Yellow brick road to a great Suspension

[DarkBuddha]

Is it worth it to get roller perches but still use OEM arms?
On the same note, is it worth it to get new bushings but still use OEM arms?

Yes and yes. The OEM arms are functional, even if they're not oh-so-cool. They serve the same purpose as expensive tubular arms. The big benefits to aftermarket tubular arms is their ability to incorporate better ball joint angle allowing for lowering and more negative camber. They're also supposed to be more durable. Some are designed to allow for using coil-overs. Otherwise, adding other components like roller perches and poly bushings is perfectly functional with OEM arms.

BTW, did you get to read the stuff I posted? Was it helpful? Just curious...

 

[iamadonut]

I did a quick read through and it is VERY helpful. I can't tell you enough how great it is to have an overview like that instead of learning everything piece by piece. I suggest you put a link to it in your sig so other noobs like myself can benefit.
I plan on reading it more carefully tonight or tomorrow, and from there i'll devise a "plan." When that happens I'll post it to see what you guys think.


I wish I could offer you guys something besides my never ending questions. If you're ever in the LA area I'll buy a couple rounds.

 

[iamadonut]

PS: You live in Seattle DarkBuddha? I grew up on the Eastside and I go up there to visit my family often. I'd love to check out your Mach one of these days...

 

[iamadonut]

If I get replacement OEM upper and lower arms, should I reuse my spindles or get new ones?

 

[usedtobe 67p51d]

'70 spindles are heavy duty unless the car has been hit in the front your fine

 

[DarkBuddha]

67p51d is right on. Unless the spindles are damaged, go ahead and reuse them. They're the heaviest spindles used on vintage Mustangs, and I've never heard of anyone frag'ing one, so you can probably feel pretty confident about them.

 

[66P51GT]

Here's a follow-up question...I know R&P steering is over $1k, but those are all manual steering systems, right? Are there any power R&P systems that will fit without any heavy modifcation to the car? If R&P is too expensive, what do you suggest is the next best thing? Rebuilding the stock system or upgrading to ???

There are power R&P kits available. One is from TCP, the other from Randall's Rack - available at Mustangs Depot.

My alternative is to install a KRC pump with a flow control valve to a stock P/S system. My hope is to fine-tune the steering by varying the flow to the control valve. I picked up the pump, resevoir, and steel braided lines from ebay for ~$150. I will need to make up some custom high pressure hydraulic lines and I'm set. Engine, Tranny, and Suspension should be done in late September. I'll post results when completed.

 

[iamadonut]

Aside from buying a new R&P, what steps can I take to tighten up the steering? Right now I have about 2" of dead play on my steering wheel and the steering is so loose I could steer with my pinky finger if I wanted. Where should I start? Flaming River steering box? (What does a steering box do? )

 

[DarkBuddha]

The stock steering is never going to feel like r&p, but it can be perform pretty well with a good rebuild and some modifications. The thing to remember is that the steering system is indeed a system. It has several components that can all contribute to lousy feel and response. A good suspension rebuild with new tie rods and idler arm can make a good bit of difference. Beyond that, if you've got power steering, rebuilding those components is a must. Next would either be a steering box rebuild or a new box from Flaming River. You might also consider a roller bearing kit for the idler arm (from Cobra Automotive), and the Shelby quick steer kit if you've got manual steering. I've heard really good things about both of those.

Here is how I would proceed... first, climb under the car and have someone turn the wheel and watch for spots in the system where there is flex or looseness. I found the bushing on my idler arm was worn and was allowing over an inch of steering wheel movement before wheels started moving. I replaced that bushing with a custom poly bushing and was immediately rewarded with better steering response.

Next, I would adjust the steering box. Consult the Ford manual or a Haynes manual for the procedure. I will say there is the "correct" way and the basic "good enough" way. I chose the latter and haven't had any problems. This also took out another 1/2 inch of steering wheel play. I now have about 3/4 inch of wheel play, which isn't bad at all.

My next project is getting some feel back to the stock power steering system. I've already added the polyurethane rag joint in the steering couple, plus poly bushing throughout the system and suspension have helped. But I've been planning on adding an adjustable pressure control valve like 66P51GT mentioned. There was an article in Fabulous Fords magazine back in the early '90s (or was it the late '80s?) that showed how to do this. I'm actually surprised no magazine has repeated this since. By all accounts it made a significant difference in the amount of feel added back to the system. Makes me think all those aftermarket suspension/steering companies are conspiring with the magazines to get us to buy their stuff rather than giving us inexpensive DIY options. Hell, it seems every tech article in Mustang and Fords is nothing but big ad for some company's product.

Anyway, hope this helps a bit...

 

[66P51GT]

But I've been planning on adding an adjustable pressure control valve like 66P51GT mentioned. There was an article in Fabulous Fords magazine back in the early '90s (or was it the late '80s?) that showed how to do this.

I'd be interested to see the article. However, All I think is necessary from a DIY perspective is making the high-pressure and return hydraulic lines from the pump to the control valve to the resevoir.

I like the idea of the roller idler arm. Cobra Automotive does warn that you don't get the return to center feeleing as you do with stock rubber bushings. I'm willing to sacrifice this for better steering response. Adding caster will also help the return-to-center feeling.

Another thing to consider if you have lowered your car is to install Pro Motorsports bump steer correction kit. An added benefit is it modifies the outer tie-rod mount point to quickening steering ratio. A plus with power steering.

 

[DarkBuddha]

I'd be interested to see the article. However, All I think is necessary from a DIY perspective is making the high-pressure and return hydraulic lines from the pump to the control valve to the resevoir.

I like the idea of the roller idler arm. Cobra Automotive does warn that you don't get the return to center feeleing as you do with stock rubber bushings. I'm willing to sacrifice this for better steering response. Adding caster will also help the return-to-center feeling.

Another thing to consider if you have lowered your car is to install Pro Motorsports bump steer correction kit. An added benefit is it modifies the outer tie-rod mount point to quickening steering ratio. A plus with power steering.

Wow, sounds like we're on the same path. I'd forgotten that bit about the roller bearing idler not returning to center. That would bug me on a street car. And I'm already planning on adding the Pro-motorsports bump steer correction kit. I'm basically trying to do everything to improve the stock system.

BTW, I was just thinking it was Mustang Illustrated that had the article. I've got it somewhere in a box at my parents' place, but I won't see them until the holidays I think. Anyway, as I recall, it wasn't very complicated; they just got a standard adjustable hydralic valve for like $15 and plumbed it in the pressure line. Simple but effective. If I ever do find the article, I'll scan it and post it for everybody.

 

[66P51GT]

Wow, sounds like we're on the same path.

Yes it does. I'd be interested to hear how yours turns out if you get yours on teh street before me.

Anyway, as I recall, it wasn't very complicated; they just got a standard adjustable hydralic valve for like $15 and plumbed it in the pressure line. Simple but effective.

I didn't know these were available. If I didn't need to replace my power steering pump, I would have gone this route.

 

[BobV]

iamadonut -
Here's some more reading for you: http://www.gt350clone.com/suspension1.htm

As you've found, there's multiple answers to your question, depending on what YOU want the car to do, as well as your budget.

 

[LMan]

Yes it does. I'd be interested to hear how yours turns out if you get yours on teh street before me.
I didn't know these were available. If I didn't need to replace my power steering pump, I would have gone this route.

I have seen this article. Essentially M&F spliced a checkvalve b/w the pressure and return lines of the p/s pump, and then adjusted the valve to regulate the amount of fluid going to/coming from the pump. This 'deadened' the overassisted feel of the p/s to taste. Interesting idea, although I dont think it has Flaming River quaking in their boots, so to speak

 

[iamadonut]

BobV -- thanks for the link. That's some great info.

What do you guys think about the PST front end and super front end kits?
Is the super kit worth the extra $340?
Should I just stick with getting the polygraphite bushings from PST and the rest of the parts elsewhere? I've decided to just replace my A-arms with OEM arms (and maybe box them). The tubular are too much and I don't think I need *that* much performance for my daily driver.

 

[66P51GT]

BobV -- thanks for the link. That's some great info.

What do you guys think about the PST front end and super front end kits?
Is the super kit worth the extra $340?
Should I just stick with getting the polygraphite bushings from PST and the rest of the parts elsewhere? I've decided to just replace my A-arms with OEM arms (and maybe box them). The tubular are too much and I don't think I need *that* much performance for my daily driver.

I'd keep rubber in these two locations:
* 2 POLYGRAPHITE® Lower Control Arm Bushings
* 2 POLYGRAPHITE® Strut Rod Bushings
There are accounts that poly strut rod bushings can break the strut rods.

$.02

 

[iamadonut]

I'll keep that into consideration.
How bout the rest of the package? Is that a decent deal?

 

[DarkBuddha]

As I said on my website spiel, I'm in disagreement regarding urethane at the strut rod. I had polygraphite bushings on the strut rods of my Mach for near 5 years of abusive daily driving, without incident. I think it's a reasonable and worthwile mod, but I also think I want to upgrade to adjustable tubular strut rods eventually.

As for PST's stuff, I'm a big fan. It performs as advertised, and it's been super durable. After years of daily driving, the bushings showed little, if any wear. Considering the big kit comes with UCAs, LCAs, tie rods, and an idler arm, I think it's a reasonable deal. You could probably do it slightly cheap piecing it all together, but after all the time, effort, extra shipping, etc., you probably won't be saving much. There is something to be said for one stop shopping.

BTW, BobV, I've said before, and I'll say it again: nice car, nice website.