Welp... Took off my Front Sway Bar!

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

Aaron 4.6 said:
OK, just some guy. I'll bite. The front sway bar is a single piece of metal bent into a D-shape. Its tied to each of the front suspension halves (specifically, the A-arms) by vertical links and bushings that impart force to the bar-ends during times of vertical suspension travel. The bar resists motion only when the two ends are moving in opposite direction (as in during body roll in a corner, but not during nose dive under hard braking). The sway bar is essentially a torsion bar that reduces twisting. It is a critical piece of suspension tuning as it can be used to increase or decrease roll stiffness at the front of the car.

Now if you're done trying to be an internet badass- why don't you inject some tech into your posts and provide an answer! Your challenge was accepted.

Sounds like what my reply would have been (if my hard drives hadn't crashed and I spent last night reinstalling Windows).

In any case,

Now please enlighten us, oh wise and powerful sage, about the mysteries of the front swaybar.

EDIT: And yes, the swaybar does look like it can resist the front end doing any extreme lifting. The A-arms dropping a significant distance would cause the end links to come closer together, which would try and bend the swaybar "inward." It might not be an extremely dramatic resistance, but it would be there.

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

Aaron 4.6 said:
OK, just some guy. I'll bite. The front sway bar is a single piece of metal bent into a D-shape. Its tied to each of the front suspension halves (specifically, the A-arms) by vertical links and bushings that impart force to the bar-ends during times of vertical suspension travel. The bar resists motion only when the two ends are moving in opposite direction (as in during body roll in a corner, but not during nose dive under hard braking). The sway bar is essentially a torsion bar that reduces twisting. It is a critical piece of suspension tuning as it can be used to increase or decrease roll stiffness at the front of the car.

Now if you're done trying to be an internet badass- why don't you inject some tech into your posts and provide an answer! Your challenge was accepted.

ok...where did u copy this off of? first, it doesnt look like a d shape...
second it connects both of the A-arms, to the chassis, so that if one A-arm, is pushing up, lets say in a really fast hard right turn, the swaybar, plants the left wheel, using the chassis' weight.

removing a swaybar can take up to 2 tenths off of someone's 60' time(on a stock suspensioned car) because under hard acceleration, when car attempts to transfer the weight, it pulls the front end up, but with the sway bar, the front end is connected to the A-arms, which are in turn connected to the wheels, our cars do not have enough power to lift all of this, so the amount of front-rear weight transfer is negativly affected. hows that?

ill even draw you a diagram later if you want

Aaron 4.6 · Feb 5, 2004

Lets go through your post a step at a time. I will omit the use of quote tags to save myself time and instead just use quotation marks for your "points". My rebuttal will be below:

"ok...where did u copy this off of?"

I didn't. I'm an engineer. When you spend years of your life explaining technical concepts to non-technical people (managers, vendors, family members, etc.) you learn how to make abstract concepts take shape in a concise and logical manner. I can do the same for other vehicular systems for you if you need help at a later date.

"first, it doesnt look like a d shape..."

Yes, it does look like a D shape, but since you are staring at your keyboard I'm not surprised it went over your head. Have you noticed that "C"-clamps don't look like the letter C? In fact, they are larger, and the letter C doesn't have a threaded component used to secure objects? Its a useful description, but not to be taken literally. The D shape comes from a long, straight section of material that is bent 90 degrees in the same direction at each end of the bar. Kind of like the right half of the letter D. Got it? Good.

"second it connects both of the A-arms, to the chassis"

OK. We have to step back to my earlier post. To avoid confusion as to who is saying what, I'll use quote tags for this one:

Aaron 4.6 said:
Its tied to each of the front suspension halves (specifically, the A-arms)

I bolded the word 'arms' so you would notice the plural form of the word arm.

Your statement as written a bit confusing, but I think I know what you mean. The purpose of the swaybar is NOT to tie the A-arms to the chassis, but it does do this after a fashion. Your statement is mostly repeating what I have already noted. Both A-arms are connection points for the bar end-links. Now you throw in the word chassis, but I am unsure if you mean the bar attaches to the chassis (it does, by the bushings in the middle- which has no impact on the intent of sway bar operation) or if (by extension) the A-arms are attached to the chassis (they are). I think you mean the former, as it bears on your later statement.

"so that if one A-arm, is pushing up, lets say in a really fast hard right turn, the swaybar, plants the left wheel, using the chassis' weight"

Jesus, man. Did you even read my post????? How did you miss this?

Aaron 4.6 said:
vertical links and bushings that impart force to the bar-ends during times of vertical suspension travel. The bar resists motion only when the two ends are moving in opposite direction (as in during body roll in a corner

"removing a swaybar can take up to 2 tenths off of someone's 60' time(on a stock suspensioned car) because under hard acceleration, when car attempts to transfer the weight, it pulls the front end up, but with the sway bar, the front end is connected to the A-arms, which are in turn connected to the wheels, our cars do not have enough power to lift all of this, so the amount of front-rear weight transfer is negativly affected. hows that?"

Now we have something useful! Your explanation is not 100% on the money, but it does have some value. Removing the swaybar does NOT decouple the front end from the car. If it did, the wheels and tires would fall off! The front end is still connected by the A-arms and the struts to the chassis. However, you do answer the question- because the sway bar is connected to the chassis at a couple of points using rubber bushings that prevent the bar from moving all over the place. Disconnecting the swaybar links will allow the front end to rise farther before trying to lift the weight of the wheels, brakes and tires. The suspension will eventually run out of travel and have to be lifted anyway (assuming you have enough engine power), but removing the bar postpones this event to a later date. Excellent! That is exactly what we were trying to discover. It certainly answers the question of:

"I believe I read that just loosening it is enough to help with weight transfer. Sounds easy enough to do Can anyone say for sure? "

The answer should be "no", because unless the bar is completely uncoupled, the chassis will still try to lift the front end due to the bushings. NOW- this could all have been wrapped up in a tidy package a while back if:

a) you hadn't been a jerk-off about this and had simply provided the tech
b) see all of the above

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

Also, how would the sway bar plant (provide downward force) on the opposite wheel when the suspension on the other side is being compessed? The compressed side would lift its end of the bar up, twist the swaybar, and (try to) have the opposite end move upwards as well. I don't see how that makes the sway bar "plant" the other wheel. Sounds like a job for the springs and shocks to me.

Maybe Aaron can enlighten me.

Aaron 4.6 · Feb 5, 2004

Gino- here's a decent thread on c-c.com that addresses swaybars. RoushGTR has some solid tech in here:

Clicky

Warprunner · Feb 5, 2004

Well, certainly an education on Sway Bars. Sounds strange, but have to thank you both...1 for misrepresentation and the other for a quite lengthy and detailed explanation. One way or another, I learned a great deal in the process. Thank you!!!'

dkshadow · Feb 5, 2004

Warprunner said:
Well, certainly an education on Sway Bars. Sounds strange, but have to thank you both...1 for misrepresentation and the other for a quite lengthy and detailed explanation. One way or another, I learned a great deal in the process. Thank you!!!'

THATS MY AVATAR!!!!

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

Aaron - Wow, good find.

BMan5150 · Feb 5, 2004

TARZAN said:
Plus you lose probably 30-40lbs. and get much better weight transfer for traction....

-Will

Are you serious? Does the stock front sway bar really weigh 30-40 lbs? What do aftermarket sway bars weigh? When I did my springs, I never would have thought the sway bar weighed that much, but I didn't entirely remove it from the car.

BMan5150 · Feb 5, 2004

BTW, great link. Sounds like an aftermarket sway bar on a mustang in itself won't exactly help my winter traction!!!

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

front sway bar weighs 17 lbs

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

Aaron 4.6 said:
"first, it doesnt look like a d shape..."

"second it connects both of the A-arms, to the chassis"

Your statement as written a bit confusing, but I think I know what you mean. The purpose of the swaybar is NOT to tie the A-arms to the chassisyou understood, but it does do this after a fashion. Your

Now you throw in the word chassis, but I am unsure if you mean the bar attaches to the chassis (it does, by the bushings in the middle- which has no impact on the intent of sway bar operation) or if (by extension) the A-arms are attached to the chassis (they are). I think you mean the former, as it bears on your later statement.correct again

"removing a swaybar can take up to 2 tenths off of someone's 60' time(on a stock suspensioned car) because under hard acceleration, when car attempts to transfer the weight backward the rear end squats and it pulls the front end up. With the sway bar connected the front end's upper suspension travel is decreased because it is VERTICALLY connected to the A-arms using a part that does not allow vertical movement(the endlinks). The A-arms are which in turn connected to the k-member and the wheels. Undoing the sway bar, removed this vertical limitation in the stock suspension geometry and allows our cars in stock form to maximize the suspension travel on a launch.

Now we have something useful! Your explanation is not 100% on the money, but it does have some value. Removing the swaybar does NOT decouple the front end from the car) i know, i was speaking vertically, thats why i changed the upward paragraph, i agree, my explanation was too vague, but most non-engineers do not understand what you are trying to say, if you dont add a little abstract to the exactness. If it did, the wheels and tires would fall off! The front end is still connected by the A-arms and the struts to the chassis. However, you do answer the question- because the sway bar is connected to the chassis at a couple of points using rubber bushings that prevent the bar from moving all over the place. Disconnecting the swaybar links will allow the front end to rise farther before trying to lift the weight of the wheels, brakes and tires. The suspension will eventually run out of travel and have to be lifted anyway (assuming you have enough engine power), but removing the bar postpones this event to a later date. Excellent! That is exactly what we were trying to discover. It certainly answers the question of:

"I believe I read that just loosening it is enough to help with weight transfer. Sounds easy enough to do Can anyone say for sure? "
everything in bold is either changed or it is a reply.
sorry i was not clear enough,

i am in college to be a mechanical engineer btw

ps. i was arguing with some people over at corral and ive become a little bitter, because everyone tries to act like they know what they are talking about, and no one does, and it just ticks me off. i will try to not be so quick to flame.

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

But the swaybar can only pivot, I don't see how it plants the inside wheel at all.

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

it doesnt pivot though, it has no lateral(front to back movement) hell, the swaybar doesnt move at all, everything else moves around it, or it flexes(im not sure about the structural integrity of the s/b.

hold on...i will make a diagram, gimme like 20 minutes

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

just some guy said:
it doesnt pivot though, it has no lateral(front to back movement) hell, the swaybar doesnt move at all, everything else moves around it, or it flexes(im not sure about the structural integrity of the s/b.

hold on...i will make a diagram, gimme like 20 minutes

By pivoting I mean the flexing/twisting through the mounts that it goes through.

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

if it moves within the mounts, it is very small. im still working on this drawing

GinoGT · Feb 5, 2004

just some guy said:
if it moves within the mounts, it is very small. im still working on this drawing

Yeah it is, just a tiny bit of twisting.

just some guy · Feb 5, 2004

ahhh, crap, i am giving up on it, but look at it like this, when you make that hard right, the body of the car is going to tilt left, the sway bar, is connected to the body, and since there is no flex between X amount of length between the swaybar mount to the chassis, and the a-arm. that left front wheel, pushes back against the chassis, and makes it push the inner wheel.

ya know what i am saying, the car exerts force against the swaybar, and the swaybar exerts the force back against the car and onto the opposite wheel. since the a-arms move up and down, the point of the swaybar is to counter this upward to level the car out in a turn.

forpit2000gt · Feb 6, 2004

you must have broken all your crayons. Why are you arguing about this ? I would say it does have a D shape as well, but that doesn't really matter. removing the sway bar does help at the staight track.

Welp... Took off my Front Sway Bar!

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