Which is the smart way? Rebuild or crate shortblock?

['66 coupe]

Basically I'm looking to see which way would be the most cost effective.

I have a '69 302 sitting in my garage in Orlando. I bought it in pieces, but it was all stock from the 2v intake to the crank and pistons. Visual inspection of the block shows that it should be okay, but I have no idea w/o taking it in.

What I'm looking for is personal experience on the costs of rebuilding the shortblock assuming the block can be cleaned up, bored, rods reconditioned and the crank can be reconditioned. I would like to assemble it myself.

The other option is going with a Ford Racing 302 roller shortblock(M-6009-B50) for around $1350.

If the cost is only a couple hundred dollars more for the Ford Racing unit, I'll go that way to avoid the chance of having a machine shop figure out the '69 block is bad.

So if anyone whose rebuilt an engine can give me a general idea at the costs I'm looking at, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[D.Hearne]

[QUOTE='66 coupe]Basically I'm looking to see which way would be the most cost effective.

I have a '69 302 sitting in my garage in Orlando. I bought it in pieces, but it was all stock from the 2v intake to the crank and pistons. Visual inspection of the block shows that it should be okay, but I have no idea w/o taking it in.

What I'm looking for is personal experience on the costs of rebuilding the shortblock assuming the block can be cleaned up, bored, rods reconditioned and the crank can be reconditioned. I would like to assemble it myself.

The other option is going with a Ford Racing 302 roller shortblock(M-6009-B50) for around $1350.

If the cost is only a couple hundred dollars more for the Ford Racing unit, I'll go that way to avoid the chance of having a machine shop figure out the '69 block is bad.

So if anyone whose rebuilt an engine can give me a general idea at the costs I'm looking at, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks[/QUOTE]
The advantage to rebuilding yourself thru a local machine shop , is you have more control over what's done there. Also you'd know what the history is of the parts you're using ( which I assume from what you posted, you don't) Most times it's cheaper to go the crate or shortblock route. If you can afford the crate motor, then go for it. If you just want a stock type rebuild, then there's another route: buy a factory recon shortblock and once you recieve it, go over the workmanship ( mainly torque values) and also replace the rod bolts with ARP's. I did just this on one I bought locally ( $340 for a roller 5.0 ) and ran it for over a year, subjected it to daily "freeway blasts" ( hitting 6500 rpms in 1st and 2nd gear) then replaced the heads with some Canfields, topped with a Vic Jr. then wailed on it some more up to 7500 rpms. In the end, the block cracked a cylinder wall, to rotating asssembly held up fine.

 

['66 coupe]

If you just want a stock type rebuild, then there's another route: buy a factory recon shortblock and once you recieve it, go over the workmanship ( mainly torque values) and also replace the rod bolts with ARP's.

I've actually considered this just to get something in the car.
But when I checked at Advance Autoparts, their stuff was like $1700 for a 302 Longblock.
Any suggestions on other places to look? If Advance's prices are about normal, I should think I'd be better off with the Ford Racing stuff.

 

[D.Hearne]

The one I bought was done by City Motor Supply in Dallas Tx. I bought it thru a Napa parts house. City Motor has a website. The roller 5.0 had stock rods and crank, but had Silvolite hypereutectic flattops. The timing set sucked ( thin el-cheapo set, I tossed it for a double roller) Best $340 I ever spent. ( that's exchanged)

 

[hungrymonkey]

If you have the cash, and need to have it done in a short time frame. Then go with the crate.

if you do not mind saving a couple hundred bucks but sacrificing a signifigant amount of time (rebuild, machine shop, etc) then build one. You also have to be mildly competant at reading instructions. Its not rocket science, but if you miss a step it will be expensive.

I just finished a build on a chevy 350. If I had to do it again, I would of gone the crate motor route. It would have been done in less than a week, opposed to the nearly 3 months (I am slow).

Some crate motors will offer a 1 year/XX amount of miles. Type of warranty. It might be conditional of who installs and starts the motor though.

 

[zookeeper]

I don't know how some of the crate motor builders build engines so cheap. I recently bought a 328hp/302 crate motor that had parts like a new Edelbrock intake, Comp Cams, camshaft, lifters, pushrods and roller rockers, ported 351W heads with new Comp Springs, and new valves, FelPro gaskets, KB pistons and Clevite bearings for $2695 to my door, no exchange. Before I bought it, I priced the exact same parts, plus machine work from both various catalogs, and through RPM Machine and couldn't even come close. My motor also comes with a 12 month warrantee, vs. no warrantee if I'd done it myself. I really don't see me building another motor when I can buy a better one cheaper. But be careful, there are lots of fly-by-nite builders out there, like Jon Barrett, who seems to be in hot rod magazine a lot, but sells junk motors that he doesn't stand behind.

 

[damannhw]

If you don't mind a little work, here's an option I've used several times now. Buy a 1996-2001 Explorer 5.0 V8 from a wrecking yard. Look for the lowest mile unit you can find. They sell anywhere from $600-$1200. The '99 I have now cost me $750 with only 30K miles ! I sold the GT-40P heads, Cobra style upper and lower intakes, and all the other items and cleared my entire $750 plus some profit !! The late model Mustang guys buy these items like crazy, and the guys doing Ranger V8 conversions but the oil pans, headers, and timing covers w/ brackets. The wiring harness and cam sensors are also selling well now. It takes some time and effort, but you get a free low mile shortblock roller engine !! If you want more details about asking prices, shoot me a PM.

 

[D.Hearne]

If you don't mind a little work, here's an option I've used several times now. Buy a 1996-2001 Explorer 5.0 V8 from a wrecking yard. Look for the lowest mile unit you can find. They sell anywhere from $600-$1200. The '99 I have now cost me $750 with only 30K miles ! I sold the GT-40P heads, Cobra style upper and lower intakes, and all the other items and cleared my entire $750 plus some profit !! The late model Mustang guys buy these items like crazy, and the guys doing Ranger V8 conversions but the oil pans, headers, and timing covers w/ brackets. The wiring harness and cam sensors are also selling well now. It takes some time and effort, but you get a free low mile shortblock roller engine !! If you want more details about asking prices, shoot me a PM.

Just be careful spinnin that Exploder motor their rods ain't what the older ones had. They DO however have an excellant street cam in them. Even better if you increase the lift with a set of 1.7 roller rockers.

 

[ashford]

id be leary of the workmanship of any ordered engine. especially gm goodwrench, iv'e seen more bad ones than good ones. most of the time you have a good machinist and tools in these factories and have people who barely break minimum wage who barely speak english assemble them.
View attachment 490008
i swear this engine was put togeather on a 100 degree day with all the doors open in the middle of a sand storm. this was a gm goodwrench 4 bolt main 350 it only had 5000 miles on it.

i trust local machinists more than someone iv'e never even talked to before. if you plan on buying a crate motor you'll get good parts but if it was me it would be torn down thourouly cleaned and reassembled. also if you have the machinist assemble the engine it normally has a comprable warrenty too.

 

[damannhw]

Just be careful spinnin that Exploder motor their rods ain't what the older ones had. They DO however have an excellant street cam in them. Even better if you increase the lift with a set of 1.7 roller rockers.

Yep, but I've had good luck with 'em. I never zing one over 6000 anyway. I had a '86 5.0 that ran 8.0's in the 8th w/ a stock Explorer GT40 engine and E303. No other mods !! The '65 has an auto and will mainly be a cruiser to play with a little. If I were going to use these engines for ANY SERIOUS duty or racing, you are right though ! They are just a super alternative price wise for a street driven car IMO.
As far as that srock cam, it's in a box on my work bench right now if anyone wants it !! Just pay the ship and it's yours.

 

[D.Hearne]

I may want that explorer cam, let me get back to you. How many miles did it have on it ?

 

[MustangMatt1966]

if you need a guys number, i live in orlando and had my 289 machined and built by a very reputable guy who specializes on fords, he actually has a few that he drag races...did a great job and i havent had any problems at all...only thing is you have to have the engine out and get it to him, he wont pull it there

 

[Jester67]

View attachment 489950

I see your problem that 350 had an extra piston in it.
For me I will be buying a create engine when the time comes.

 

[NasaGT]

I see your problem that 350 had an extra piston in it.

 

[milner351]

I will almost always do my own rebuilds. To me the engine is the heart of the car, and the part of the car that I love to tinker with the most.

No one loves your car as much as you do, and no one will spend the time and attention to detail on your engine that you will.

If you don't have the tools or the space or the time or patience, save your money and buy a long/short block from a reputable source.

I have micrometers, bore gauge, scale, torque wrenches, and engine stands.
I love working with my desk top dyno program running through iterations of different cam profiles and the like to get just the power and torque curve shapes I'm looking for.

I also rebuild my own carburetors and distributors. Anyone can if you read some of the great books available, and read up on boards like this one.

Having a reputable machine shop close to home certainly helps. For what it's worth, my local machine shop will do all the machining and assembly work to rebuild a small block ford to stock specs for $1000 and have it done in a week. That's pretty tough to beat.

Do your research and make your own decision.

For me, the pleasure of cleaning, measuring, and massaging each part of my engine is too satisfying to leave to someone else.

 

[jerry S]

I don't know how some of the crate motor builders build engines so cheap. .

Just remember that good ain't cheap, cheap ain't good, and you get what you pay for.

The answer to your pondering is that they use reconditioned rods, crappy timing chains, non-ARP bolts, and what not. If they were using quality parts, the cost would be there just in terms of materials before ever getting to labor.

 

['66 coupe]

I think I'm gonna go the Explorer/Mountaneer route. Seems perfect for what I'm planning. And after looking into it(calling yards), I should be able to pull off what dmannhw was talking about.
Basically my plan is just to have a mild engine, while I build the brakes, suspension, rear, and tranny the way I want. I'll get my '69 heads worked.
Then when I get more money after I graduate in a couple years I can build the '69 block into a 331, 342, or 347. Then I should be able to just swap out the shortblocks.

 

[damannhw]

'66 coupe, You could actually use the Explorer heads if you buy a '96 model with true GT40's instead of having your heads done. May want to check some prices there. The '97 and later heads are GT40P's that will not work with your manifolds. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll send you a list of prices I sold items for.

Also, remember you'll need a 50oz balance balancer and flywheel. I used a Professional Products balancer off eBay for around $60 and TCI flywheel from Summit also for around $60. I'll look up those P/N's for you. Good luck with it !

Also, DHEARNE, I sent you an e-mail about the cam.

 

[zookeeper]

Just remember that good ain't cheap, cheap ain't good, and you get what you pay for.

The answer to your pondering is that they use reconditioned rods, crappy timing chains, non-ARP bolts, and what not. If they were using quality parts, the cost would be there just in terms of materials before ever getting to labor.

I've been around cars long enough to know quality. The only thing the builder re-used was the crank (ground and polished) and the rods (resized with ARP bolts), the block (line-honed, bored and decked), the heads (ported 351W heads with ARP screw-in studs and Comp Cams plates, springs, retainers, new stainless valves, new hardened seats and a three angle valve job). It also has a double roller timing chain, so where did you get your info on my motor? The last motor I rebuilt was the original 427 in my wife's Corvette, and it cost about $4,000 more or less. BTW, it costs roughly the same to rebuild a BB Chevy as a SB Ford from my experience. I'm sure that some builders build motors such as you described, but there are some that build quality motors cheaper than you or I could had we done it ourselves. I know everyone likes to think they are an engine builder, but the guys that do it day in and day out probably forgot more than I'll ever know so when I find a good one, I give him the opportunity. I haven't been sorry so far...

 

['66 coupe]

'66 coupe, You could actually use the Explorer heads if you buy a '96 model with true GT40's instead of having your heads done. May want to check some prices there.

My roommate actually found a '96 at one yard the bodyshop he works at buys stuff from. It was $400 but had high miles, so for what I want to do, I'm gonna pass. Hopefully I can find something with low miles.