn’t expect it to cost an arm and both legs, that is out of the question now)

 

[Hoytster]

Only adapter I know of it the Hanlon Motorsports adapter $459.95. https://www.hanlonmotorsports.com/product/hms-tr-3650-adapter-plate/

I'm not sure about the driveshaft with the tr3650 as most of my experience with that has been the modular/coyote, but I would hazard a guess and say you would need a new driveshaft. I believe the tr3650 sits back like the 95/95 trans.

Correct, you would have to source the retainer and input shaft either online. I see them on ebay quite often. It's not terribly hard to swap everything out if you are mechanically inclined. Here's a video to give you an idea:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74qH-HNhRw

 

[Smurfstang88]

Thats the only one i was able to find as well, out of my price range currently.. and thank you for the video it’s helpful, seems like a job i could do. Parts seem a bit expensive right now for t5s im kinda shocked, about 150 for the input shaft, bearing retainer and new bearing.. i wonder what else while im at it could I reasonably do or if anything is worth doing while i have it out of the car(keep in mind i dont know the condition of the trans until it goes in my car, i dont wanna go too crazy w it).. also i was wondering would the clutch thats in my t5 currently swap right over, the previous owner claimed it is a new clutch and i only have put like 2k miles on it.. and also im assuming my 4cyl bellhousing is the same as the fox v8 one?

 

[90sickfox]

You could just do a 94/95 bellhousing and be fine with the s95 t5. I've never had to shorten a driveshaft to make it work. There's enough room on the slip yoke to make up for the extra length. Take some emry cloth or fine scuff pad and clean up the yoke where the seal will ride.

The shifter will move back in the tunnel. Only minor adjustments needed to get the shift boot to sit correctly. Some clearancing may be needed. Cheap and easy.

No one mentioned the clutch difference with the 3650. The sn95 will use your same clutch.

The pilot bearing will need to change going from 4 banger to v8 t5. 4 bangers used a s202 bearing in the back of the crank from an old ranger. The sn95 needs the standard v8 t5 pilot bearing installed.

My 4 banger t5 has lasted more than 10 years behind some pretty potent engines. Granted I never speed shift. I coughed up big money ( to me ) for a built tko600 from Hanlon. Couldn't be happier.

 

[Hoytster]

Yeah, I didn't mention anything more about the 3650 because I figured the cost of the adapter alone would be enough to deter him. I guess I should have been a little more clear I was trying to steer him away.

I personally haven't had luck putting a 94/95 trans in a fox, without changing the input shaft and retainer, and have enough clearance on the slip yoke to be comfortable. But I only tried once so maybe that's just my experience. I've always changed them after that.

 

[90sickfox]

Yeah, I didn't mention anything more about the 3650 because I figured the cost of the adapter alone would be enough to deter him. I guess I should have been a little more clear I was trying to steer him away.

I personally haven't had luck putting a 94/95 trans in a fox, without changing the input shaft and retainer, and have enough clearance on the slip yoke to be comfortable. But I only tried once so maybe that's just my experience. I've always changed them after that.

I tried to swap inputs on a 94/95 and ran into issues on a client's car. The pocket bearing was different. Not sure of it was a part issue or production date / type issue. After that I always used 94/95 v8 bellhousing. Easier swap...less room for error. The tail seal is pushed back on the slip yoke but there should be some room before it touches the U joint flange. These fox body production tolerances were pretty sloppy in the 80s. All of them are different to some degree. Different k members can also move the engine / trans combo back towards the firewall reducing space.

 

[Hoytster]

@90sickfox I'm always amazed at how big the tolerances on these cars are. I remember putting a cage in my E30 BMW a couple years ago while I had one of my fox's stripped down next to it, and I finally realized why people that owned or worked on those BMW's new back in the 80's always said they were build better. There isn't much, if any different in build quality nowadays.

 

[Smurfstang88]

well then i guess i just have some deciding to do.. im wondering about the interior, do you have to hack up your console much, does anyone have any pics of theirs once done? Also the guy i know also has a 4cyl trans for 200 but i have 355s and my car is carbed, i only get like 15mpg max even if i take it easy.. 1st gear is non existent and in 5th at 60 im at like 2400rpm, so i dont think i want another 4banger t5.. is there anything different about the 94/95 t5s as far as build quality,durability/gear ratios?

 

[Smurfstang88]

Also i noticed when i did my rear lca’s like 6months ago i have oil sprayed everywhere around the driveshaft where it connects to the diff, so im assuming thats the pinion seal? I have basically no experience with transmissions or diffs, so im wondering if thats a job i can do (i have read it’s difficult and you need special tools but i haven't looked into that for a while) and if its something i could/should do while the trans and all that is out, thoughts on that would also be appreciated..

 

[90sickfox]

The pinion seal is only hard because of the godawful torque setting on that thing. You'll need a tool to hold the flange and a long breaker bar to get the nut loose....and to tighten it back up enough to crush a new crush washer.

I got 26mpg with an edelbrock 650 carb. and 3.73 gears on a 306. Most people with carbs have them way to rich at cruise. ( not saying that's your case ). Some cars need more than others. I tuned mine with the help of a stoich gauge.

The 94/95 transmissions are stronger....they are stronger behind the 3.8 too.

The funny thing is, in my personal experiences, the 4 banger t5 holds up better than all of them. I've killed all of them except my 4 banger t5. When I pulled it from behind my 331 turbo set up it still shifted and worked flawlessly.

 

[Smurfstang88]

Hmm Ill have to look into that then.. and i have the edlebrock 650 avs2 and I’d kill to get even 20 mpg.. i never tried to change the springs out, but the only way i have seen it done is to check with a vacuum gauge and swap springs around until you get a certain pressure, also it has 3 settings on the throttle linkage and i have it on the setting where it consumes less gas but even then i dont notice an mpg difference, only a huge loss of power at high rpms, so i don't have it there anymore.. more info as to improving the mpg would be amazing as I've made a post about it before and never was able to solve anything.. if im only getting 15mpg i might as well swap to a holley because at least id get more performance..

My 4cyl t5 had a grind into 3rd/4th until hot, and even then if I shifted too quick, it would grind ever since ive owned it so i cant say anything about the longevity in my case..

 

[90sickfox]

The cheap stoich gauge hooked up to a new o2 sensor will help. A real wide band set up would work even better. My edelbrock had metering rods you had to swap out to control flow.

They look like this...

I'm not sure of the size I had to use. My carb also had a power valve linkage at the top that I had to adjust so it would drop fuel at initial punch of the happy pedal.

I was very happy with that carb. Kept it on the car for 5 or 6 years and sold it to a guy that used it for a few more. I never hooked the electronic choke up and never had an issue starting it. Two taps of the pedal and turn the key.

 

[KRUISR]

I just did an auto to manual swap in June using a V6 T5 from a '96 into my 90 GT. I used a bellhousing/clutch fork from a 95 5.0 and kept the SN input shaft and bearing retainer. I had to shorten my driveshaft an inch. Flywheel and clutch part numbers are the same for Foxes and 94/95's. The internals of the V6 T5's are essentially the same as a 89-93 V8 T5. My trans is a 1352-238 version.

I had to do the usual cuts to the front of the shifter opening (like all auto to T5 conversions need to do) and I trimmed a slight bit off the back side (shift tower is further back than stock Fox T5) for a little more clearance to remove shifter from above.

I used my stock Fox double hump trans cross member, I removed the SN trans mount extension plate and used Fox trans mount. If trans from a 94-98 V6 is used, speedo cable will work like stock, but trans has a 8 tooth driven gear in the trans, so appropriate speedo gear is needed.

If your car was a 4 cyl T5 and has the factory raised floor pan section around the shifter, possibly no trimming is needed. I did not add the raised floor section. I did not have to modify my interior console or shifter boot to accommodate the swap.

but I also have a line on a 94 t5 with correct bellhousing apparently for the fox

The way to tell the difference between Fox and SN bellhousing is the SN's have the engine displacement cast into them.

 

[Smurfstang88]

Thank you very much for that info on the metering rods I completely forgot about those.. im going to look into getting a gauge soon then.. also i have the electric choke and it seems to work when i set it up, but it seems like the next week it no longer works as it should, it is crap IMO but when its cold outside it seems to need it..

 

[Smurfstang88]

I just did an auto to manual swap in June using a V6 T5 from a '96 into my 90 GT. I used a bellhousing/clutch fork from a 95 5.0 and kept the SN input shaft and bearing retainer. I had to shorten my driveshaft an inch. Flywheel and clutch part numbers are the same for Foxes and 94/95's. The internals of the V6 T5's are essentially the same as a 89-93 V8 T5. My trans is a 1352-238 version.

I had to do the usual cuts to the front of the shifter opening (like all auto to T5 conversions need to do) and I trimmed a slight bit off the back side (shift tower is further back than stock Fox T5) for a little more clearance to remove shifter from above.

I used my stock Fox double hump trans cross member, I removed the SN trans mount extension plate and used Fox trans mount. If trans from a 94-98 V6 is used, speedo cable will work like stock, but trans has a 8 tooth driven gear in the trans, so appropriate speedo gear is needed.

If your car was a 4 cyl T5 and has the factory raised floor pan section around the shifter, possibly no trimming is needed. I did not add the raised floor section. I did not have to modify my interior console or shifter boot to accommodate the swap.



The way to tell the difference between Fox and SN bellhousing is the SN's have the engine displacement cast into them.

Just wondering how can i tell if its a t5 from the v6 or v8 and is it true that the gears in the v8 one has lower gears? Also im kind of confused about the driveshaft, does it need to be shortened or does it not? Only because i seem to see 2 different answers, and if it would need to be shortened then i would think it would be in fact maybe less work/ even less money to just change the input shaft to the fox one and then use the fox bellhousing and then its done sorta more correctly? Also indeed my car was a factory 4cyl t5..

I thank you all for your patience and input on this

 

[KRUISR]

The transmission tag is how you can tell (so long as its there and someone hasn't changed it - to deceive folks).



Second row on the tag starts with the number you are interested in. In the above case it is 13 52 238. The 238 is the number you need. There are a number of sites that translate what the transmission originally came as. In this case, 238 is for 94-98 V6 (this year I have pulled a T5 from a 95, 96 and a 98 - all were 1352-238)

A couple sites I have used for identification... (just search T5 transmission identification)

BritishV8: the site for enthusiasts of modified British sports cars

About classic British sports cars, performance mods, V8 engine swaps, MGB V8 conversions, et cetera

www.britishv8.org

Identifying and Assembling a T5 5 Speed

I needed to shorten my driveshaft only because I used a 94/95 bellhousing and input shaft in a foxbody. If you used a foxbody bellhousing and input shaft (5.0, not 4 cyl) you could use a stock length driveshaft. Not sure what pricing around your area is like, but around here fox 5.0 bellhousings have become gold and cost a ton. I picked up a 95 GT bellhousing with clutch fork and engine plate for $50. Similar items for a foxbody are $200-400. My V6 trans already had the correct input shaft for the 95 bellhousing so I only then needed a flywheel, clutch and clutch cable (which are the same for fox and SN95).

As far as gears in trans difference between fox 5.0 and 94-98 V6. From the above sites...( gear ratios are listed as reverse, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

1352-199

Ford 1990 Mustang 5.0L V8 WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

1352-204

Ford Mustang 5.0L V8 WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

1352-208

Ford 1992 5.0L Mustang WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

1352-218

Ford 1993 MY GT V8 5.0 WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

1352-238

Ford Mustang 3.8 V6 WC

V

3.15

3.35

1.93

1.29

1.00

0.72

1352-242

Ford 1994 Mustang Cobra 5.0 V8 WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

1352-246

Ford 1994 Mustang 5.0 V8 WC

Y

3.15

3.35

1.99

1.33

1.00

0.68

Hope it helps.

 

[Smurfstang88]

Appreciate the info very informative, just still a bit confused about the driveshaft thing. I understand you are saying you had to shorten the driveshaft because you used a 95 bellhousing and input shaft thus making it sit too far back, but i think it was 90sickfox that mentioned he has always been able to fit it with that same setup with enough room due to the slip yolk taking up the extra 5/8” or so.. so just dont quite get why its possible for it to fit but also possible for it to not fit so im assuming its just due to sloppy production tolerances aforementioned? Anyways, my 4cyl bellhousing is the same as the 5.0 bellhousing if im understanding correctly so id just need to worry about finding an input shaft/retainer and do it that way.. or could try to see if it will fit first with the 94 housing without trying anything.. i just cant believe that fox 5.0 t5s are so impossible to find so i wouldnt need to worry about it..

 

[KRUISR]

i just cant believe that fox 5.0 t5s are so impossible to find so i wouldnt need to worry about it..

Not impossible to find, but at least around here expensive, people are asking $500-800 for an as-is WC tranny, no bellhousing and you get to guess/hope if the internals are any good. I pulled used T5 from 94-98 V6 for $200. Same unknown about internals, just a whole bunch cheaper.

Theoretically driveshaft shouldn't need to be shortened, but different rear control arms position rear forward or back, different motor mounts position motor and tranny forward or back and different front k-member adjustments will move things forward or back. All can effect whether driveshaft has enough clearance. On mine, if I pushed the trans yoke all the way in and fiddled with the rear, I probably could have slipped it in, but I would be worried about no movement with suspension movement. When I measured u-joint to u-joint with a spare yoke I had I measured 45.25". Stock driveshaft is 45.5". So I just went ahead and shortened driveshaft and put new u-joints while I was at it.

Anyways, my 4cyl bellhousing is the same as the 5.0 bellhousing if im understanding correctly

Sort of. 4 cyl bellhousing is same depth as a 5.0 bellhousing for the 5.0 input shaft, but engine bolt pattern is different. The 3.8 V6 bellhousing will bolt up to the 5.0, but takes a different flywheel (164 vs 157) so there are starter issues. You will want a 5.0 bellhousing to attach a V8 to a T5.