Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
tyler, dude come on. IF they make the cobra a v10 the aftermarket WILL suck. Some say the 4.6L aftermarket still sucks...although its better than most vehicles. the DOHC and SOHC's are not designed identically but they are both mod motors and bolt on interchangeably etc. The point is that when you go to a v10 you WILL increase R&D costs...when they can use research already done with mass produced SOHC engines, and further that to develope parts for another v8 with DOHC heads then thats one thing. But taking a totally different engine that nolonger has interchangeable parts
then you can forget low cost. Moreover were talking about 8k production / year at the most.

kirkyg

You still have not responded to my question. How is it any different from what everyon was crying about 8 years ago when the 4.6 was introduced?

They should keep the 27 year old 302 the R&D was already done....

There won't be an aftermarket for the new 4.6....

The 4.6 won't have interchangeable parts to my 5.0....

Your argument is 100% flawed. It is the EXACT same as the 4.6 VS 5.0 debate from nearly a decade ago.

You stated that your argument was different then that one, now PROVE IT!

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Dude i just explained it to you in plain english.

Alright if you still need help let me explain it like this...chevy stayed with pushrod for the 5.7L in the ls1 for the same reason ford will not put a v10 in the cobra. R&D...that being said aftermarket companies have the same reason for either making a new product or not making it. If they are going to make a product they have to completely design from scratch for a new v10 engine in a cobra and its also a low production vehicle make it not very profitable for aftermarket companies then they simply wont do it.

kirkyg

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

btw, there are 0 aftermarket heads for the 4.6L...and there are also no companies that plan to make any (or atleast have announced plans).

kirkyg

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Dude i just explained it to you in plain english.

Alright if you still need help let me explain it like this...chevy stayed with pushrod for the 5.7L in the ls1 for the same reason ford will not put a v10 in the cobra. R&D...that being said aftermarket companies have the same reason for either making a new product or not making it. If they are going to make a product they have to completely design from scratch for a new v10 engine in a cobra and its also a low production vehicle make it not very profitable for aftermarket companies then they simply wont do it.

kirkyg

WTF kind of argument is that? If that was a true statement, then we would still have the pushrod 5.0 in the Mustang. Do you honestly think that Ford spent zero time and zero money on R&D for the 4.6? By your reasoning, Car makers would NEVER develope new engines at all. Just because Chevy still uses the 350 in the Vette means nothing at all. That, and I hope you are aware that they are developing a new engine for the Vette.

The 4.6 had ZERO aftermarket when it was introduced to the public. Neither did the 350 or the 302 or any newly developed engine in the history of the internal combustion engine.

Don't patronize me with your "I explained it in plain English" BS. That is back petalling at it's finest. If you can't come up with a good answer, just say so, but don't go acting like calling me stupid will get you out of an argument. If you plan on bringing a knife to a gun fight, at least bring a bigger knife than that.

skywarp · Dec 5, 2003

This =

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

what the freak ever man...no more time wasted on this idiotic thread. There will be no v10 in the cobra its as simple as this.

Z28x · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Dude i just explained it to you in plain english.

Alright if you still need help let me explain it like this...chevy stayed with pushrod for the 5.7L in the ls1 for the same reason ford will not put a v10 in the cobra. R&D...that being said aftermarket companies have the same reason for either making a new product or not making it. If they are going to make a product they have to completely design from scratch for a new v10 engine in a cobra and its also a low production vehicle make it not very profitable for aftermarket companies then they simply wont do it.

kirkyg

THe 5.7L LS1 is a 100% different engine than the 5.7L LT, they share ZERO parts. the LS1 was designed from the ground up. In fact the LS1 is a 346, the Lt1 is a 350. THe 351 V10 does share parts with other Ford engines, it is basically a 4.6L with 2 more cyl. grafted on, (281/8)*10=351 Thus, if built it would share around 75% of its parts with the 4.6L V8. It is a very do-able engine. THe only question I see with it is cost, if they can build it for within $2000 of a V8 than I say do it. As I mentioned earlier the 6.8L V10 in the F-250 cost only $600 more than the 5.4L V8. If the 351 ends up costing to much to built, maybe they could make an Aluminum block 6.8L V10 and put in some more agressive cams and heads.

Ohio 1989GT · Dec 5, 2003

Check this out: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0308_amv8_boss/

This is Motor Trend's article on the V-10. Notice how it states "...all-aluminum, DOHC V-10 based on the current Modular 4.6 comes out to be just a smidgen under 351 cubic inches."

And #'s "On a chassis dynamometer, its clandestine motor is said to deliver 430 horsepower and 405 lb-ft of torque to the rear wheels."

And about the truck motor: "this engine is in no way related to the 6.8-liter/310-horsepower SOHC Triton V-10 used in F-250 pickups."

Heres the combo: "...the cylinder heads and block are special castings. The oil pan, intake manifold, and 54-degree crank also are one-offs. Fortunately, the accessory belt-drive system is another component borrowed directly from the Modular V-8 family. Since there's no Ford computer software or electronic hardware for a V-10 of this type, this 351 takes its signals from two blinking dash-mounted control units that run each five-hole cylinder bank independently. The handcrafted V-10 sounds wonderful, firing through two Borla mufflers, two more Dynamax muffs, and 2.5-inch tail pipes. Its voice somewhat reminds us of a big-bore Italian V-12's, particularly the bass notes issued up when you get heavy into the pedal. And the burble in no way resembles the vacuum-cleaner-like hiss of the early Viper's V-10. Sometimes things just work out, though two fewer mufflers would be fine by us."

The weight: "Our short experience behind the wheel indicates the engine's all-aluminum mass doesn't upset the car's basic balance much, either."

The acceleration: "On our first two acceleration runs, the rubber went up in smoke--in first, second, and third gears. It's an unsettling--but big-time fun--feeling to be spooling rear tires and yawing slightly sideways at better than 80 mph." And "Finally, we scrabbled out a still-traction-limited 4.4-second blast to 60 and a 12.88/114.44 quarter-mile run. That beats the solid 4.8 to 60 and 13.01 at 110.69 we recently achieved driving an '03 SVT Cobra with the supercharged 4.6. We're confident that, with a set of drag slicks, sub-four-second runs to 60, a quarter in the low 12s, and a warped driveshaft are all possible."

Wow what a long post- hope this clears up the V10 stuff.

JaysGreenLX · Dec 5, 2003

Ohio 1989GT said:
Check this out: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0308_amv8_boss/

This is Motor Trend's article on the V-10. Notice how it states "...all-aluminum, DOHC V-10 based on the current Modular 4.6 comes out to be just a smidgen under 351 cubic inches."

And #'s "On a chassis dynamometer, its clandestine motor is said to deliver 430 horsepower and 405 lb-ft of torque to the rear wheels."

And about the truck motor: "this engine is in no way related to the 6.8-liter/310-horsepower SOHC Triton V-10 used in F-250 pickups."

Heres the combo: "...the cylinder heads and block are special castings. The oil pan, intake manifold, and 54-degree crank also are one-offs. Fortunately, the accessory belt-drive system is another component borrowed directly from the Modular V-8 family. Since there's no Ford computer software or electronic hardware for a V-10 of this type, this 351 takes its signals from two blinking dash-mounted control units that run each five-hole cylinder bank independently. The handcrafted V-10 sounds wonderful, firing through two Borla mufflers, two more Dynamax muffs, and 2.5-inch tail pipes. Its voice somewhat reminds us of a big-bore Italian V-12's, particularly the bass notes issued up when you get heavy into the pedal. And the burble in no way resembles the vacuum-cleaner-like hiss of the early Viper's V-10. Sometimes things just work out, though two fewer mufflers would be fine by us."

The weight: "Our short experience behind the wheel indicates the engine's all-aluminum mass doesn't upset the car's basic balance much, either."

The acceleration: "On our first two acceleration runs, the rubber went up in smoke--in first, second, and third gears. It's an unsettling--but big-time fun--feeling to be spooling rear tires and yawing slightly sideways at better than 80 mph." And "Finally, we scrabbled out a still-traction-limited 4.4-second blast to 60 and a 12.88/114.44 quarter-mile run. That beats the solid 4.8 to 60 and 13.01 at 110.69 we recently achieved driving an '03 SVT Cobra with the supercharged 4.6. We're confident that, with a set of drag slicks, sub-four-second runs to 60, a quarter in the low 12s, and a warped driveshaft are all possible."

Wow what a long post- hope this clears up the V10 stuff.

Now that sounds like what I have been talking about this whole time.

SVTdriver · Dec 5, 2003

That post just goes to show the extra money involved in bringing that to actual production.To do it would mean they would have to make the castings for blockk and cylinder heads. Oil pan, crank and intake all have to have to have castings made. Andthey have to develope the ellectronics. While those are all currently in use in the current S/C V8. I'm not saying they could not do it. Just that it helps raise the cost.

Yes tyler the aftermarket for the 302 took a long time to catch up. So now you want to restart that clock. And I'm betting that the modmotor cars going inthe 9's are mostly not N/A. And from what i've seen a turbo or s/c is a fairly effective value wise. R&D investment will be paid by those who want to drag race. It is a far greater potential returnon investment.

awalbert88 · Dec 6, 2003

rhumbline said:
V8? Naw, been there, done that.
V10? Viper's already got the cache on that.

So how about...

V12?

Crazy? Probably, but what the hell, why not have a little fun on these forums But here are some rationales:

Heritage: Every Mustang once had a V12 -- the P-51 Mustang that is. If you want heritage, then let's go all the way back to the Mustang's namesake.

Availability: Ford has already engineered Duratec-based V12s as seen in various show cars and even in their Aston Martins, though that version is highly modified and hand built.

Cost: As per the above, the engineering has basically been done and could, for the vast majority of its parts, use off the shelf Duratec pieces, which would be good not only for initial affordability, but also stocking replacement parts for dealerships.

Power: Even just scaling up Duratec specific outputs, you would get a 400hp 5.0 (2 x 2.5 Contour SVT's 200hp) or a 480hp 6.0 (2 x Jag 3.0's 240hp). Either of these specific outputs could readily be increased to get well over 500 in the 6.0, naturally aspirated.

Sound: For anyone who has heard a V12 with a good exhaust system, I need say no more, an uncanny symphony of silken refinement and commanding raw power. A foreboding Grizzly growl at idle, a banshee wail in the midrange and a spine tingling shriek of the Valkeries at redline ... must be heard to believe. http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/sound/v12e.wav (and this clip hardly captures the full richness and range of a V12 sound.)

Size/Weight: Not sure of this, but the Duratec based V12's are all AL and, if I can recall, reasonably compact and light, probably on par with the V10 Mod motor.

Other: The ethereal, turbine smoothness and Kansas plains power/torque curve are something to be experienced, the surreal smoothness gives a real iron fist in a velvet glove demeanor. And again, the distinction for a higher-end Cobra -- Vette's already got a V8, the Viper the V10, what's left for Ford to set apart the Cobra?

Admittedly, this is fairly pie-in-the-sky, but it would certainly give Ford and the Mustang a huge distinction in terms of being the first truly mass market V12, which would echo Ford's intent with the original flat head V8 being the first V8 for the masses -- how's that for some more heritage?

A 5.0 V12? I'd love to see it happen, perhaps as a $65,000 'R' model with a pure racing suspension, and weight reduction down to below 3000lbs. THAT would be a sweet Mustang.

Z28x · Dec 6, 2003

A V12 would probably be too long for the mustang, but who knows..

If a V12 is put into any Ford built car it should be the Town Car, that thing is hurting for HP

RussStang · Dec 14, 2003

Ohio1989, I love reading that article. It would be truly badass if Ford put that engine into a vehicle. From the videos I have seen, it sounds really bad ass, too many mufflers or not.

Ohio 1989GT · Dec 14, 2003

According to the Feb. 5.0 Mustang,

"We agree the sound is both appealing and distinctive, unlikely to be mistaken for any old V-8, even though the Boss 351 is thoroughly muffled with four mufflers, along with two metallic and two ceramic catalytic converters."

I wonder what it would sound like with an offroad x and a good cat-back?

modmotordaddy · Dec 17, 2003

V10!!!

Jugg2Driver · Dec 17, 2003

I choose a V-8 For me Mustangs and V-8s just go together. I'm mean the one thing that always comes to mind when thinking about a Mustang is the sweet sound of the V-8!!!

Matt

63_Fairlane · Dec 17, 2003

tylers65 said:
You still have not responded to my question. How is it any different from what everyon was crying about 8 years ago when the 4.6 was introduced?

They should keep the 27 year old 302 the R&D was already done....

There won't be an aftermarket for the new 4.6....

The 4.6 won't have interchangeable parts to my 5.0....

Your argument is 100% flawed. It is the EXACT same as the 4.6 VS 5.0 debate from nearly a decade ago.

You stated that your argument was different then that one, now PROVE IT!

The reason 5.0 people were pissed is because they weren't 5.0 people, they were MUSTANG people and the 4.6 liter engine was not even fully developed when they started production!!!!! It made the car SLOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it hard to believe that pissed people off???????
If the 4.6 had produced 250 HP when it was launched, no one would have questioned the move, but it didn't.

This V10 thing is completely different. If they put a V10 in a Cobra it will perform from the factory. Aftermarket need not apply. It will be like a Porche or a Viper or a COBRA R for that matter in that it will be out of reach of the common man. Besides, if the 4.6/5.4 engines are so awesome why are we having this debate?????

KidTwist51 · Dec 19, 2003

My vote is for a blown V8, although a V10 wouldn't upset me I suppose. I would have to imagine that down the road it'd be more affordable to modify an 8 than a 10, easier, and the engine would most likely be lighter. Plus I agree with the exhaust argument... While a Viper can whoop some ass... they really don't sound like they should... especially the old ones. Of course that's Chrysler... that's like blaming a kid for smoking pot when his parents are crack heads. Can you blame him? Nope, especially when he kicks the crap out of you.

-Chris

tylers65 · Dec 19, 2003

63_Fairlane said:
The reason 5.0 people were pissed is because they weren't 5.0 people, they were MUSTANG people and the 4.6 liter engine was not even fully developed when they started production!!!!! It made the car SLOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it hard to believe that pissed people off???????
If the 4.6 had produced 250 HP when it was launched, no one would have questioned the move, but it didn't.

This V10 thing is completely different. If they put a V10 in a Cobra it will perform from the factory. Aftermarket need not apply. It will be like a Porche or a Viper or a COBRA R for that matter in that it will be out of reach of the common man. Besides, if the 4.6/5.4 engines are so awesome why are we having this debate?????

So you are saying that the engine made the car slower? It couldn't possibly be the fact that the SN-95 weigh a boat load more than the Fox?

DBMSTNG · Dec 20, 2003

since the V10 is based off the 4.6L, it wouldn't be hard for aftermarket companies to create products for the V10. for headers, they'd just have to add one more pipe to each side. underdrive pulleys would be the same. forged internals the same except the crank. throttle bodies are standard Ford issue. cams wouldn't be hard to make. the only problem aftermarket companies would have is heads. and we have that problem now with our V8's that have been out since 96 in the Mustang.

awalbert88: 351ci = 5.8L

SVTdriver: the V10 weighs less than the 03 Cobra motor, so handling would actually be better. crash tests should not be a problem as the frame is designed to take the brunt of the impact and not the engine.

Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?