Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?

Joe 5.0 · Dec 5, 2003

You beat me to it Ohio.

I was the one who took the videos, so I have a firsthand perspective on how it sounded. Trust me, it was loud and sounded badass, and it had FULL EXHAUST. I cant imagine what it would sound like without cats and some muffs.

I'd like to see the Cobra with a SC 5.4L DOHC and an optional V10 DOHC making about 50hp over the V8.

Z28x · Dec 5, 2003

SVTdriver said:
But the post you responded to said they have always had V8's ot that they have "only" had V8's

They still would have V8's.. but they would also have V10 and V6s

base : 250HP V6
GT : 310HP V8
Mach 1 : 375HP V8
Cobra : 450HP V10

Whats is so wrong with that line up?

skywarp · Dec 5, 2003

Bingo we have a winner.

SVTdriver · Dec 5, 2003

Ok i guess I should agree with you in some sense. Since this thread is about the cobra. Yes they should stop making V6 cobras. And as soon as you get me the name of the dealer that tried to sell you one. I personally will write Ford and complain about that dealer. Now you are right about the best selling mustang not being a V8. But the V8 is the mustang's largest motor. An always has been. From the poll here. It seems to me that a majority want the V8. Maybe they feel a V10 isa little too exotic for a stang. Or that it should stick to the heritage I just mentioned. Or maybe they don't believe Ford could or would do a V10 that was the same price as a S/CV8. And have it the same or lower weight. Sure they could do aluminum. But if you shop around aluminum engines are considerbly more expensive than an iron engine. To mention the dodge V10 just proves y point. Until this year it was in a $70k viper. Now it's in a $45k truck. Both considerably more expensive than a $35k cobra. The Z06 is at least as bad in price difference.

rhumbline · Dec 5, 2003

V8? Naw, been there, done that.
V10? Viper's already got the cache on that.

So how about...

V12?

Crazy? Probably, but what the hell, why not have a little fun on these forums But here are some rationales:

Heritage: Every Mustang once had a V12 -- the P-51 Mustang that is. If you want heritage, then let's go all the way back to the Mustang's namesake.

Availability: Ford has already engineered Duratec-based V12s as seen in various show cars and even in their Aston Martins, though that version is highly modified and hand built.

Cost: As per the above, the engineering has basically been done and could, for the vast majority of its parts, use off the shelf Duratec pieces, which would be good not only for initial affordability, but also stocking replacement parts for dealerships.

Power: Even just scaling up Duratec specific outputs, you would get a 400hp 5.0 (2 x 2.5 Contour SVT's 200hp) or a 480hp 6.0 (2 x Jag 3.0's 240hp). Either of these specific outputs could readily be increased to get well over 500 in the 6.0, naturally aspirated.

Sound: For anyone who has heard a V12 with a good exhaust system, I need say no more, an uncanny symphony of silken refinement and commanding raw power. A foreboding Grizzly growl at idle, a banshee wail in the midrange and a spine tingling shriek of the Valkeries at redline ... must be heard to believe. http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/sound/v12e.wav (and this clip hardly captures the full richness and range of a V12 sound.)

Size/Weight: Not sure of this, but the Duratec based V12's are all AL and, if I can recall, reasonably compact and light, probably on par with the V10 Mod motor.

Other: The ethereal, turbine smoothness and Kansas plains power/torque curve are something to be experienced, the surreal smoothness gives a real iron fist in a velvet glove demeanor. And again, the distinction for a higher-end Cobra -- Vette's already got a V8, the Viper the V10, what's left for Ford to set apart the Cobra?

Admittedly, this is fairly pie-in-the-sky, but it would certainly give Ford and the Mustang a huge distinction in terms of being the first truly mass market V12, which would echo Ford's intent with the original flat head V8 being the first V8 for the masses -- how's that for some more heritage?

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

If the mach was 375 hp and could easily be supercharged noone is going to buy the cobra...and with a v10 its going end up costing a considerable amount more than the current ones are being sold for...so more reason they wouldn't sell.

kirkyg

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

Since we are talking strictly about the COBRA....

In 1963 Carroll Shelby made the Cobra name famous by cramming a 260ci SBF into an AC Ace body.

If everyone wants to keep up with the whole heritage argument, then there really should be no Mustang Cobra. The Cobra is a 2 seat roadster and is not a Ford vehicle.

Ford has NEVER put a supercharger on a Mustang from the Factory. Again, we can thank Mr. Shelby for the earliest S/C'd Mustangs. So if we are sticking with heritage, than this entire thread is pointless and moot.

If you cannot have a V-10 due to heritage, than you can't have a S/C either.

Everyone else wants to argue that the V-10 sounds crappy. But no one here that has said that has actually HEARD the 351 V-10.

Then the rest say that there will be no aftermarket for the V-10 and if there becomes an aftermarket, it will be too expensive. Funny, the whole world seemed to be crying about the exact same thing when the 4.6 came out. Boo hoo, there won't be an aftermarket for the 4.6, then if there is it will be too spendy. I'm never buying a Mustang again. But now everyone is crying about a V-10 that probably won't see production anyway.

Just like the speculation and resulting crying about the 2005 in general. Why doesn't everyone grab a tissue, wipe away the tears and wait to actually SEE the proof that any of these things are REALLY going to happen? Then, if you still don't like it, buy a different car and move on with your life...

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Um the reason people were boohooing before was because they were afraid of change. The reason they are boohooing about a v10 in a cobra is because #1 it'll be low production and the aftermarket will be extremely limited, making it a v10 will also contribute to aftermarket companies hesitation to make aftermarket products. What you'll end up with is a slightly better aftermarket than the viper v10...because its a hand made engine.

Compare that to a DOHC engine that shares the mod motor setup with other v8 engines making parts easier to produce and involves less R&D to develop encouraging aftermarket manufacturers to make parts for the DOHC cobra and the SOHC GT.

kirkyg

Sir Hacksalot · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
You can forget a throaty sounding exhaust...have you heard a viper before?

Yeah, I have heard a Viper before...as he was leaving me in the dust.

Hax

skywarp · Dec 5, 2003

Whether or not the Cobra is designed by Shelby or SVT the car should have the V-10. If the car can make 430rwhp that would probably be more than enough out of the box. Modified Cobras make this now. Let the Mach1 get the V-8 and let the Cobra become the high end car. GM keeps putting horsepower in cars,so why shouldn't Ford. To go from 390 to 450 may not be enough to compete with some "cars".

gp001 · Dec 5, 2003

tylers65 said:
Just like the speculation and resulting crying about the 2005 in general. Why doesn't everyone grab a tissue, wipe away the tears and wait to actually SEE the proof that any of these things are REALLY going to happen? Then, if you still don't like it, buy a different car and move on with your life...

Isn't that why it's the "Fantasy Forum" ?

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Um the reason people were boohooing before was because they were afraid of change. The reason they are boohooing about a v10 in a cobra is because #1 it'll be low production and the aftermarket will be extremely limited, making it a v10 will also contribute to aftermarket companies hesitation to make aftermarket products. What you'll end up with is a slightly better aftermarket than the viper v10...because its a hand made engine.
kirkyg

You just proved one of my points.

tylers65 said:
Then the rest say that there will be no aftermarket for the V-10 and if there becomes an aftermarket, it will be too expensive. Funny, the whole world seemed to be crying about the exact same thing when the 4.6 came out. Boo hoo, there won't be an aftermarket for the 4.6, then if there is it will be too spendy. I'm never buying a Mustang again. But now everyone is crying about a V-10 that probably won't see production anyway.

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

gp001 said:
Isn't that why it's the "Fantasy Forum" ?

See sig.

SVTdriver · Dec 5, 2003

Tyler though I do agree with you on some points. I believe the point of no mustang cobras was decided long before SVT developed the Mustang cobra. Cobra jet has been associated with a mustang since the 60's. The mustang 2 had a cobra. And other reasons. So it could be argued that heritage does give it a cobra name. It could also be argued that shelby gave the roadster the "cobra"name. But the mustang is a "Mustang Cobra". It should also be pointed out that in the early 80's some mustangs did come with turbo's which is a form of forced induction. Sure it was not a S/C. But it was forced induction. I am not arguing that the V10 sounds like crap. Me main reason is simpy trickle down. With the Cobra being a V8 4.6 there is trickle down. Just look at the mach1. The more 4.6 motors out there. The more chance for a stronger aftermarket. Especially along cobra lines. If ford stops the S/C 4.6 the there is a possibility that a lot of DOHC developement will stop. Simpy because the mach1 market is not that strong right now. And may or may not ever be.

As for the V10 developing 430hp. Given Fords new cammer motor that arguement can be thrown away. It is going into production as a crate motor. Safety test for it in a mustang should be identical to other 4.6 motors. And it encourages an aftermarket for that motor and for future cobra motors.

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

SVTdriver said:
Tyler though I do agree with you on some points. I believe the point of no mustang cobras was decided long before SVT developed the Mustang cobra. Cobra jet has been associated with a mustang since the 60's. The mustang 2 had a cobra. And other reasons. So it could be argued that heritage does give it a cobra name. It could also be argued that shelby gave the roadster the "cobra"name. But the mustang is a "Mustang Cobra". It should also be pointed out that in the early 80's some mustangs did come with turbo's which is a form of forced induction. Sure it was not a S/C. But it was forced induction. I am not arguing that the V10 sounds like crap. Me main reason is simpy trickle down. With the Cobra being a V8 4.6 there is trickle down. Just look at the mach1. The more 4.6 motors out there. The more chance for a stronger aftermarket. Especially along cobra lines. If ford stops the S/C 4.6 the there is a possibility that a lot of DOHC developement will stop. Simpy because the mach1 market is not that strong right now. And may or may not ever be.

As for the V10 developing 430hp. Given Fords new cammer motor that arguement can be thrown away. It is going into production as a crate motor. Safety test for it in a mustang should be identical to other 4.6 motors. And it encourages an aftermarket for that motor and for future cobra motors.

Well said and very good points.
I will concede to the fact that the Cobra name has been a part of the Mustang'g heritage. However, a limited run of turbo 4 bangers in the mid 80's (In my view) does not mean that superchargers are part of the cars heritage.

I do agree that there really is no point in making a 430HP V-10 when they have a 420HP cammer 5.0 that has already been developed.

I am very nuetral regarding whether or not they put a V-10 or a V-8 in the car. I have mixed feelings about it either way. But Sometimes it gets really old watching Chicken Little proclaim that the sky is falling.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Tyler from your post i thought you were mocking those who where nasayers when the 4.6L was about to come out and comparing it directly to how it will be if the v10 were put in the cobra. If indeed thats the case i didn't prove anything you said. I pointed out that there is a difference between those who are naysaying now about a v10 (including my self) and those 5.0 guys who didn't want the 4.6L.

kirkyg

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Tyler from your post i thought you were mocking those who where nasayers when the 4.6L was about to come out and comparing it directly to how it will be if the v10 were put in the cobra. If indeed thats the case i didn't prove anything you said. I pointed out that there is a difference between those who are naysaying now about a v10 (including my self) and those 5.0 guys who didn't want the 4.6L.

kirkyg

Show me how it is any different then.

Um the reason people were boohooing before was because they were afraid of change.

See no difference now with the V-10 or then with the 4.6

The reason they are boohooing about a v10 in a cobra is because #1 it'll be low production and the aftermarket will be extremely limited, making it a v10 will also contribute to aftermarket companies hesitation to make aftermarket products. What you'll end up with is a slightly better aftermarket than the viper v10...because its a hand made engine.
kirkyg

Hello, the COBRA is a low production car. That is like saying the 2003 shouldn't have forged internals because the rest of them don't and it makes the engine low production. The EXACT same thing was said about the aftermarket regarding the 4.6. Because it was a "modular" engine and blah blah blah there would NEVER be a good aftermarket for it

SVTdriver · Dec 5, 2003

tylers65 said:
Well said and very good points.
I will concede to the fact that the Cobra name has been a part of the Mustang'g heritage. However, a limited run of turbo 4 bangers in the mid 80's (In my view) does not mean that superchargers are part of the cars heritage.

While I am not sure about the actual numbers there were other turbo'd 4's than the svo. Although I believe they may actually be more rare than the svo.

I am very nuetral regarding whether or not they put a V-10 or a V-8 in the car. I have mixed feelings about it either way. But Sometimes it gets really old watching Chicken Little proclaim that the sky is falling.

congratultions. I've been at that point for a while now. I'm not necessarily against a V10. Just against the possible implications. Cost/weight. And though they could build a v10 and did in the test car. that does not mean the real developement has been done. IE safety crash testing handling and stability,etc. Sure some of the tet could be performed by the v10 alreadyin the stang. But it would add cost to the developement. From what i saw the V10 was merely a proposal for doing such a car. And I have not seen anything yet on all that had tobe done to the car to make it fit.

I do have to disagree with you on the aftermarket for the 4.6 though. But if you can show me edelbrock or other aftermarket heads and intakes then I might change my mind. But until that point it seems that the aftermarket is fairly small so far. With frpp being that largest supplier.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

tyler, dude come on. IF they make the cobra a v10 the aftermarket WILL suck. Some say the 4.6L aftermarket still sucks...although its better than most vehicles. the DOHC and SOHC's are not designed identically but they are both mod motors and bolt on interchangeably etc. The point is that when you go to a v10 you WILL increase R&D costs...when they can use research already done with mass produced SOHC engines, and further that to develope parts for another v8 with DOHC heads then thats one thing. But taking a totally different engine that nolonger has interchangeable parts
then you can forget low cost. Moreover were talking about 8k production / year at the most.

kirkyg

tylers65 · Dec 5, 2003

The 302 or 5.0 was first put into a production Mustang in 1968. It does however predate it as the 260 and 289.

But in all fairness we will keep this about the 302. It stopped being put into Mustangs in 1995. that is 27 years that the aftermarket had to build parts for it. Again...27 YEARS!

Now just because there are not a lot of aftermarket HEADS for the 4.6 means very little in the grand scheem of the entire aftermarket for the 4.6. If there were no aftermarket for the 4.6, then how are people getting 4.6 powered Mustangs to run in the 9's? Does anyone know how long it took to develop aftermarket heads for the 302? I promise it was a lot longer than 8 years.

My major point of my last few posts is simple.

Everyone wants to argue that there should be no V-10. But no one has heard from Ford that there will indeed be a V-10. Even if there was word from Ford to confirm this, the arguments are simple a repatition of the same one 8 years ago when the 4.6 came out.

I simple see a lot of arguments with too many holes in them.

Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?