Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?

SVTdriver · Dec 20, 2003

Yesh but I'm betting it's at least a little longer. Which might mean it starts closer to the firewall (or they may have to modify the firewall). Which could throw off the crash tests. As it would take less impact for it to start pushing into the interior. And the extra length may also effect handling. Either way there is still testing that would have to be done.

JHRide00 · Dec 20, 2003

V10 all the way... especially since you said they would be the same price, guzzle the same amount of gas.. ect.. ect..

There's no replacement for displacement!

2 more cylinders of fun... Plus just think about slapping a twin turbo on that bad boy like they did to the Hennessi Viper and just imagine the numbers you would be pulling on the dyno.

John

63_Fairlane · Dec 20, 2003

tylers65 said:
So you are saying that the engine made the car slower? It couldn't possibly be the fact that the SN-95 weigh a boat load more than the Fox?

The 96-98 cars are slower than the 94-95 cars. Thats the point! Not only were they not a substantial improvement, they were worse. The 99+ GTS are slightly faster than a 87-93 5.0, but they have 3.27 gears versus 3.08s.

The new cars are realy improved in in steering and brakes and that can only be said of the Cobras, Machs, and Bullits. The stock GTs, even with the rear discs don't carry enough brakes from the factory. The Cobras and Machs produce plenty of power.

There are inherit problems with the 4.6 and any of its subsequent versions as a performance engine, especially as a high winding four valver. Its bore spacing and thus bore is really too small to take full advantage of the high flow characteristics of the four valve heads. It's a basic design flaw.

The engine was originally designed to power the front wheel drive Lincoln Continental. It had to be short to fit between the front wheels so they made the bores a little small and tighted up the bore spacing. Please note that the Continental has been S#$%canned. So we are living with the a design compromise for a front-wheel drive car that is no longer part of Fords line up.

Basically,the 4.6 could have been better. In two valve form, it initially generated the same volumetric output as the old 2.3 Liter four cylinder. An engine that was as old a methuselah.

Can you understand the disapointment??

From 99 on up there has been less to complain about.

awalbert88 · Dec 21, 2003

DBMSTNG said:
since the V10 is based off the 4.6L, it wouldn't be hard for aftermarket companies to create products for the V10. for headers, they'd just have to add one more pipe to each side. underdrive pulleys would be the same. forged internals the same except the crank. throttle bodies are standard Ford issue. cams wouldn't be hard to make. the only problem aftermarket companies would have is heads. and we have that problem now with our V8's that have been out since 96 in the Mustang.

awalbert88: 351ci = 5.8L

SVTdriver: the V10 weighs less than the 03 Cobra motor, so handling would actually be better. crash tests should not be a problem as the frame is designed to take the brunt of the impact and not the engine.

Uh.. I'm well aware of the fact that 351ci is 5.8L. I have no idea what you were replying to by telling me this....

Making headers for a V10 is not necessarily as simple as adding a pipe to each V8 header. Heads are a lot tougher to do (not that there's much of an aftermarket to build off of with regards to heads for the MOD motors anyway...) Cams aren't hard to make, but would still be more expensive for the V10, because it's a longer, more complex motor.

Crash testing is required every time you put a different motor in a vehicle for production, because it changes the weight balance. Yes, the V10 may be lighter than the 03 Cobra motor, but it's longer, so the weight is distributed differently. Having seen firsthand what happens to the front of a Mustang when it sustains a strong front impact, I can asure you that the frame is not the only thing taking a beating. The hood will compress down and in; the bumper covers will fold up (or down, depending on the type of impact), and the radiator will easily be bent in or punctured from the running horse/snake emblem being pushed in. Now, the motor might be untouched, but more than likely the hood will push against it, stressing or damaging front accesories/pullies, and the same for the radiator compression.

Now I can't say how an 05 Mustang will do, but I suspect many of these same things would happen. Keep in mind that my notes above are based on a 20-25mph impact with a telephone pole. Anything faster and the frame will almost certainly bend, rendering the car effectively worthless. Once that happens, the motor will start to obsorb a lot of impact, and slam into the firewall. With the V6 or even the 4.6 V8, there's still a good bit of room for the motor to move in the event of a severe impact. You don't want it to smack into the firewall that easily, because it could puncture it, causing the car to fail collision testing.

Again, I don't know how the 05 would do, because I've yet to see under the hood of the final production version.

DBMSTNG · Dec 21, 2003

awalbert88 said:
Uh.. I'm well aware of the fact that 351ci is 5.8L. I have no idea what you were replying to by telling me this....

you were talking about a 5.0L V12, i misunderstood what you were trying to say.

awalbert88 said:
Making headers for a V10 is not necessarily as simple as adding a pipe to each V8 header.

making headers is one of the easiest parts of an automobile to make. all you need is tubing, a machine to bend it, a mill, some sheet metal, and some welding equipment.

awalbert88 said:
Heads are a lot tougher to do (not that there's much of an aftermarket to build off of with regards to heads for the MOD motors anyway...)

the head isn't any harder than a V8 head. for the Boss 351, the Ford engineers used the same architecture as the Cobra R head and added on more set of valves.

awalbert88 said:
Cams aren't hard to make, but would still be more expensive for the V10, because it's a longer, more complex motor.

more expensive, sure. more comlpex, not at all. the extra cylinder has the same lobes as the other cylinders, just at a different rotation angle.

awalbert88 said:
Crash testing is required every time you put a different motor in a vehicle for production, because it changes the weight balance. Yes, the V10 may be lighter than the 03 Cobra motor, but it's longer, so the weight is distributed differently.

the added weight of the intercooler on the 03 Cobra should easily negate any difference the added weight of 2 cylinders would produce forward of the wheels. you are only talking about 4 extra inches here. not that significant. weight distribution will be slightly closer to the optimal 50/50 than the 03 Cobra.

awalbert88 said:
Having seen firsthand what happens to the front of a Mustang when it sustains a strong front impact, I can asure you that the frame is not the only thing taking a beating. The hood will compress down and in; the bumper covers will fold up (or down, depending on the type of impact), and the radiator will easily be bent in or punctured from the running horse/snake emblem being pushed in. Now, the motor might be untouched, but more than likely the hood will push against it, stressing or damaging front accesories/pullies, and the same for the radiator compression.

and what do you think happens to the intercooler on a 03 Cobra in a frontal collision? it could easily be pushed into the front of the motor.

awalbert88 said:
Now I can't say how an 05 Mustang will do, but I suspect many of these same things would happen. Keep in mind that my notes above are based on a 20-25mph impact with a telephone pole. Anything faster and the frame will almost certainly bend, rendering the car effectively worthless. Once that happens, the motor will start to obsorb a lot of impact, and slam into the firewall. With the V6 or even the 4.6 V8, there's still a good bit of room for the motor to move in the event of a severe impact. You don't want it to smack into the firewall that easily, because it could puncture it, causing the car to fail collision testing.

Again, I don't know how the 05 would do, because I've yet to see under the hood of the final production version.

again, the engine would only be another 4" longer. people have stuffed 6.8L V10's in stangs without a problem. the DOHC 351 is to a 4.6L DOHC as a 5.4L SOHC is to the 6.8L DOHC.

SVTdriver · Dec 21, 2003

Sure anyone can add whatever engine they want. That does not get it past safety testing. Yes the intercooler could be pushed into the engine. But the intercooler can break a little easier than a motor block.

kirkyg · Dec 22, 2003

Its going to have to be a real accident frontal collision with good force to bend the frame enough to make contact with the engine. I dont know if you've looked in our engine bays recently from right in front of the engine. But there is a huge gap there and from what it looks like its going to take the frame bending to force the fan/radiator area into the front accessories of the engine.

kirkyg

awalbert88 · Dec 22, 2003

kirkyg said:
Its going to have to be a real accident frontal collision with good force to bend the frame enough to make contact with the engine. I dont know if you've looked in our engine bays recently from right in front of the engine. But there is a huge gap there and from what it looks like its going to take the frame bending to force the fan/radiator area into the front accessories of the engine.

kirkyg

It doesn't take much at all for the radiator to bump the front accessories even on a V6 (which has a rediculous amount of room to spare). The frame doesn't have to get bent for that to happen. When everything gets compressed, that free space is going to go bye-bye very quick.

I can convert a Festiva to a mid-rear layout with a 500+ cuin V8 if I really want to, but it's not going to pass crash testing as a production vehicle. What you can do to your own vehicle and what can be done with a production vehicle are very different.

SVTdriver · Dec 22, 2003

kirkyg said:
Its going to have to be a real accident frontal collision with good force to bend the frame enough to make contact with the engine. I dont know if you've looked in our engine bays recently from right in front of the engine. But there is a huge gap there and from what it looks like its going to take the frame bending to force the fan/radiator area into the front accessories of the engine.

kirkyg

Then by your own admission of the motor being 4 inches longer. That makes it easier to hit the motor with anything on the front end. Which again goes to collision damage absorbtion ability.

yellow5.0cobra · Dec 22, 2003

You guys are having such a rediculous argument.

Have you looked into any CHRYSLER engine bays?

ANY other car BESIDES a MUSTANG?

They have NEXT TO NOTHING in room near the radiator support.

Lets NOT FORGET this is on a NEW chassis, whatever chassis you have imagined in your head, stop thinking about it. We dont know how it looks like or what kind of room there is and whatnot.

So, STOP.

Ohio 1989GT · Dec 22, 2003

yellow5.0cobra said:
You guys are having such a rediculous argument.

Have you looked into any CHRYSLER engine bays?

ANY other car BESIDES a MUSTANG?

They have NEXT TO NOTHING in room near the radiator support.

Lets NOT FORGET this is on a NEW chassis, whatever chassis you have imagined in your head, stop thinking about it. We dont know how it looks like or what kind of room there is and whatnot.

So, STOP.

You guys just got

AROD357 · Dec 27, 2003

posm6s said:
If its something like the 351/5.8L V-10 that people talked about a month or so ago, then yeah it would be sweet. Imagine a stupid little F-body wanting some, 2 extra cylinders=no contest.

Though, the S/C would also be nice to have.

Put the two together and theres heaven.

Well of course a regular F-body would be no competition but if you pare it up against a car in the same class like the ZL1 camaro that puts out 600 HP with only a 427 CI V8 and not a V10 then that would be a different story...

I think Ford should go with the V8 5.4 DOHC just my .02$ it would sound way better than a V-10. I once heard a Viper being dynoed it sounded like a 4 cylinder... even though it was puttin out more than 700 HP... what a joke...

Ron Jeremy · Dec 27, 2003

Screw the V-10. Keep the price of the Mustang and Cobra Mustang reasonable and affordable. If you guys are that stupid and want to spend $45K-$60K just for a car with a V-10 engine in it go buy yourselves a C6 Corvette. I'm sick and tired of people wanting things to be put on the Mustang that are unreasonable which will make this particular car VERY UNAFFORDABLE to many people in here. The Mustang is good enough the way it is. Keep it affordable and reasonably priced. Don't make the Mustang become as expensive as the Corvette all because you want some stupid V-10 engine in it or all because you want IRS or a 5.0L in it. Don't you people in here understand that if you start asking for all this stuff that the Mustang will become as expensive and unaffordable like the Corvette. What the hell is the matter with everyone in here? You must all be young 18 year olds with unpopped cherries who are living at home with no clue about cost accounting and finance. If you weren't, you wouldn't be asking for the new Mustang to have all this expensive BS in it. Get real, grow up and wake up. All this stuff that you are asking for to be put in the new 2005 Mustang costs BIG MONEY and will cause the Mustang to cost over $45K-$60K. Be more realistic. The Mustang is NOT a Corvette and it should NEVER be compared to it or even cost like one. Please understand this.

Z28x · Dec 27, 2003

AROD357 - The Ford 5.8L V10 doesn't sound the same as the old 8.0L Viper V10

Ron Jeremy - The 5.8L V10 would be just about as reasonable as a S/C DOHC 5.4L V8. I agree with you on price, if it is going to ccost over $45K then Ford shouldn't even bother.

AROD357 · Dec 28, 2003

Z28x said:
AROD357 - The Ford 5.8L V10 doesn't sound the same as the old 8.0L Viper V10

Ron Jeremy - The 5.8L V10 would be just about as reasonable as a S/C DOHC 5.4L V8. I agree with you on price, if it is going to ccost over $45K then Ford shouldn't even bother.

It still will not sound like the V8 because of the extra cylinders it will have a lower tone than a V8

and seriously to even consider that Ford would put this in the regular Mustang GT is extremely over-rated and would never happen...if anything it would be built as a limited production like the Cobra R... but would not likely see production becuase of the succes that Ford has had with forced induction...

Ron Jeremy · Dec 28, 2003

I'm glad that you agree with me about this. The last thing that we all need is for the Mustang GT to cost $40K-$50K.

SVTdriver · Dec 28, 2003

AROD357 said:
Well of course a regular F-body would be no competition but if you pare it up against a car in the same class like the ZL1 camaro that puts out 600 HP with only a 427 CI V8 and not a V10 then that would be a different story...
...

Actually if yu break it down to displacement it is the same class. Both are 350.

Z28x · Dec 28, 2003

AROD357 said:
and seriously to even consider that Ford would put this in the regular Mustang GT is extremely over-rated and would never happen...if anything it would be built as a limited production like the Cobra R... but would not likely see production becuase of the succes that Ford has had with forced induction...

It would never go into a GT, GT is entry level performance.

If a V10 is ever made it would be in the Cobra, Shelby, or Cobra R

351CJ · Dec 28, 2003

He guys, how about a little more focus on logic & the facts instead of emotion?

The 6.8L V8 engine is an option on the F-250 at a cost of ONLY $600 more than the 5.4L V8. It is also an option on the E-350 at a cost of only $800 more than the 5.4L V8!

There is no way a V10 would cost $10K more than a V8 in a Mustang. I'm sure that the 6.8L V10 is going to be switched over to 3V heads eventually, so 3V head castings will be availble at resonable cost. There are rumors that the new Lincon Continental will have an option for a 5.8L V10 engine, so now you have the block too. One it's in production a V10, SOHC 3 valve engine will probably cost less to manufacture than the 4.6L, DOHC, SC Cobra engine and with an aluminum block, which the Continental will use, it will weigh less than the iron block Cobra SC engine.

As far as the exhuast sound goes, this was already extensively discussed. The Viper V10 sounds bad because there is not an X or H pipe on it. So what you hear is 2 separate 5 cyl engines. With an X or H a V10 can sound great. Go back earlier in this thread and find the link to the V10 Mustang 1/4 mile run video and try to tell me that the V10 Stang does not sound awesome!

i4power · Dec 31, 2003

351CJ said:
He guys, how about a little more focus on logic & the facts instead of emotion?

The 6.8L V8 engine is an option on the F-250 at a cost of ONLY $600 more than the 5.4L V8. It is also an option on the E-350 at a cost of only $800 more than the 5.4L V8!

There is no way a V10 would cost $10K more than a V8 in a Mustang. I'm sure that the 6.8L V10 is going to be switched over to 3V heads eventually, so 3V head castings will be availble at resonable cost. There are rumors that the new Lincon Continental will have an option for a 5.8L V10 engine, so now you have the block too. One it's in production a V10, SOHC 3 valve engine will probably cost less to manufacture than the 4.6L, DOHC, SC Cobra engine and with an aluminum block, which the Continental will use, it will weigh less than the iron block Cobra SC engine.

As far as the exhuast sound goes, this was already extensively discussed. The Viper V10 sounds bad because there is not an X or H pipe on it. So what you hear is 2 separate 5 cyl engines. With an X or H a V10 can sound great. Go back earlier in this thread and find the link to the V10 Mustang 1/4 mile run video and try to tell me that the V10 Stang does not sound awesome!

Seriously, people are blowing this out of proportion. The 5.8L V10 is basically a 4.6L V8 with two extra cylinders!!!! There is NO WAY a Mustang with a 430rwhp V10 will cost $50,000!!!! No, it will NOT weigh more!!!! From 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords: it weighs 90lbs less than the Cobra V8. FYI, the group that assembled this engine were on a LOW BUDGET. Also, the engine is quite reliable, as they've been driving around with it for over a year.

351CJ: The 5.8L V10 is an entirely different V10 than the 6.8L V10 from the trucks. They can't use the heads, so they basically took the Cobra R castings and glued on two more combustion chambers, valves, etc.

The sound is AWESOME. I can post the V10 file now, so you all can hear it. It sounds like nothing i've ever heard, and I can't stop playing it over and over again, just to hear it. I'll try to post the file on my site so you can hear it.

Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?