NA 351 or S/C 302?

[Pokageek]

oh ... trick flows, edelbrocks, afrs, canfields, ... they are all alot better than stock E7s. even GT40 heads

see what people have up for sale.

i did way too much all at once, and that is one reason why i am still not on the road. that is why i now think breaking it up into smaller pieces is a good approach.

EXACTLY. This was part of my problem. Don't do TOO many things at once. But Chad, you can pm me anytime and I will help any fellow stangnetter to avoid my same pitfalls. I prob should make a quick list of what to watch for..

 

[S351Saleen77]

My vote would be N/A 351 also I don't think I surprised anybody on this one!


You have bottom end power that makes it nice for a driver without waiting for the boost to come on.

 

[Black Stampede]

Your T5 could very well hold up until you are good and ready to replace it with something else, but it could also have a synchro go, or maybe even bend splines on the input shaft, there is just no way to tell.

It's best to look at things for the purpose. You aren't going to put in a more powerful motor to lug the thing around everywhere at 1/4 throttle. You're going to give it hell, aren't you?

I don't want to deter you from your plans (I hope to see you put a 351 in...), but I hope you also realize the potential for problems.

If you were going to rebuild the rear end, it would be a good time to take some of that money and go 31 spline. That's what most of us do when upgrading the rear. You just need a differential, a set of gears, and some axles. I believe you can also purchase fully loaded carriers, but that would be up to you. Someone could give you more accurate pricing than me.

It's amazing how quickly a lot ($6k) of money can go but to me it's all worth it.

Not to sound rude, but you are going off the deep end about the tranny. His tranny will be COMPLETELY fine unless he drives it like a complete animal and even then it will probably have a good year or two. I know multiple people who ran t-5s on 500 rwhp cars and they last a year or two before they went. And my car will be making the same power and im sticking with the t-5. Just dont rile him up over nothing. 350 rwhp on a t-5 is NOT bad at all.

 

[The O.G.]

are u a good mechanic ? eec tuning?
you staying fuel injected, going carb?

what about a healthy hci 302 with a bit of compresion,small shot nos ?

just thinkng

 

[HGFireHazard]

Not to sound rude, but you are going off the deep end about the tranny. His tranny will be COMPLETELY fine unless he drives it like a complete animal and even then it will probably have a good year or two. I know multiple people who ran t-5s on 500 rwhp cars and they last a year or two before they went. And my car will be making the same power and im sticking with the t-5. Just dont rile him up over nothing. 350 rwhp on a t-5 is NOT bad at all.

Talk about mis-information

Just because you're choosing to stick with the T5 with similar power as he may make doesn't mean it's the right choice.

The T5 has a rating of 300 for torque for a reason; that's what it can handle. When you go above that torque rating you're playing with a bomb that doesn't have a timer. Sure, it's possible his T5 could last until he is ready to replace it with something better (and I already said that in a previous post), but that isn't a guarantee.

350 tq at the wheels with 15% drive line loss is a little over 410 ft lbs coming from the engine. You have to remember transmission specs come from the motor.

So at over 100 ft lbs of torque over the maximum recommended specs... I don't think I was 'riling him up over nothing'.

I didn't put a supercharger on my car to go 1/4 throttle all the time. Anytime someone uses the argument of 'if they don't drive it like an animal' or something similar when it comes to power mods and breaking other things they sound a little off in my book. If you plan on stepping down on that gas pedal once you're already asking for it.

I'm not telling the guy he needs to put a T56 in or else he'll die, but I want him to realize the potential is there for him to blow the transmission. I'm just trying to be realistic. I don't think any of us like to put any money into our cars, have something break, and then just sit there and stare at it while we try and scrounge up more money to fix what we broke.

 

[Chads95GT]

yeah im a decent mechanic. i will send the block out to get it checked or and cleaned up and have the cam bearings and freeze plugs installed, but then i will do the assembly of the engine.

it will be staying fuel injected, as far as tuning goes, im a bit sketchy on that. i understand how everything works, so i thought about getting a tweecer and reading up on it. i would like to get a dyno tune with a chip burned, but i dont know of anyone in my area that can do that.

i thought about the 302 with HCI, but i think it will fall a bit short in my HP goal. and i dont want to mess with nitrous, cause then i will always have to refill the bottle. i want the power to be there all the time, know what i mean?

 

[viridionplague]

351 is a sweet way to go, you need alot of extra stuff but you come out with a better all around motor and a decent looking hood to boot.

i recomend doing the rear end to 31 spline, for a few reasons, being that your going to be putting down decent numbers, piece of mind, how many miles do you have on your differential already? plus it gives you a chance to put in a different gear ratio while your there and that will be another boost.

just a few reasons to do the rear

as for the trans i think it will be ok as long as your not revving it up and dropping the clutch, as its usualy the sudden shock going through the system.

t-56's are only rated at 310 torque anyways ?

laws of physics and laws of motion and such, its alot more forgiving if you ease into it rather than the sudden jolt.

this reason is why i shy away from N2O because of the sudden jolt it offers to the system vs any other kind of power adder

 

[Venom351R]

The rear end and the transmission are not MUST DO'S right from the get go. I was running 28 splines and a T5 on my 95 GT ( 302 w/ a Paxton SC) and taking it to the track. Would it have lasted forever?? No course not. I know you dont want to much on your plate all at once so just concentrate on the motor for now and getting that bought put in and running good. As long as your not doing 5,000 RPM dumps of the clutch with MT ET Streets ( or something simmilar) then you wont be snapping stuff just from driving around with it. Of course your going to want to get on it and have fun but the rear tires will break loose before anything in your trans or rear end lets go. Im running Moser 31 Splines and a Tremmec 3550 and at the end of the drag season I was doing 4,000 RPM dumps w/ MT ET Streets and it held up fine.

 

[Pokageek]

T-56's have several ratings IIRC. I just went ahead and coughed up the cash on the trans when I went big c.i. I didn't want to have to worry about it..then again I put down 415RWTQ,...BEFORE putting on the good intake, lol. The guys at the dyno told me my rwhp was off by at least 80 with that PP intake. It's not bad for a 302 or 351 tho.

I am curious, what do you need to convert to 31 spline? Thanks guys!

EDIT: PA! Dude, call SGS automotive! They are the BEST! I travel an hour + because they are just that good.

 

[Chads95GT]

pokageek, where is SGS automotive located? im near pittsburgh. they did your tune i take it? did u get a chip burned? and i will definately pm once i get into the fine details with this swap.

i would also like to know what it takes to convert to 31 spline rear.

another quick question about the swap, what did u guys do for the fuel rails? did u use them off the parts truck u got the motor from or buy new ones?

 

[HGFireHazard]

If you were going to rebuild the rear end, it would be a good time to take some of that money and go 31 spline. That's what most of us do when upgrading the rear. You just need a differential, a set of gears, and some axles. I believe you can also purchase fully loaded carriers, but that would be up to you. Someone could give you more accurate pricing than me.
it.

If you like the traction lok differential that you have now you could purchase a 31 spline Ford traction lok, 31 spline axles, a set of gears (and what it takes to install them) and that's about it. The 31 spline traction lok fits right into our 8.8 carriers. Of course it has to be shimmed and installed properly.

 

[Chads95GT]

HG thanks for the info. im changing the gears in my rear end very soon, and i was going to buy a new trac lok instead of rebuilding mine, so if i only need to add the axles to upgrade what i was going to buy anyway, then i might as well do it.

 

[Venom351R]

pokageek, where is SGS automotive located? im near pittsburgh. they did your tune i take it? did u get a chip burned? and i will definately pm once i get into the fine details with this swap.i would also like to know what it takes to convert to 31 spline rear.another quick question about the swap, what did u guys do for the fuel rails? did u use them off the parts truck u got the motor from or buy new ones?

Im not sure about the fuel rails my 351 was already in when I got the car. As far as what the rear end just what hazard stated. I went with the Ford 31 Spline Trac lok limited slip with Moser 31 Spline axles. You will need wheel studs and other then that its about it. Dont run synth gear oil in the rear end. It will eventually eat the rear end it and will need to be rebuilt. Happend to a friend of mine w/ his Eaton. Just use reg Napa gear oil. You can go w/ a Eaton or a Auburn and thats almost what I went with as well but the price was just to far up there and the ford limited slip was a good price and a good quality part. Even it it does break it can always be rebuilt and you dont even have to worry about that unless your doing some track duty.

 

[Chads95GT]

redline, you still have to add the additive oil for the trac lok right? so i would just mix that with my 80 or 90 weight gear oil?

 

[Venom351R]

redline, you still have to add the additive oil for the trac lok right? so i would just mix that with my 80 or 90 weight gear oil?

Yes thats correct. I got my axles, and additive from Mustangs Unlimited, cant remember where I got the differential from and I just picked up gear oil and wheel studs at napa

 

[The O.G.]

im thinking a 347 can make about 400hp without the need for 351swap parts
you would have to pay for the extra machine work

a 351 just needs a hood,oil pan,intake,headers,flywheel,distributor,power steering ac bracket if using those,i thought the fuel rails need a some extra hose to work? probably a few other small things

supercharging , imo is not somethin i relate to reliabilty, and long trips.
tossing belts, crankcase ventilation concerns,heat,etc

all of these need will need a meter,injectors,fuel pump

i think the only reason to go 351 would be large stroke 393 ,410 etc

as far as stock axles and trans it will get u running

i think all these cars should have came with a 351 to begin with

 

[Chads95GT]

cs, i see your point about the 347 being easier. and i actually thought about that too. the only thing i didnt like about it was that there is no room to grow. the block would be maxed out at that point and that worries me a lil

 

[S351Saleen77]

Dont run synth gear oil in the rear end. It will eventually eat the rear end it and will need to be rebuilt. Happend to a friend of mine w/ his Eaton. Just use reg Napa gear oil.

Huh?? I have no idea what happened to your friends rear end but it was not the synthetic oil. I have used synthetic (Amsoil) for over 20yrs in ALL my rear ends and have NEVER had a failure. There can be many reasons why it failed.

Synthetic is so superior to conventional oil its well worth the money. I run it in the Motor/trans/rear end.

On rearends I would go with a Torsen T-2R but they are expensive, the regular Torsen or Detroit's True Trac are both good and cheaper. No Clutches to wear out, or in Auburns case no cones. They are probably $150 more but you don't have to rebuild clutches down the road. I read that Auburns only lasted 1 day at Bob Bondurants road race school in Mustangs. The cones couldn't take it I guess.

 

[Pokageek]

SGS is on 901 range end rd in dillburg pa 17019. its an hour and a half from me. They burn you a chip and be done with it. its less money and ur not spending every waking hour online trying to figure all the crap out that can go wrong. Been there done that, dont have time for it. Its a lot less money too.

On the 351, yea I think all these cars should have come with them too! Yep much stronger block too.

 

[Chads95GT]

thanks for the info pokageek, dillsburg is like 3 hrs from me. maybe i could trailer the car out there.