Turbo Flex Fuel Tuning

Stevenmverrill

5 Year Member
Oct 24, 2017
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So I plan to turbo my sn 95 this winter. I have some tuning questions, and some ideas:

This is all what I have come up with as a work around to not running a stand alone, in part $, in other part know I will never spend the time to reinvent a rounder wheel then the computer geeks at Ford did in 94.

First is run a msd box and a boost retard. Seams straight forward would love input on what you got and what you love/hate. (I would prefer analog)

Next is using 60ish# injectors, a newer maf/iat in +2.5" plumbing and engineering an adjustable air limiter. Something very analog yet to the point, like the idle air adjustment screw...

Next is installing a wide band. Question: all the wide bands I can find read in a:f. I don't understand how that works? Working off of a:f implies an assumed unknown. Especially when trying to run e50-85. Anyone know of a gauge that reads out in lambida?

In my little hamster wheel I call a brain the idea is: The computer will play with fuel trims and get things close enough for me, and I play with the maf adjustment to find a good a:f for when it's in closed loop.

Would think once I get the hang of it, running various fuels would be as simple as turn maf. screw 3 turns to the left, and add 1/2 a degree/1psi or whatever it proves to be..

Also new to tuning with out a knock sensor. Do you just keep it what you think is safe and below, or crank it up until it sounds like an overheat lawnmower, and then back it out a splash?

Thanks for any input!
 
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No. Don't bother trying.

Buy an Anderson pms and tune the stock ecu.

The other way is to run larger injectors with matching maf and use an FMU to up the fuel pressure with boost.

Standalone isn't that expensive if you know what to buy and if you have to pass a visual inspection
 
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No. Don't bother trying.

Buy an Anderson pms and tune the stock ecu.

The other way is to run larger injectors with matching maf and use an FMU to up the fuel pressure with boost.

Standalone isn't that expensive if you know what to buy and if you have to pass a visual inspection

Thanks.

"Fmu"?

I like the pms from what I have seen. Can't find one though. Saw 1 used on ebay for 700. That said if I can't get in to a pms for cheep, any one use the megasquirt computer ? Or what other options exist.

Also how do those computers know boos? Do you just use load or add a map?
 
Thanks.

"Fmu"?

I like the pms from what I have seen. Can't find one though. Saw 1 used on ebay for 700. That said if I can't get in to a pms for cheep, any one use the megasquirt computer ? Or what other options exist.

Also how do those computers know boos? Do you just use load or add a map?
FMU is a fuel management unit it raises fuel pressure under boost its a bandaid.

Look at my signature (turn the phone sideways) I run the megasquirt help and tech threads. Read thru the help thread
 
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Moates Quarterhorse is about 1/3 the cost of the discontinued Anderson PMS (when it was last around it retailed for $1099). It uses a laptop instead of dedicated tuning screen, but you can adjust almost every parameter available. About 1000 times easier than what you're describing. You can also load multiple tunes (e85 tune, gas tune for example) and switch between them after installing an optional external switch.

FMU is an outdated concept in 2017. Tune the car for increased fuel at boost. Use larger injectors.

You can adjust the function of the IAC within the tune, it's completely in your control.

If you're running the stock block, you won't need 60's. 42's will get you to about the top-end of what the block can handle running gas. If you're running e85 then 60's might not be big enough. e85's again pointless on a stock block. You can easily make the full power the block can handle using gas.

Just because 'Mighty Car Mods' dumps e85 into every piece of rice-junk they build doesn't mean it's actually a good idea. It's just a trick to squeeze another 10% out of an under-powered low-displacement pile of scrap. You won't have that problem with a 5.0HO as gasoline will easily get you to the block-maximum of around 450-500hp at relatively low boost.

If you're looking to get an aftermarket block that's a different story, and a whole different class of build.

MSD box with boost retard - also unnecessary but won't hurt anything. Tune the car to retard timing at boost. With the ~10-12psi you can run before the stock block gives way, the MSD is overkill. A nice Accel TFI coil and down-gapping your plugs to 28 will be more than enough to eliminate spark blow-out.

The 95 doesn't have a knock sensor. Tuning until it detonates with a turbo is a HORRIBLE idea. Extra-safe timing and extra fuel, back off from there.

Innovate LC-2 "LM Programmer" software allows you to select Lambda or AFR output. There's nothing challenging about this. You can fully program the output curve (voltage vs AFR) and have your gauge show whatever you want.

If I could offer my humble opinion - you're looking to do something very simple that's been done a million times before. And the way you're looking to approach it is unusual. If that's what makes you happy, then awesome. But you're prone to spending a lot more money and ending up with poor results if you go about things the way you've planned. Study up on tuning your car (check the date of posts that you're reading), or pay someone to do it. The easy way is often the best way, and everything you describe can be easily accomplished with inexpensive off-the-shelf parts.

Moates Quarterhorse with Binary Editor. An off-the-shelf turbo kit of your choosing and price range. Injectors, a nice PRO-M MAF, an Accel Super-Coil, a Walbro 255lph pump. Add a nice manual boost controller. That's all you need. You'll be at block-splitting horsepower that's streetable and can pass emissions in no time (and for reasonable $).

- Mechanical engineer working in IT the last 25 years running Moates Quarterhorse self-tuned with Binary Editor and using an Innovate LC-2 with a Boost Brothers turbo kit since 2009.
 
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Moates Quarterhorse is about 1/3 the cost of the discontinued Anderson PMS (when it was last around it retailed for $1099). It uses a laptop instead of dedicated tuning screen, but you can adjust almost every parameter available. About 1000 times easier than what you're describing. You can also load multiple tunes (e85 tune, gas tune for example) and switch between them after installing an optional external switch.

FMU is an outdated concept in 2017. Tune the car for increased fuel at boost. Use larger injectors.

You can adjust the function of the IAC within the tune, it's completely in your control.

If you're running the stock block, you won't need 60's. 42's will get you to about the top-end of what the block can handle running gas. If you're running e85 then 60's might not be big enough. e85's again pointless on a stock block. You can easily make the full power the block can handle using gas.

Just because 'Mighty Car Mods' dumps e85 into every piece of rice-junk they build doesn't mean it's actually a good idea. It's just a trick to squeeze another 10% out of an under-powered low-displacement pile of scrap. You won't have that problem with a 5.0HO as gasoline will easily get you to the block-maximum of around 450-500hp at relatively low boost.

If you're looking to get an aftermarket block that's a different story, and a whole different class of build.

MSD box with boost retard - also unnecessary but won't hurt anything. Tune the car to retard timing at boost. With the ~10-12psi you can run before the stock block gives way, the MSD is overkill. A nice Accel TFI coil and down-gapping your plugs to 28 will be more than enough to eliminate spark blow-out.

The 95 doesn't have a knock sensor. Tuning until it detonates with a turbo is a HORRIBLE idea. Extra-safe timing and extra fuel, back off from there.

Innovate LC-2 "LM Programmer" software allows you to select Lambda or AFR output. There's nothing challenging about this. You can fully program the output curve (voltage vs AFR) and have your gauge show whatever you want.

If I could offer my humble opinion - you're looking to do something very simple that's been done a million times before. And the way you're looking to approach it is unusual. If that's what makes you happy, then awesome. But you're prone to spending a lot more money and ending up with poor results if you go about things the way you've planned. Study up on tuning your car (check the date of posts that you're reading), or pay someone to do it. The easy way is often the best way, and everything you describe can be easily accomplished with inexpensive off-the-shelf parts.

Moates Quarterhorse with Binary Editor. An off-the-shelf turbo kit of your choosing and price range. Injectors, a nice PRO-M MAF, an Accel Super-Coil, a Walbro 255lph pump. Add a nice manual boost controller. That's all you need. You'll be at block-splitting horsepower that's streetable and can pass emissions in no time (and for reasonable $).

- Mechanical engineer working in IT the last 25 years running Moates Quarterhorse self-tuned with Binary Editor and using an Innovate LC-2 with a Boost Brothers turbo kit since 2009.

Thank you. Very good advice. I did since read up on the quarter horse. Think that's the rout I will go. Sct and a dyno tune seams like a good easy way out but I really want to learn about tuning. Figure a dime/dozen stock motor is perfect.

I do want everything I do to be ready for 500+ and will put together a motor over the 2018 season to be put in next winter.
 
So I got the 1/4 horse and haveven been learning boat loads every day! My car is all together and I'm working on the tune.

To answer the question ( full disclosure I am a complete novice learning as I go)

I don't know how yet (loaded a bin. Someone already did it to) but you can make the spark tables have cells up to 200%, the computer will calculate up to 200%(no changes needed. It just does) "load" or " volumetric efficiency" (ve.) I don't yet know if those are different words for the same thing or if there are differences. But, for this subject I think it's about the same idea.

I'll use "ve" because that's the one that makes sense to me so far.

So ve. = how much air an air pump(aka motor) can theoretically move. So if the throttle plate is wide open, and you are pulling a trailer up a mountain with out forced induction 100% efficiency is all you could ever achieve. Add a supercharger or something shoveling air in and, you can go to Infinity ve. It works off of atmosphere pressure. 14. Something I think.

All that known,
a 200% ve in a perfect world would mean you are running a perfect motor @ 14.something psi of boost.

So, if you look at timing tables (using what I see for example) the up and down value is load% and the left to right is rpm. If your na motor only gets to 80% ve. Then you know any higher ve% is boost. So you can then reduce values above 80% accordingly.
 
Moates Quarterhorse is about 1/3 the cost of the discontinued Anderson PMS (when it was last around it retailed for $1099). It uses a laptop instead of dedicated tuning screen, but you can adjust almost every parameter available. About 1000 times easier than what you're describing. You can also load multiple tunes (e85 tune, gas tune for example) and switch between them after installing an optional external switch.

FMU is an outdated concept in 2017. Tune the car for increased fuel at boost. Use larger injectors.

You can adjust the function of the IAC within the tune, it's completely in your control.

If you're running the stock block, you won't need 60's. 42's will get you to about the top-end of what the block can handle running gas. If you're running e85 then 60's might not be big enough. e85's again pointless on a stock block. You can easily make the full power the block can handle using gas.

Just because 'Mighty Car Mods' dumps e85 into every piece of rice-junk they build doesn't mean it's actually a good idea. It's just a trick to squeeze another 10% out of an under-powered low-displacement pile of scrap. You won't have that problem with a 5.0HO as gasoline will easily get you to the block-maximum of around 450-500hp at relatively low boost.

If you're looking to get an aftermarket block that's a different story, and a whole different class of build.

MSD box with boost retard - also unnecessary but won't hurt anything. Tune the car to retard timing at boost. With the ~10-12psi you can run before the stock block gives way, the MSD is overkill. A nice Accel TFI coil and down-gapping your plugs to 28 will be more than enough to eliminate spark blow-out.

The 95 doesn't have a knock sensor. Tuning until it detonates with a turbo is a HORRIBLE idea. Extra-safe timing and extra fuel, back off from there.

Innovate LC-2 "LM Programmer" software allows you to select Lambda or AFR output. There's nothing challenging about this. You can fully program the output curve (voltage vs AFR) and have your gauge show whatever you want.

If I could offer my humble opinion - you're looking to do something very simple that's been done a million times before. And the way you're looking to approach it is unusual. If that's what makes you happy, then awesome. But you're prone to spending a lot more money and ending up with poor results if you go about things the way you've planned. Study up on tuning your car (check the date of posts that you're reading), or pay someone to do it. The easy way is often the best way, and everything you describe can be easily accomplished with inexpensive off-the-shelf parts.

Moates Quarterhorse with Binary Editor. An off-the-shelf turbo kit of your choosing and price range. Injectors, a nice PRO-M MAF, an Accel Super-Coil, a Walbro 255lph pump. Add a nice manual boost controller. That's all you need. You'll be at block-splitting horsepower that's streetable and can pass emissions in no time (and for reasonable $).

- Mechanical engineer working in IT the last 25 years running Moates Quarterhorse self-tuned with Binary Editor and using an Innovate LC-2 with a Boost Brothers turbo kit since 2009.
Moates Quarterhorse is about 1/3 the cost of the discontinued Anderson PMS (when it was last around it retailed for $1099). It uses a laptop instead of dedicated tuning screen, but you can adjust almost every parameter available. About 1000 times easier than what you're describing. You can also load multiple tunes (e85 tune, gas tune for example) and switch between them after installing an optional external switch.

FMU is an outdated concept in 2017. Tune the car for increased fuel at boost. Use larger injectors.

You can adjust the function of the IAC within the tune, it's completely in your control.

If you're running the stock block, you won't need 60's. 42's will get you to about the top-end of what the block can handle running gas. If you're running e85 then 60's might not be big enough. e85's again pointless on a stock block. You can easily make the full power the block can handle using gas.

Just because 'Mighty Car Mods' dumps e85 into every piece of rice-junk they build doesn't mean it's actually a good idea. It's just a trick to squeeze another 10% out of an under-powered low-displacement pile of scrap. You won't have that problem with a 5.0HO as gasoline will easily get you to the block-maximum of around 450-500hp at relatively low boost.

If you're looking to get an aftermarket block that's a different story, and a whole different class of build.

MSD box with boost retard - also unnecessary but won't hurt anything. Tune the car to retard timing at boost. With the ~10-12psi you can run before the stock block gives way, the MSD is overkill. A nice Accel TFI coil and down-gapping your plugs to 28 will be more than enough to eliminate spark blow-out.

The 95 doesn't have a knock sensor. Tuning until it detonates with a turbo is a HORRIBLE idea. Extra-safe timing and extra fuel, back off from there.

Innovate LC-2 "LM Programmer" software allows you to select Lambda or AFR output. There's nothing challenging about this. You can fully program the output curve (voltage vs AFR) and have your gauge show whatever you want.

If I could offer my humble opinion - you're looking to do something very simple that's been done a million times before. And the way you're looking to approach it is unusual. If that's what makes you happy, then awesome. But you're prone to spending a lot more money and ending up with poor results if you go about things the way you've planned. Study up on tuning your car (check the date of posts that you're reading), or pay someone to do it. The easy way is often the best way, and everything you describe can be easily accomplished with inexpensive off-the-shelf parts.

Moates Quarterhorse with Binary Editor. An off-the-shelf turbo kit of your choosing and price range. Injectors, a nice PRO-M MAF, an Accel Super-Coil, a Walbro 255lph pump. Add a nice manual boost controller. That's all you need. You'll be at block-splitting horsepower that's streetable and can pass emissions in no time (and for reasonable $).

- Mechanical engineer working in IT the last 25 years running Moates Quarterhorse self-tuned with Binary Editor and using an Innovate LC-2 with a Boost Brothers turbo kit since 2009.

Thanks a lot for the advice! I'm happy with results so far, and the computer stuff becomes less intimidating everyday.

Thank you!
 
Awesome, glad to hear it's working out for you! For PoweredByAFR185's question, Stevenmverrill is definitely on the right track! In my tune, I made the following adjustments:

- Scalar PRLDSW - changed to use actual load % instead of inferred load, this way your computer's calculation of 'load' can go > 100% at boost. Load is based on mass airflow and engine displacement, on a turbo motor this will exceed 100% (I've datalogged mine and seen it go to about 165% at ~11psi). It's kind of like volumetric efficiency, but is measured and calculated based on this data.

- FN012 Spark Scalar for Load, this lets you scale your timing configuration tables up to your maximum load (200), the stock tune goes to 90 but already contains a row for 200. You just have to set the row-value of "90" to "4" instead of "8" (90% is still considered "part throttle" then). When you go take a glance at your Spark Altitude / Borderline / Sea Level tables after this adjustment, you'll see the tables now allow you to set timing all the way up to 200%.

- Adjust the spark tables and pull timing at higher loads and at RPM's where you're in boost. You'll need to completely re-work the tables because their scale completely changes with the FN012 change (i.e. move the values from the 200-row to the 90-row, and follow the patterns in your data).

In my case, at 5000RPM and 200% load I'm at 16 degrees of timing. I pull a little bit of timing at the higher RPM and higher loads - just to be on the safe side - as this is where I'm in boost. Some data-logging and trial & error can help you here - keep the boost low while you're figuring this out and you'll be ok. Even the stock tune at 6psi was ok for me (didn't blow the motor), your mileage may vary. I'm running the spark settings below to around 11psi and have been doing so for several years without incident. (I do run 93 octane pump gas).

I've found the MOST important thing is to run PLENTY of fuel at high boost - there's a FUEL SCALAR for LOAD too (FN072A) where you do this same process - change the scalar to let you see up to 200% in your fuel tables, then adjust your fuel tables. At 200% load at anywhere over 90 degrees F, I'm commanding an 11.5:1 AFR, that's pretty darned rich, but super-safe.

Edit: You'll see a picture of my spark table below - notice I'm using TunerPro since I'm only licensed for BE on my other laptop so your stuff will look a little different, but the concept is the same.

Let me know if you have any questions at all, and happy tuning!
 
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Here's my spark table
spark.JPG
 
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Jozsefsz,

In the base 'bin' (tune) I'm using the person who put it together apparently simplified the timing tables and suggested using the borderline table only. It's my understanding the computer uses the lowest timing value of all the tables at any given time So until I'm chasing ragged Edge power, guess it doesn't much matter what table you use?



Do you think my table looks good as a safe while tuning? Trying to stay extra safe until I get fuel dialed in.

I'm currently refining my idle, and fuel below 2.5v maf.

Still a long way from trying wot. but, figured I'd dumb down the timing now so I don't get excited and forget.
 

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Your understanding is good, in my tune the MBT table is effectively commented out (55's all around), the altitude and sea-level tables are largely identical, and the borderline table is near-stock with the same level of adjustments I'd made to the other tables. In the stock tune, the borderline table pretty much ignores the low-load part of the curve (55's) and has a number of adjustments for AFR, ACT, ECT, etc. It's perfectly ok to let borderline run the whole show for simplification, you're just combining the function of the tables into one. I'm not a professional tuner so I wasn't in any kind of hurry so I kept things as close to stock as possible for driveability, keeping the existing tables and just adjusting where necessary (in my boost range of >2500RPM and >90% load) for safety.

Your spark settings are definitely safe (presuming your other adders are stock and that your base timing is at 10 BTDC) - I'd argue a little too safe, it's probably going to be a bit sluggish. Up to the 90% load mark, I'm completely stock, at that point you'd likely not be in any significant boost. At higher loads I'm pulling 5-10 degrees, in your case it's pulling a lot more, probably more than is needed. You'll be safe but you may have some undesirable effects like possibly red-hot headers and some bad emissions along with the poor performance and mileage. Before you set it all to stock though, make sure the timing is set to stock and that the adders (especially the global-adder and global-multiplier scalars) are set to stock.

The other thing that's a little weird in your settings are the low-load spark values, they seem quite a bit higher than stock. That might have some bad effects on NOx emissions and maybe give some weird pinging.

So in general my advice is not to change a whole bunch of stuff in one swoop, but only make the adjustments you need. Since you're working from an existing tune that can be a bit challenging to understand what the previous tuner did and why. It might make sense to start from stock, use the BE function to compare the differences, and make the changes you're certain make sense. That's my way of doing things at least, and I'm by no means an expert tuner. I've managed to run 11psi for a few years without blowing anything up, and I pass emissions where I am, so that's about my only credentials here. :)
 
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subscribed. I'm using a completely different system, but fundamentals are still fundamentals. I'm very up to speed on my systems base fuel tables, but would love to learn more about how to get timing right.